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My gun shoots "1 moa all day" and zeroing

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BenderRodriguez
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2:40p, 9/10/26
AG
And other rambling about groups, rifle accuracy, etc.

I'm mostly a handgun guy. Been doing more rifle stuff the last couple years, including going to a scoped carbine class I talked about at length in this thread.

Updating the rifle I used in that class and zeroing it today inspired this random stream of consciousness.

That class required " A quality semi-automatic carbine capable of at least 1.5 moa at least 5.56/ .223 caliber ".

So, 1.5 moa, or 1.57 inches at 100 yards. My factory 16" chrome lined LMT barrel shot this 10 shot group before class.



It was sufficient for the shooting we did (positional shooting off various props and barricades out to 700 yards), but more mechanical accuracy leaves more room for idiot shooter error, which is always nice, especially when I am that idiot, so I upgraded to a stainless steel SOLGW SPR barrel.

I have less than 50 rounds through it so I am still breaking it in, but shot my first 10 shot group with it today.



Shrinking my 10 shot group size by 15% before the barrel is even broken in is nice, but I was shooting some 3 shot groups while initially zeroing the gun, which leads me to this thread.

Here is a 3 shot group from the same gun and ammo today while refining my zero.



So two groups, both at 100 yards. Same gun, same ammo, same shooter, same day. Is my gun a 1.28 MOA gun, or a 0.43 MOA gun? (or 1.34 Shooters MOA or a 0.45 Shooters MOA gun if you don't like using actual MOA measurments).

I definitely know guys who would brag all day about their sub moa AR based on that.

For me, group shooting is just data. A 10 shot group lets me see how consistent (ly inconsistent) I am behind the gun, and how accuracy holds as the gun heats up. 5 different 5 shot groups would give me a really good idea what the gun is mechanically capable of doing. 5 cold bore shots fired on 5 different mornings might be a better data point for a deer rifle that is going to get shot once (hopefully).

Do you judge your rifle's accuracy based on 3 shot, 5 shot, 10 shot groups? Do you change what groups you shoot depending on what you're going to be doing with the gun? Or do you not give two hoots about any of this (why are you still reading, you knew this was going to be another inane ramble of mine).

tldr caveman summary: new gun fun. why shoot group one way vs other, to brag online or learn things. Grug tired now.

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Charismatic Megafauna
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2:47p, 9/10/26
AG
You should go back to the original barrel, precise or not you can't seem to hit the bullseye with the new one
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TxSquarebody
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2:57p, 9/10/26
All of my stuff, for now, is bolt action. Some factory barrels, a couple of Shilen barrels. No idea if it is correct, bit was always taught to disregard the first shot in a clean, cold bore and group the next three. Might just be poor information handed down over the generations. Either way, like you mentioned, the first shot is what counts when hunting. Always going to be a cold bore, may or may not be perfectly clean. In either case, the platform is most assuredly more accurate than I am! Good shooting, though!
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BenderRodriguez
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In reply to Charismatic Megafauna • 2:59p, 9/10/26
AG
Charismatic Megafauna said:
You should go back to the original barrel, precise or not you can't seem to hit the bullseye with the new one


If only the technology existed to adjust poi based on a previous group. Like a lever, or maybe a button that we could put on a scope.

You may have a million dollar idea here!
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Ark03
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In reply to TxSquarebody • 3:14p, 9/10/26
AG
TxSquarebody said:
All of my stuff, for now, is bolt action. Some factory barrels, a couple of Shilen barrels. No idea if it is correct, bit was always taught to disregard the first shot in a clean, cold bore and group the next three. Might just be poor information handed down over the generations. Either way, like you mentioned, the first shot is what counts when hunting. Always going to be a cold bore, may or may not be perfectly clean. In either case, the platform is most assuredly more accurate than I am! Good shooting, though!

I don't discount the first shot in a cold barrel, because that's the one that matters when hunting. But, I do disregard the first shot in a newly cleaned bore. Clean it, shoot a couple, and then you're good for the next few dozen.
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agsalaska
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3:37p, 9/10/26
AG
In my hunting rifles I care about three shot groups and whether the barrel produces a measurable difference between shot one and shot two. So if I change types or lots in, say , .243, I will do it twice. If I can get two good groups somewhere maybe 1.25 inches or better with no cold bore issues I am good to go.

