Respectfully Gunny, how many people do you know who work in supplying restaurants/in commercial kitchens?

Me too! Also poultry.

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since SeaD didn't reveal the names of the forty establishments that served imported shrimp

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If they're not releasing the names of the offending restaurants, I don't know that anything will be accomplished. I can't avoid a restaurant if I don't know which ones to avoid.

OnlyForNow said:

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I do wonder about usda beef grades though at some places.

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Grades are given to the carcass at the processing facility before it is completely broken down. If restaurants are selling Choice as Prime that is obviously an issue, but they have nothing to do with the grading process.

NM.

https://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/bait-and-switch-ucla-study-finds-fish-fraud-runs-rampant

Article from 2017 testing sushi at LA restaurants. Unfortunately this is not a new issue. Simple fact is once you remove the head and skin, it's really hard to tell some fish meat apart from others. And as the article points out this isn't a simple fix. From catching to processing to shipping to selling, there are a lot of places in the supply chain fish can be mislabeled or even mistaken for something else. I'd guess a lot of times the restaurants are getting fooled just as much as the consumers.

This is precisely what I mean, restaurants selling non-prime cuts as prime.

Unless you really know meat well it's fairly hard to know the difference - even when seeing it uncooked.


Granted, I think that a majority (that's only 51%+) of this board would be able to pick out a prime ribeye vs a choice ribeye; but when you're talking about NY Strips, sirloins, the accuracy is gonna go down.

Came across this program at LuLu's in Gulf Shores several years ago, thought it was a novel concept at the time, appears to be very much needed now. What is it?...a QR code on a toothpick stuck in your fillet from waiter with all your fish details.

Fish Trax Marketplace program - Fish Trax Marketplace Business Locator

The local shrimpers released the names of the restaurants they do supply/have filed suit against the liars.

It's doubtful, but possible I suppose, that the liar is a fish monger - but that would be hard for the folks claiming "local" shrimp.

I could see a fish monger faking "gulf" shrimp.

I'm in the camp that the modern grading is jacked up. I think we feed a bunch of cattle that "grade" good and doesn't transfer to how it eats.

I'm disappointed with nearly every prime cut I buy compared to being impressed about half the time when I buy select.

See, that's what I'm confused by. I always assumed disappointing "prime" was just fraud, because there are reliable sources of very good prime.

(Bolner's steaks were always excellent. Morton's has always been good, IME, etc.)

Grading is obviously a subjective process, so saying disappointing prime meat is fraud is a really big jump. The inspector isn't grading every single piece of meat, so it's entirely probable for different cuts to be subjectively different on any graded carcass. Now if someone is buying cheaper grades and selling as more expensive grades that is fraud, but that is where it helps to be knowledgeable on what to look for in certain cuts of meat. A little tougher in a restaurant, but you could always ask to see your cut of meat before cooking if your truly concerned.

guadalupeag said:

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OnlyForNow said:

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I do wonder about usda beef grades though at some places.

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Grades are given to the carcass at the processing facility before it is completely broken down. If restaurants are selling Choice as Prime that is obviously an issue, but they have nothing to do with the grading process.

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A lot of the grading process now is done electronically as well if I'm not mistaken too. Or at least it seems I saw that on a documentary a few years back about somethign or other - basically a big bar code looking scanner goes over the cut of meat and it is graded.

Tilapia can be either very good or very bad. It all depends on how it is raised. By nature, tilapia are bottom feeders, meaning they eat along the bottom of a fresh water pond. As such, their flesh builds up a naturally occurring organic compound found in the muck called Geosmin. It is responsible for that earthy, musty 'off' flavor one tastes in tilapia.

However, flavorful tilapia, that lacks Geosmin can be produced if the fish are kept in cages that prevent access to the bottom of the pond.

One other perspective...beef, pork, and poultry are processed under the authority of the USDA. That means government inspectors are at the plants 100% of the time. Seafood is under the U.S. Department of Commerce and does not require regular inspections...which can lead to unethical production practices.

just like with beef...."save for well done" ...except its "save for fried" or "save for etouffee"

I was thinking about this, with us.

Given how few wholesale customers we have, that two of them bought cheaper products and tried to sell it as our stuff, I think it is quite common.

Not 90%, but it is definitely an issue.

Passing off a vendors work as their own, is ubiquitous, and just something people have to accept/take as a compliment. (If they are really good, unless the restaurant is really known for it, those "in house" desserts/bread/baked goods are being made by local vendors.)

