Outdoors
Sponsored by

Outboard motor elevation on transom?

3,148 Views | 48 Replies | Last: 12 days ago by CS78
Towns03
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Does anyone have an idea how to properly set the height of an outboard on a center console?

I've had this boat for 7 years (bought new) and I'm repowering next week from this 150hp to a 225hp. The current has a 25" shaft but I'm thinking it always been too long. The water level sitting still with the moto all the way jacked up is at 26" (see pic).

The dealer says they've installed both 20" and 25" shafts. What is the right call?




Towns03
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
P.s. the 150 is for sale. 175 hours, I think. 2018 model.
fullback44
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
If you have a tunnel hull I would think the highest you want the propeller is middle to upper tunnel max (right above the bottom of the hull if possible)… as far as depth of the shaft, that probably really only matters if your running skinny where you will want the propeller in the tunnel.. that's the way my El Pescador is set up…. I will measure how low my propeller is below the hull tmrw morning when I'm at the boat. One way to test it is run the boat w the jack plate all the way down and mark your speed and positioning. Then raise it up a little at a time and see if the speed is increasing, if it's too deep you may get too much drag and it's going to actually slow you down. I'm guess the answer is only 3-4 inches below the hull. I'll report back tmrw

That middle pic looks about like mine when it's all the way down, mine is possibly a few inches lower but to me that looks good. I can't get you that answer until I go fishing this Friday
Towns03
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
This is a stepped hull
fullback44
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Towns03 said:

This is a stepped hull

Ah- ok. To me that prop still looks good if it's all the way down, maybe a little lower. But I'm no expert - Im just going off how my boat is setup. But I have the tunnel. Also the rougher the water the more you probably want it down in the water… smooth water less deep. Let's see what the experts say… there are a few on here- lol
BQ_90
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Whatever gunny says, he's THE boat guy IMO
fullback44
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
BQ_90 said:

Whatever gunny says, he's THE boat guy IMO

Ha- this is definitely the answer. I'm curious if my answer is close or way off base. lol
CS78
How long do you want to ignore this user?
When you say stepped, do you mean stepped bottom along the sides, typically meant to increase speed and efficiency? Or stepped as in a key way cut into the bottom center of the transom? Kinda like a short tunnel?

Do you have any pics from behind that show the motor in relation to the transom.

Pictures with the boat in the water at rest don't mean a lot. If you have a lot of at rest squat, its going to look like the prop is sitting low but it might be ok at speed.

Any chance you could get someone to stand in the back of the boat and take pics of the cavitation plate when running?

What is the model of boat?

The fact that the dealer says either 20 or 25" seems a little concerning to me. Even with the jackplate, one or the other should be the obvious answer.

What brand of 225 are you putting on?
Towns03
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Pic of the stepped rear.

I thought the resting pic was important because it means when it's cranked up to its highest position the boat requires 26" of water to operate (at idle). That's way too much for a Florida flats boat, I think.

It's a blazer bay 2220 GTS




SGrem
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
You want the antiventilation plate .5" to 1" above the bottom of the keel when motor is tilted level to match a level keel. This can be a general baseline.

Same applies for top of the tunnel. Then can start to tweak for performance and shallow water ability.

What kind of hull do you have? If you need to raise it higher look at a low water pickup like Zephyr Cove Customs.
CS78
How long do you want to ignore this user?
The fact that you have the current 25" motor mounted with the bottom bolt holes and the plate is all the way up, Im thinking a 20" with it bolted lower, should be perfect. Do you ever take it in bigger seas? Could result in some cavitation when traversing larger waves but hard to say for sure. Inshore, you'll be a lot happier.

The 20" shaft will definitely help you to idle shallower. Part of your problem is that 10" Bobs jackplate. It's a common setup for improved performance, but it moves the heavy motor further back which results in more squat at rest or low speed. Good for speed and MPG but bad for idling shallow. I prefer a 6" but its probably not worth changing at this point. Your's is also setup with wedges which add even more set back.

What brand motor are you putting on? If it's a 225 suzuki, that's a big heavy engine. It's going to make your boat squat more than it does now. If you want to stick with suzuki, I'd go 200 I4. Or Merc will save you a bunch of weight in the 225. The new v6 mercs are known for being able to run an inch higher than most motors.