With my ARs I don't really care about MOA as much as I do how it acts when the bore gets hot. My 6.5 Grendel for example shoots about 1-1.50 inches MOA with Barnes Vor-Tx, and doesn't seem to care if it's shots 1-3 or shots 20-23. But my Rock River 5.56 opens up a lot after a magazine or two. Doesnt really bother me as long as it doesn't get too wild.

I do chase sub MOA on deer rifles. And do it with a lot of older guns. So I tend to fail a lot more often than I like to admit.
I don’t say this in a braggedocious way. But it’s true. I’ve been right about everything.

-Donald J Trump
-9/22/2025



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meggy09
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3:43p, 9/10/26
AG
Hornady has done extensive analysis about sample size in relation to accuracy. I'd recommend listening, or I hear watching is better, to their podcasts titled "your groups are too small".

Lots of very interesting info. You ultimately have to decide how to apply it to your task at hand though.


For me I tend to judge all my rifles, comp or hunting, based off 10 round groups. A cherry picked 1/2" 3 shot group tells you nothing about your gun.
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schmellba99
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4:07p, 9/10/26
AG
I've been seeing a lot of the newest discussion/argument on what size group is the correct size group lately. Guess some people got bored and thought up something that had not really been talked about and launched a campaign.

Outside of a very few situations, for me anything more than a 5 shot group is kind of pointless. The only thing I've ever shot at 5 or more times with something other than a .22 is pigs, and even that is pretty rare and by the 5th shot they are on a dead run and honestly I'm just pulling the trigger at that point.

99.999% of what matters shot wise is that first shot. So for me, what a gun does cold bore is the most important because that first shot is the one that really counts because that is the one you are sending at the deer or elk or whatever game you are pursuing. Most of the time you get 1 shot and 1 shot only, so it is what needs to count and that is the accuracy measurement of a gun IMO.*

Any gun, no matter manufacturer, what trigger, scope, handguard, suppressor, barrel, etc. will see a degradation in accuracy as the barrel heats up. That is pure physics. What my gun does on Shot #50 compared to Shot #1 is pretty much pointless in anything but a true SHTF scenario.

And in that scenario, all I care about is whether it A) functions correctly and B) is minute of man in terms of accuracy.

*I suppose if you are shooting F class and other competition style, your metrics understandably change because you are shooting a lot in a relatively short period of time in those situations.
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BenderRodriguez
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In reply to meggy09 • 4:29p, 9/10/26
AG
meggy09 said:

Lots of very interesting info. You ultimately have to decide how to apply it to your task at hand though.

For me I tend to judge all my rifles, comp or hunting, based off 10 round groups. A cherry picked 1/2" 3 shot group tells you nothing about your gun.


Thats basically where I am at. Cherry picking one good small group and thinking the gun does X when it usually does Y is a bad way to make educated decisions about what size and how far out you can hit things.

But I also get why 5 or 10 cold bore shots superimposed into a group for a light weight bolt action hunting rifle is more useful than trying to bang out a 10 shot group with your 6lbs 300winmag.

Just laughed when I saw that small 3 shot group because of how many times I've seen claims about submoa groups on the internet, thus this word vomit
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CS78
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4:45p, 9/10/26
5 is sufficient for me. Group size is dependent on the use. Have a ruger 44 mag carbine. Shoots about 2.5" at 100. But nothing it gets pointed at would ever know it.
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BenderRodriguez
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In reply to CS78 • 4:56p, 9/10/26
AG
CS78 said:
5 is sufficient for me. Group size is dependent on the use. Have a ruger 44 mag carbine. Shoots about 2.5" at 100. But nothing it gets pointed at would ever know it.


Also true. Internet gets fixated on submoa.

My 1.5 moa gun did some work at that class.

As long as you know what your gun is doing, you can adjust and do the math to make hits.