Gunny456 said:

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I respectfully will disagree on the amount of "food fraud" that is actually out there.
The fact remains simply that if folks go to a restaurant and get crappy tasting food, that word travels fast, and regardless of how much TV chef shows they do or advertising, they eventually close up.
Thats why the restaurant industry has one of the highest failure rates of business ventures … you either build a reputation of serving good food or not. If not, folks don't come to eat at your place anymore.
There are many restaurants across the country that have been in business for generations. They have accomplished that by two things:
Serving a good product, and taking care of and respecting their customers….. just like most successful businesses.

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You're right about some of this, but the fact is that there are restaurants out there, including chains, that serve downright atrocious food and not only stay in business but thrive. Applebees is one example. I've eaten at 3 different locations over a period of 30 years (8-10 times total) and NEVER had a good meal. The only reason I went after the first or second time was other people did the picking and I just decided to go along, or, like last Thanksgiving, they were open and our sink stopped up that morning or the night before, preventing us from cooking.

There are many other examples of where I've said, "how in the hell do these people stay in business..." Of course, my tastes may be different from others, but what throws that off is I pretty much like (or did like) the places that are/were popular. I marvel at several local joints that serve food I consider inedible. They keep going and going.

Additionally, it isn't just the food. Some people go to restaurants either to drink, or the alcohol they do drink masks the bad tastes of food. For those, like me, who don't drink, the stench, if you will, comes through loud and clear. Service plays a huge role in how people come back.

I've represented many restaurants and individual owners in my career -- both in a strictly legal sense as well as in business consulting. In my opinion the common denominator in failures is not food quality but capitalization. The undercapitalized restaurant WILL fail. Those that can sustain 90 days to a year of problems without going under tend to last. As long as they get the help they need to survive and thrive, they tend to come back. You're right about word getting around and it is true that some restaurants can not able to sustain constant poor reviews. However, food quality is but one of many considerations and it often isn't the most important one in terms of failure. It also isn't the most important one in terms of success, either.

Sadly.

guadalupeag said:

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https://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/bait-and-switch-ucla-study-finds-fish-fraud-runs-rampant

. And as the article points out this isn't a simple fix. From catching to processing to shipping to selling, there are a lot of places in the supply chain fish can be mislabeled or even mistaken for something else.

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Except that's not a thing for main domestic proteins. At least not on purpose because the second an auditor from the USDA walks in distribution center or cold storage facility **** gets real. Chain of command, documentation, and logistic control is important. Even down to chicken feet and paws.

This is more of an issue of there isn't much regulation, not could it be done.

We import some expensive seafood from places that take this much more seriously than the USA. I'm talking controlling the product from grow pen to the box in cutting edge 9 figure facilities. Less than 48 hours from last meal to freeze packed or air freighted globally. And we don't mess with the lesser stuff for these reasons. It's just a mass farmed, low cost number game.

ToddyHill said:

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One other perspective...beef, pork, and poultry are processed under the authority of the USDA. That means government inspectors are at the plants 100% of the time. Seafood is under the U.S. Department of Commerce and does not require regular inspections...which can lead to unethical production practices.

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This. And it doesn't stop at the plant.

Is the USDA there to make sure the chickens being processed are chickens? Or are they there to make sure proper safe food handling practices are being followed? This isn't an issue with domestic proteins because no one is trying to pass off wild hog as domestic pork. Fish on the other hand is entirely different, especially when you are talking wild caught. The USDA does inspect farm raised catfish, so this isn't an issue of lack or regulation, it's an issue of logistics. And once the fish is processed even some of the best chefs in the world can't tell the difference between expensive and cheap.

The issue with fish is more akin to the mob cutting expensive olive oils with cheap neutral oils and then reselling as the real thing. When it comes to some white fish it is really hard to tell them apart. And as any article shows this isn't one or two bad apples, it is industry wide. Greater oversite sounds great, but where? We sending inspectors out on every commercial fishing vessel? Are they staying with the catch the whole way from processing to distribution to restaurant? I'm not saying it's impossible, just a different process than domesticated proteins. I'm sure some countries do it better, but I'm guessing fish is a much bigger part of their diet than Americans.

Saw this about a non profit in South Carolina suing local restaurants who claim to serve local shrimp.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2025/07/03/shrimp-fraud-lawsuit-south-carolina/84460716007/

Hapoens with honey a lot too from what I understand.

One trip downwind from a shrimp farm down in the valley will convince you to never knowingly choose farm raised shrimp to eat.

Deerdude said:

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One trip downwind from a shrimp farm down in the valley will convince you to never knowingly choose farm raised shrimp to eat.

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Agree, most of them are not good. The one in Rio Hondo has or had been in and outta BK dating back to shortly after it started. The shrimp outta that one tasted like nothing mush.