ETA, do you know why the wedges are on there? Typically used for faster planeing or if you're having trouble keeping the bow down at speed. Might be able to remove them with new motor.
RethinkTheWeekend
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Gunny and Sgrem are who to listen to.
Can you teach me what the "wedges" are? I am not familiar with those on Jack plates so just trying to learn and I can't see anything in the pics. Thanks
Gunny456
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Howdy. Was at a long meeting tonight and just got home and saw your post.

The Blazer 2220 GTS is spec'd to have a 20" transom height and therefore should have a 20" shaft engine. This would be called a "Long Shaft" in industry terms. 25" shaft engines are called "Extra Long Shaft".
Blazer allegedly had some performance issues with the 2220 GTS (It would cavitate and blow out coming on plane and sometimes cavitate in heavy swells) So, as a remedy, some dealers started rigging the 2220 GTS with 25" Extra Long Shaft engines. They would then use hydraulic jack plates with large set back dimensions (like the 10" Bobs on your boat) and mount the engines all the way up on the bottom hole....and raise the jack plates all the way up to get as much as possible of the lower unit out of the water, to increase top end performance that they were loosing from the extra drag of the 25" shaft engine. Very counter productive.

The offset, (Or "step" as you are calling it) is actually in correct terms called a water flow foil. It is on the bottom of your transom, it is designed to allow water that is coming off the primary pad or running surface to rise up faster, (for lack of better terms) and allow higher engine height settings...which gives less drag and increases top end speed.
Sometimes dealers and/or consumers add an additional after market set back plates of various dimensions to enhance the above effect even more.
The additional set back typically will allow the engine to have a better "leverage" or better "lift" to give better bow lift which can oftentimes increase top end speed.
However there is always a trade off when you do that.......moving the engine back also moves the boats center of gravity back. This can slow down how fast the boat comes on plane, (called "hole shot"), increase how high the bow rises when its coming on a plane, cause the boat to porpoise at slow speeds and cause the boat to have ill handling characteristics in turns. So even though you may increase your boats top end speed by having a greater set back distance you typically hurt its performance in all the ways I just described.
Now lets talk about jack plates.....jack plates are made to raise the engine straight up or "jack up" the engine...hence the name "jack plate". Why do you want to raise the engine up? Two reasons...1.) By raising the engine up you get more lower unit out of the water which decreases drag and increases top end speed.
However, to get the full benefit of raising the engine up you need to use specific props designed to have their blades "surfacing"..but still able to have sufficient "bite" to hold the water well and not cavitate.
2.) To be able to run in more shallow water.

So, to summarize, it is important to understand the advantages and disadvantages of a "set back" and how to properly use and gain the benefits of a "jack plate"....and the differences between horizontal set back and vertical lifting by a jack plate.

If a boat hull is designed correctly it should not need an excessive amount of "set back" to make it perform correctly. I question the need and or advantages/disadvantages of the large set back your boat now has on it.
That much set back may be hurting your overall performance rather than helping it.

The other issue is why it has wedges installed on the plate? These wedges are are allowing your engine the ability to have about 5 degrees of additional "under trim". This is usually done to stop porposing at slow speeds and to improve hole shot...which is aggravated or caused by having the large set back plate distance...which typically actually causes porposing and poor hole shot.

With all that being said, understand that I cannot give a definitive accurate assessment of your set up without seeing the boat in person and actually running it. With solely what I see in your pictures, it is just my best guess, summation/opinion that the 25" shaft engine, the large set back plate dimension, and the wedges all have been added to for a performance reason. Again, I would have to actually see the boat and run it to be absolutely sure.

As far as the correct engine height, on a correct set up, I would start by mounting it on the 2nd hole up on the jack plate and adjusting the jackplate vertical height as needed.....Start with the plate all the way down, and trim at full undertrim. Then put the boat on plane and adjust the trim amount and jack plate height for the best performance.
TAMU Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences

Boat racing is like a beautiful woman.......expensive, high maintenance, but well worth the fun!
dr_boogs
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Gunny, this is gold. You are a treasure to a newer boat owner/captain.

Not to derail, but can you educate me/us and expand on the downsides of "setback" of the motors in the context of a boat/hull like the Regulator 26 that mounts it's twin engines on a giant bracket off the transom. I was told that it's there to make it ride like a 30-32 foot boat, I was never told there were downsides. So, isn't that giant bracket the ultimate example of extreme set-back? Why did they do that with the Regulator, and why doesn't it have the performance issues you're describing?