Cant lie to yourself about how accurate it is to begin with though!
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meggy09
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In reply to schmellba99 • 5:46p, 9/10/26
AG
You're missing the point of the discussion, so are a few others in this thread. For me and I believe the OP it's not what the group size of a hunting gun firing a box of ammo as quickly as possible is. For a hunting gun you really should be letting the barrel cool to a reasonable level between shots, call 5 minutes or so.

You've got to look at the precision of your gun as a bell curve. This is where Hornady has done the work. These are made up numbers and I'm not a statistician, but it goes something like if your 10 shot group is 1" at 100y then you can expect your 20 shot group to be 1.5" and your 50 shot group to be 2" up to a point where you've shot enough rounds to map your guns true cone of fire.

So long as you start with a reasonable group size say, a 10 shot 1.5" at 100y, even your 50 shot result won't expand enough to make a difference shooting a WT under a feeder at 80 yards.

When you get to further distances it does play somewhat of a role. Start at 1.5" at 100y. That's 6" at 400y. And there is a percentage chance that that 1st shot on the deer at 400y will be one of those 50 that ended up at the edge of your 2.5" group at 100y. Now you just got unlucky and that shot is 5" outside your POA. Does it matter at 400y? Did you call the wind right? Were you shooting of a stable position similar to when you zeroed? Did you have a good trigger squeeze ?


https://www.hornady.com/blog/for-accurate-data-sample-size-matters
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CactusThomas
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9:00p, 9/10/26
AG
Cone of dispersion, along with velocity standard deviation only begin to have value at a sample size of 10. Revolver or rifle, I shoot 10+ shots.

ETA: I use 10+ shot groups for load development, zeroing and establishing ballistic tables. I shot plenty of 5 shot groups, but only with established, proven loads. Basically plinking/practicing
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BlueSmoke
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In reply to CactusThomas • 8:15a, 9/11/26
CactusThomas said:
Cone of dispersion,

This thread is relevant. Took my rifle out a few weeks back, trying various distances and ammo types. What did I learn in my aging state. Is there a more perishable skill than shooting? Ugh....

I had a different cone:



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Howdy Dammit
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8:36a, 9/11/26
AG
Don't understand any of this. Yall taking stuff too seriously. Would love to see my grandpas reaction to this with his duct taped wood stock
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Gunny456
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In reply to CactusThomas • 11:24a, 9/11/26
AG
This. I handload for all my rifles other than rimfire of course. I shoot 9 round groups but clean the barrel after the 9th. The first of the nine is strictly a fowling shot and I don't count it in the group. I also always allow the barrel to cool down to ambient temp before firing the next round.
TAMU Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences

Boat racing is like a beautiful woman.......expensive, high maintenance, but well worth the fun!
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schmellba99
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In reply to meggy09 • 11:42a, 9/11/26
AG
meggy09 said:
You're missing the point of the discussion, so are a few others in this thread. For me and I believe the OP it's not what the group size of a hunting gun firing a box of ammo as quickly as possible is. For a hunting gun you really should be letting the barrel cool to a reasonable level between shots, call 5 minutes or so.

You've got to look at the precision of your gun as a bell curve. This is where Hornady has done the work. These are made up numbers and I'm not a statistician, but it goes something like if your 10 shot group is 1" at 100y then you can expect your 20 shot group to be 1.5" and your 50 shot group to be 2" up to a point where you've shot enough rounds to map your guns true cone of fire.

So long as you start with a reasonable group size say, a 10 shot 1.5" at 100y, even your 50 shot result won't expand enough to make a difference shooting a WT under a feeder at 80 yards.

When you get to further distances it does play somewhat of a role. Start at 1.5" at 100y. That's 6" at 400y. And there is a percentage chance that that 1st shot on the deer at 400y will be one of those 50 that ended up at the edge of your 2.5" group at 100y. Now you just got unlucky and that shot is 5" outside your POA. Does it matter at 400y? Did you call the wind right? Were you shooting of a stable position similar to when you zeroed? Did you have a good trigger squeeze ?


https://www.hornady.com/blog/for-accurate-data-sample-size-matters

I'm not missing the point of the discussion, I just think the whole "you have to judge a gun based on a XX shot group" where XX is arbitrary is kind of silly in most applications and frankly is the latest talking point more than anything.