I got to see one in Central America that used free flowing estuary water and I guess it was alright but they had tanks where the shrimp were treated with "accepted/approved" chemicals and what I suspect was some substance to add flavor. Ironically that same estuary had the biggest and tastiest fresh water prawns I have ever eaten.

I would like to add the Chilean Sea Bass to the discussion. I shudder whenever I see it on a restaurant menu.

RGV AG said:

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txags92 said:

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I remember back in the 80s it was somewhat common for restaurants in Galveston and Kemah to sell fake scallops made from stingray meat cut with a cookie cutter type tool. The easy way to tell the difference was that the real scallops had just a bit of grittiness to them and the stingray meat didn't. No idea if that is still going on or not.

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I was just going to post about this. In the halcyon days of my youth living on SPI we would go night fishing at a spot called the shark hole between the causeways. Usually we could catch 2 to 3 large rays, some of them big motor scooters.

We would cut the flanks outta them and sell them to a couple of high end, and I won't name them, places on the Island for $3.50 a pound, we were paid in cash or in one of the cases $5.00 per pound restaurant credit.

I worked on private, charter, and several commercial boats as well. During the early fall black fin tuna will school up thick behind deep shrimpboats. It was easy to catch 40 or 50 of them, same deal we would fillet them and sell to places for $4-5 a pound, they would serve as yellowfin.

Many a beeline snapper has been sold as red snapper or grouper.

If anyone ever ate the AYCE special of "fried flounder", it was anything but. Guys on shrimpboats in the fall would keep large croaker and whiting and fillet them out and hide in the freezer and sell those to places that sold as snapper or other things.

A lot of the stuff we did in the 80's was marginally or technically illegal, but it had been going on for years and went on for years. The Magnison(sp) was in place, but nobody really enforced it, hell we didn't even know the details. Somewhere in the 90's things got a lot more formal.

We would also sell tilefish as snapper or grouper direct to restaurants, I actually like tilefish better than most grouper, but back then nobody knew what a tilefish was or where they came from. We would get the same price as grouper, which aren't as common in TX as they are in FL or the southern eastern seaboard.

On the shrimp deal, very few places in TX serve gulf shrimp anymore and the supply is way down. I can tell immediately that most places are serving imported farm raised shrimp. No taste and not very firm.

Oh, and stingrays are great eating, chargrilled with some butter and lime it is a great meat, like a firm scallop steak. We ate them frequently.

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Great post

guadalupeag said:

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Is the USDA there to make sure the chickens being processed are chickens? Or are they there to make sure proper safe food handling practices are being followed? This isn't an issue with domestic proteins because no one is trying to pass off wild hog as domestic pork. Fish on the other hand is entirely different, especially when you are talking wild caught. The USDA does inspect farm raised catfish, so this isn't an issue of lack or regulation, it's an issue of logistics. And once the fish is processed even some of the best chefs in the world can't tell the difference between expensive and cheap.

The issue with fish is more akin to the mob cutting expensive olive oils with cheap neutral oils and then reselling as the real thing. When it comes to some white fish it is really hard to tell them apart. And as any article shows this isn't one or two bad apples, it is industry wide. Greater oversite sounds great, but where? We sending inspectors out on every commercial fishing vessel? Are they staying with the catch the whole way from processing to distribution to restaurant? I'm not saying it's impossible, just a different process than domesticated proteins. I'm sure some countries do it better, but I'm guessing fish is a much bigger part of their diet than Americans.

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No, just like inspectors aren't on every farm or ranch that raises cattle.

Those boats have to, generally speaking, take their catch to a processing facility. Especially with shrimp since processing large quantities takes specialized equipment to be able to wash, head (sometimes peel and devein) and freeze quickly.

Seafood is going to be harder, no doubt, because of the nature of the beast. But it shouldn't be hard in any capacity to ensure that something like shrimp are labeled domestic or import and provide a nation of origin.

I'm always amazed at how many just "OK" restaurants around where I live have consistently full parking lots.

Also, walked into a few on a Friday, expecting a long wait, but when they say 1+hour I leave, but there are 20 people waiting more than an hour for average food.

I think most American's did not grow up with a decent cook in the house and don't know what a good meal should really taste like. Going out to eat is just easier.

I'm am spoiled however. My wife is a phenomenal cook. Sometimes she just pulls stuff out of the fridge and pantry and 30-minutes later we have a fantastic meal on the dinner table. Not many restaurants that don't cost $100+ a plate (not including drinks here) can compare to what she can do.

pinche gringo said:

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RGV AG said:

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txags92 said:

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I remember back in the 80s it was somewhat common for restaurants in Galveston and Kemah to sell fake scallops made from stingray meat cut with a cookie cutter type tool. The easy way to tell the difference was that the real scallops had just a bit of grittiness to them and the stingray meat didn't. No idea if that is still going on or not.