Disclaimer - I've fished a lot of hours on my buddy's 26 but it's an inshore/offshore boat with twin 250s and without jack plates.
CS78
How long do you want to ignore this user?
rev 4 or power tech sce 4 on prop?
CS78
How long do you want to ignore this user?
RethinkTheWeekend said:

Can you teach me what the "wedges" are? I am not familiar with those on Jack plates so just trying to learn and I can't see anything in the pics.

Gunny explained it well. Usually used to add more downward trim. Sometimes people will flip them to allow more upward trim so they can get the motors completely out of the water in a wet slip. Typical sizes are 2, 5, 10 degrees.


CS78
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Gunny456 said:

Blazer allegedly had some performance issues with the 2220 GTS (It would cavitate and blow out coming on plane and sometimes cavitate in heavy swells) So, as a remedy, some dealers started rigging the 2220 GTS with 25" Extra Long Shaft engines. They would then use hydraulic jack plates with large set back dimensions (like the 10" Bobs on your boat) and mount the engines all the way up on the bottom hole....and raise the jack plates all the way up to get as much as possible of the lower unit out of the water, to increase top end performance that they were loosing from the extra drag of the 25" shaft engine. Very counter productive.


I never cease to be amazed by what some manufacturers and dealers will do when rigging a new boat. All of that rather than just making a prop change that would probably fix it. It seemed odd to me that OPs boat had wedges but he purchased new and didnt seem like he would have been involved in the decision to add them. Meant someone was searching for an answer before he even got the boat.

Towns03
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Great info!

I've been toying with the jack plate this last week, trying to simulate a shorter shaft. There was a fair amount of cavitation. I want to go back and run it again today knowing that's what I'm looking for.

An alternative is to just trade this thing in for something different. Other than the issues getting into skinny water this boat is perfect for us, though. Light weight, perfect amount of storage, handles chop well.
Towns03
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
So, there's a different style prop that will reduce cavitation?
SGrem
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Rev 4 with a little added cup is a good choice for that hull.
Gunny456
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Great question doc!
Funny you ask about Regulator as my wife was the Texas and gulf coast factory rep for them for a few years. We are good friends with the owners Joan and Owen Maxwell. They built a very fine product.

To answer your question. Regulator and other boat companies, example Skeeter boats, design their hulls for the set back brackets or plates. In other words, the hulls are designed to have those brackets built to those set back distances to get optimum performance out of the boats and the brackets or set backs consequently don't cause all the ill handling characteristics I noted above.
You can not buy a Regulator or a Skeeter without the brackets and set back plates installed.......they are not aftermarket add ons. Boats that are built and originally delivered with engines mounted directly attached to the transom were never designed to have the aftermarket set backs added to them. The hulls were engineered to run with the engines directly mounted to the transoms and work throughout the entire performance envelope of that hull. I.E. low end and top in performance characteristics that were a good compromise throughout its performance envelope.
As an example (and I'm not knocking a product) Ranger boats have never been known for running fast but the boats gave a good ride and perform well. Guys would add large set back plates on their Rangers to allow greater bow lift and to make the boat carry weight better and therefore run faster. However the boats then would porpoise really bad at slow to midrange speeds, would have a very slow hole shot and very high bow rise during the hole shot, and would not turn well at all. This was all caused because the hull was never designed to have the engine set back that far. The set back might make it run a little faster and carry weight better but it destroyed other performance characteristics of the boat.
It is almost impossible to design a boat hull that will do it all.......if you build a boat for top end speed it will suffer in low end performance. If you build a boat for low end performance it will suffer on the top end.....its all a matter of physics and aerodynamics.
So why do some manufacturers design their hulls to have to have engines mounted on set back brackets?
In Regulators case they use the offset brackets to move the engines back into better water with less turbulence coming off the V-running service of the boat. This also allows a higher initial engine height setting which allows less lower unit in the water and therefore decreases drag giving better fuel economy and performance.
Secondly it gives a nice swim platform for people to stand on...especially if using the boat for diving etc.
Thirdly it gives a very nice clean rigging set up for cables, wiring harnesses etc.
Skeeter, along with some other high performance boat builders, designs their hulls for the set backs to also primarily allow the engine prop to be in better less turbulent water coming off the running pad and to allow the engines to be run at higher engine height settings for greater fuel economy and more importantly, higher top end speed.
Secondly, the plate allows a very precise engine height adjustment (infinitely accurate adjustments of 1/16" or so) rather than only being able to adjust engine height in 4 one inch adjustments with the engine mounting bolts.
The general rule of thumb to remember is that if you, as a consumer, can purchase a boat with the engine directly mounted to the transom and no set back as standard equipment, it was NOT designed for a set back plate, and if you then add one as a aftermarket piece, it will hurt the overall performance of the boat in some way.
Regulator, and others, do not use set back brackets to make the boat ride like a longer boat, that is simply words from a boat salesman..
TAMU Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences

Boat racing is like a beautiful woman.......expensive, high maintenance, but well worth the fun!
Gunny456
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
This. Good info.
TAMU Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences

Boat racing is like a beautiful woman.......expensive, high maintenance, but well worth the fun!
CS78
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Towns03 said:

So, there's a different style prop that will reduce cavitation?


Yes 4 blades in general can be ran higher. Bravo 1 will run really high but blades are thin and will wear down quickly if you grind it in any kind of sand. Rev4 is really popular and blade tips are a little thicker. Don't think itll run quite as high as the bravo 1. The power tech I mentioned is popular. I have one that was completely rebuilt by a custom prop guy from the Texas coast but I've never ran a stock one. Pretty much any 4 blade will gain a minimum of an inch in height. Some a lot more. Stay away from Solas.
Gunny456
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
If you don't have "clean" water flow to the prop all props can cavitate.....regardless of number of blades or design type. The right hand side of the lower unit, or the downstroke of the rotation of prop is when it is actually doing its most pulling or forward thrust in a right hand or clockwise rotation. From about the 9:00 to 1:00 position of its rotation it is just about surfacing, if set up correctly, and not doing much to move the boat forward at that point. That's why a phenomenon called "P-Factor" comes into play.... the prop is doing 85% of its pulling on the right or starboard side of the lower unit which causes the common "right hand steering torque" or rather the boat trying to turn or pull right when at top speeds. Typically the higher the engine height, the greater the steering torque...because of increased "p-Factor".

Anything mounted on the right or starboard side of the transom, like a depth finder transducer, water temp probe, livewell intake, speed sensor, etc. can cause disruption of clean water to the prop on the right side where it is trying to do its most pulling thrust. It does not take much...I have seen a tiny temp probe cause cavitation of a prop.

Yes. There are props designed to "hold the water" better than others. Props are a whole other rabbit hole you can go down as they have very specific performance characteristics based on their designs.....blade geometry, number of blades, shape of the blades, rake of the blades...all make a difference.
TAMU Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences

Boat racing is like a beautiful woman.......expensive, high maintenance, but well worth the fun!
SGrem
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Such great info and explanations. I love boats.
Gunny456
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Yes sir. I agree.
TAMU Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences

Boat racing is like a beautiful woman.......expensive, high maintenance, but well worth the fun!
Gunny456
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Yes sir the 2220 GTS is a good boat.
TAMU Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences

Boat racing is like a beautiful woman.......expensive, high maintenance, but well worth the fun!
Gunny456
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Dr. Boogs.
Here is a simple basic Aggie drawing of the concept of how a set back works. You can see how…by moving the outboard back allows cleaner water to the prop and also allows higher engine running height.
This set back can also be built into the hull mold itself or as a bracket. If the hull is actually designed for it, it works really well.
The main thing to grasp is the fact that the water flow goes up at an angle once it leaves the running surface.
Hope this makes sense. My drawing greatly exaggerates the flow angle going up but I wanted to illustrate how it works….and how you are able to raise your engine much higher.
TAMU Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences

Boat racing is like a beautiful woman.......expensive, high maintenance, but well worth the fun!
Gunny456
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Good info!
TAMU Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences

Boat racing is like a beautiful woman.......expensive, high maintenance, but well worth the fun!
dr_boogs
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Thanks as always Gunny!
Gunny456
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
You're welcome sir. Have a blessed day.
TAMU Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences

Boat racing is like a beautiful woman.......expensive, high maintenance, but well worth the fun!
fullback44
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
We need to save this thread, I have learned more about how outboards are setup (and why they do it each way) in 30-40 min of reading and re reading this thread than I've learned in 20 years of owning shallow water fishing boats. Gunny, Good stuff and thanks.
BQ_90
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
a sticky thread with just boat stuff would work, make gunny the moderator of it
Aggieangler93
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
So when you add a second counter rotating prop, like on a TRP lower unit, does it negate the strong starboard side pull, due to it also pulling strong port side? They in effect cancel that right-turn tendency out?