The odds of me ever shooting one of my deer rifles in a real world scenario enough times that I have to figure that my groups go from 1" to 1.5" is so low it is closer to zero than it is to anything else. So what good does that information do me when what I need to know is what that gun will do on shot #1 at whatever range I'm shooting at. And to know what it does at that range, you shoot it at that range in conditions as close as you can replicate to actual conditions.

Now, you get into competition shooting and like I said above, the metrics of what you need to know about the gun changes. In that case knowing what the rifle does as the shot string number increases is valuable information to the shooter because it can make a difference in hitting the 10 ring or not. So it is purely a function of what your needs are. If you truly want to know what the mechanical capabilities are of your gun, you need to clamp it in a vice that does not allow any aspect of the gun to move and one that you can apply a uniform trigger pull on in a repeatable fashion. That will tell you what your gun is capable of mechanically. The rest is on the shooter, variations in the ammo, environmental factors, etc. The Houston boys got really, really, really deep into this years ago.

For me, I want to know what the gun I am using does in the most practical application that I'm using it for. That means for a deer or elk rifle, a cold bore shot. Then a fairly quick follow up as well as a follow up a few minutes after the first. After that its pretty irrelevant to me because simply there is almost a zero chance that any other type of shot scenario is happening in a real world application. This is for hunting, not competition or battlefield scenarios.
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Gunny456
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12:28p, 9/11/26
AG
I actually use a Hyskore dampening shooting rest with a hydraulic trigger release for working up my loads and determining the true capability of the rifle. It basically takes all the human error out of the equation.

I use it to develop my loads and gun set up.
Then, when I've got the load and gun figured out and shooting absolutely the best it can, I shoot the gun as normal on the bench or however I want knowing all the "error" can only be blamed on my shooting ability alone.
I believe this helps me concentrate on improving my shooting abilities and techniques.

I simply just enjoy making every gun I own shoot the best it can by working up custom loads, and having the mechanics of the gun working the best it can by having the best, trigger, barrel, action and barrel bedding etc. as possible.

I do it cause I enjoy working on the guns, working up the loads, and of course, the shooting itself.
It's relaxing and fun to me to do that…and it gives me pride in knowing I have made that particular gun shoot the best it can.

Does it help me hunt better or harvest an animal better? I would think it helps. But that isn't the sole reason I spend all the time and money building the loads and the gun up. I do that because I like shooting,…. I like doing the research on trying different, bullets, powders and loading techniques, …. I like working on the guns and it's fun and relaxing and self rewarding to me.

I'm also double blessed because my wife also enjoys doing it with me as well. She is as much into it as I am…and it's something we enjoy doing together.
TAMU Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences

Boat racing is like a beautiful woman.......expensive, high maintenance, but well worth the fun!
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BrazosDog02
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In reply to schmellba99 • 12:56p, 9/11/26
AG
I agree with you but I think the OP is enjoying the process of excellence.

I'm one step "less" than you. For my gun to be its "best" for hunting, I pick a round from the shelf at academy that has a picture of a deer on it, I send one round down the pipe before the season opens cold. If I hit within 2" of the point of aim, I'm happy. If I do this 10 times, many are going to be bullseye so I don't fret over it. Maybe I was off. Maybe the gun was off. Maybe the scope needs one click. Maybe the gun doesn't like the ammo. I don't really care. I'm sending 180 grains down range so if I'm minute of dinner plate, the animal is going to die and if it doesn't DRT, it won't run but 15 yards. I've never had one go further.

Getting perfection and developing loads isn't my area of interest but for a lot of folks it is, and that's cool. If it weren't for perfectionists, I couldn't rely on the process I use. lol.
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CentralTXag
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3:16p, 9/11/26
AG
This thread has piqued my interest. I generally use 5-shot groups vs 10-shots due to time/patience constraints and wanting to shoot other guns as well. I've found it significantly harder to keep a good group over 5-shots vs. 3 shots, so I feel comfortable with a good 5-shot group. Maybe now that I'm retired I'll start shooting more 10-shot groups!
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Flack
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2:45p, 9/12/26
3 shot groups are not useless but most people use them incorrectly. They are good for finding out what ammo/load the rifle doesn't like. If it doesn't shoot 3 shots well enough for what you are wanting to do, there's no point in wasting ammo or components shooting more. Also useful for getting a good idea of pressure/velocity/etc. as well.