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I was just going to post about this. In the halcyon days of my youth living on SPI we would go night fishing at a spot called the shark hole between the causeways. Usually we could catch 2 to 3 large rays, some of them big motor scooters.

We would cut the flanks outta them and sell them to a couple of high end, and I won't name them, places on the Island for $3.50 a pound, we were paid in cash or in one of the cases $5.00 per pound restaurant credit.

I worked on private, charter, and several commercial boats as well. During the early fall black fin tuna will school up thick behind deep shrimpboats. It was easy to catch 40 or 50 of them, same deal we would fillet them and sell to places for $4-5 a pound, they would serve as yellowfin.

Many a beeline snapper has been sold as red snapper or grouper.

If anyone ever ate the AYCE special of "fried flounder", it was anything but. Guys on shrimpboats in the fall would keep large croaker and whiting and fillet them out and hide in the freezer and sell those to places that sold as snapper or other things.

A lot of the stuff we did in the 80's was marginally or technically illegal, but it had been going on for years and went on for years. The Magnison(sp) was in place, but nobody really enforced it, hell we didn't even know the details. Somewhere in the 90's things got a lot more formal.

We would also sell tilefish as snapper or grouper direct to restaurants, I actually like tilefish better than most grouper, but back then nobody knew what a tilefish was or where they came from. We would get the same price as grouper, which aren't as common in TX as they are in FL or the southern eastern seaboard.

On the shrimp deal, very few places in TX serve gulf shrimp anymore and the supply is way down. I can tell immediately that most places are serving imported farm raised shrimp. No taste and not very firm.

Oh, and stingrays are great eating, chargrilled with some butter and lime it is a great meat, like a firm scallop steak. We ate them frequently.

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Great post

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Yes, brought back a lot of memories and I know exactly the spot he's talking about. When we'd strike out on reds and trout, we always knew we could take the kids near the causeway for stingray action. It NEVER failed. We'd take some smaller ones and use them as shark bait. Never thought of eating any of the big monsters.

Been on many a blackfin tuna runs behind the shrimp boats as well. The drive out there and back sucks, but definitely worth it. Like you said though, great post.

I had a friend that was an accountant for one of the major fishmarkets in the Houston area & he told me years ago, that whitefish was often used as a filler for other fish. A lot of "crab meat" isn't crab, its flavored with Old Bay or whatever to make it taste like crab. That has been a bit of a quiet scandal in the Maryland area for a while.

The Angus thing has been laughable for years. There arent enough Angus cattle on the planet to keep up with McDonalds & every other eating establishment claiming to sell "Angus beef". They'll buy whatever meat comes in and call it Angus.

They just name all of the cows Angus. Viola! Angus beef.

51% black hide…….certified angus

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I'm in the camp that the modern grading is jacked up.

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Many years ago, when I was studying for my Masters in the Meats & Muscle Biology group, Dr. Jeff Savell said something I've never forgotten: "A sirloin can't decide if it wants to eat like a strip or a round steak."

Everyone has eaten a great sirloin steak. It's as tender as the striploin, which lies adjacent to it in the carcass.

Everyone has eaten a tough sirloin steak. It's as tough as a round steak, which lies on the opposite side of that sirloin.

Meaning? Genetics plays a big role in eating quality. Just because the Grader says it's Choice doesn't mean every steak will eat the same.

As far as the grading goes...the criteria really hasn't changed. However, over the past 30 years live cattle weights have increased, and I personally think that negatively affects eating quality. But that's just me.

I worked in restaurants of years as a young man and the seafood industry is notorious for misrepresenting fish and other products to consumers. One example are scallops, many of which are wing meat from asian stingrays. There were permissible catch-words that could be used to overcome complaints and the principal term used to describe those were "sea scallops." That is how they were sold and delivered to the restaurant. Another frequent offender is calamari, which can be sourced from a number of aquatic species (also asian stingray) and most people would never know the difference. I recently saw a news article about red snapper being misrepresented in restaurants, when most of the commercially sold fish are other snapper (just not necessarily red).

There is a great This American Life episode you can look up, btw, about ping sphincter (bung) being sold as calamari, BTW... cannot confirm or deny, but jeez.

You would never get away with any of this crap in Europe, but the FDA is seemingly more concerned about killing the American public with corn and soy byproducts to satisfy the agribusiness complex than they are making sure we are actually receiving what we think we are buying.