I am asking because I have only really run TRP lower units for the last 35 years and cannot recall any of them trying to turn like the single propped boats I have rented on vacation, etc.

Also, does a keyslot transom effect any of this? Seems like it would make it slower, although the full tunnel may make up for that bad water problem when the tunnel is fully hydrated? With a tunnel like our 22 foot Majek Illusion has, I am sure I am losing some top end speed, but being able to run in 5 inches of water, is what I got her for. I just have to be able to go fast enough to keep it moving through those spots to the deeper water beyond. I know some folks chase speed, however I am not one. I want to get murderously skinny. LOL

What effect does prop pitch have on the hole shot vs. speed? Does more cupping allow a better hole shot, but comes with more drag?
Class of '93 - proud Dad of a '22 grad and a '26 student!
Gunny456
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I'll try to answer each of your questions best I can:

1.) Yes. The TRP dual counter rotating lower unit eliminates all "P-Factor" ..therefore no steering torque. It also creates more horizontal lift of the entire hull lift....not just bow lift.
2.) Yes. Pure tunnel hulls will be much slower than convention hulls. Pocket tunnels are not quite as slow as full tunnels. Tunnels designs, pocket or full, do not turn real well.
As you say its a trade off.....tunnels are not near as fast as conventional hull designs but they can run really shallow of course.
Another thing that greatly affects shallow water capability is weight. That's why all the performance flats boats are so very light. Weight equals speed....the lighter you make a boat, theoretically the faster it can run.
Its just physics and simply a weight vs horsepower ratio.
3.)Props are very complicated and are surrounded by many myths....it's like asking which is the best caliber to hunt deer with.
There are some very basics though:

A.) You want your prop to allow the engine to develop its horsepower and to stay within the recommended wide open throttle range (WOT) that the engine manufacturer suggest for the particular motor.
Most will give a WOT rpm range of between 5500-6000 rpm...with most optimum being 5800-6000 typically.
Pitch is how far the boat will travel in one complete revolution, considering 0% slip. So a 25" pitch prop in one complete revolution will theoretically move the boat forward 25". Think of the pitch of prop like gears on a manual transmission of a truck....the lower the pitch the more power and rpm's you will turn....the higher the pitch the more speed you can obtain…..but the limiting factor is the recommended WOT rpm range we just talked about above.
Every boat/motor combination has to have the correct pitch/diameter prop to allow it to operate at the recommended WOT rpm....so there are limitations.
To answer your question: Typically the lower pitch prop will give you a faster hole shot than a high pitch propeller...but then if you go to too low a pitch you will over rev the top recommended rpm at WOT....so you gotta find a prop that gives you a reasonable hole shot and keeps it within the recommended WOT rpm range.
4.) Your question on cupping blades on a prop....What does cupping do for the performance of the boat?
Excellent question!. It depends on where the "cup" is applied. If the cup is on the tips of the trailing edge of the blades it will create more bow lift....sometimes giving more speed or making the boat carry weight in the bow better. However, adding more cup will usually, not always, but usually lower your rpm a bit.
Cupping the long edge of the trailing edge of the prop will make it hold water better in turns and also will help lift the entire hull vertically instead of just bow lift.
Cupping the leading edge of a prop will help your hole shot quickness but will typically slow your top end speed down somewhat.
I could write 50 pages of info about props. On top of the above you have many different styles of props...I.E. Chopper props, Cleaver props, high rake props, low rake props, over the hub exhaust props, through hub exhaust props, Mod V-P props, two blade props, three blade props, four blade props even five blade props.
Each one being for a specific application and performance envelope.
Hope this answers your questions?
Boats are fun!
TAMU Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences

Boat racing is like a beautiful woman.......expensive, high maintenance, but well worth the fun!
Page 1 of 2
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.