But target shooting and reloading are separate hobbies from hunting or being prepared to use a carbine for self defense. If you are shooting at whitetail (or bad guys) at under 150 yards then 5 moa is enough to get it done. You have to try pretty hard to find a modern rifle that has everything torqued correctly that shoots worse than that.
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BenderRodriguez
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In reply to BrazosDog02 • 3:27p, 9/13/26
AG
BrazosDog02 said:
I agree with you but I think the OP is enjoying the process of excellence.

I'm one step "less" than you. For my gun to be its "best" for hunting, I pick a round from the shelf at academy that has a picture of a deer on it, I send one round down the pipe before the season opens cold. If I hit within 2" of the point of aim, I'm happy. If I do this 10 times, many are going to be bullseye so I don't fret over it. Maybe I was off. Maybe the gun was off. Maybe the scope needs one click. Maybe the gun doesn't like the ammo. I don't really care. I'm sending 180 grains down range so if I'm minute of dinner plate, the animal is going to die and if it doesn't DRT, it won't run but 15 yards. I've never had one go further.

Getting perfection and developing loads isn't my area of interest but for a lot of folks it is, and that's cool. If it weren't for perfectionists, I couldn't rely on the process I use. lol.


It's a bit of the reverse of excellence that I'm worried about with my shooting.

I'm trying to wring out what accuracy I can at baseline from the gun and ammo (without reloading because I don't have the time or patience to do that without going insane) to make up for being less than excellent.

My original 1.5 MOA barrel is capable of shooting a ~7.5 MOA group at 500 yards.

IF there is zero wind, zero velocity difference between rounds, zero manufacturing defects in the bullets so they have identical BC, zero errors in my shot placement, trigger squeeze, recoil management, zero wobble in the rifle......

And the class I was taking where we were shooting at 500+ we were usually doing it from non conventional positions, like a cheap aluminum folding ladder, or off a tree branch, etc, sometimes shooting at 12" diameter round steel.

All the sudden that 1.5 MOA group at 100 doesn't leave me much error room for hitting size of target I'm being asked to engage at 500.

Minimizing my cone of fire as much as possible helps give me more wiggle room in the sucking at shooting department.
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BenderRodriguez
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3:30p, 9/13/26
AG
Most of yall seem to know whats up with this thread. I'm not saying "shoot 10 shot groups only or you're wrong".

I just like working on the "why" behind what we do.

For a deer rifle that's going to be used exclusively for one shot at 50 yards in a stand, 3 shot group to confirm zero, or 5 cold bore shots taken on different days, is more than adequate to figure out whether your gun is doing what you need it to do.

Just know why you're doing what you're doing beyond "well someone on the internet/at the gunstore/granpappy said I should do it this way".

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Martels Hammer
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12:17p, 9/14/26
I recently changed my 18" AR barrel to a 16" from SOLGW. Its their precision model. Paired with 77 grain Super VEL ammo I was able to hit a 12" gong at 400 yards something like 8 of 10 tries using a Sig Multi Dot Reticle and 3X magnifier Sunday.

Not impressive shooting for most of you but for me, shooting with a dot and flip over at 400 on that size target seemed pretty good.
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DVM97
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In reply to BenderRodriguez • 1:50p, 9/14/26
AG
BenderRodriguez said:
Charismatic Megafauna said:
You should go back to the original barrel, precise or not you can't seem to hit the bullseye with the new one


If only the technology existed to adjust poi based on a previous group. Like a lever, or maybe a button that we could put on a scope.

You may have a million dollar idea here!

This made me laugh pretty good! Mostly because the second I start messing with the scope and trying to "fix" or adjust things, I generally make it worse! It's taken me a minute to get it down, but I've finally figured out how to get my rifles shooting straight.
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