A couple of thoughts.

1. After going on and on and on with all the crazy names of the stuff they put on these rifles, three of them forgot or almost forgot to say what cartridge they were shooting. One remembered in the very end, one said 69gr Sierras and the host had to ask .223?, and one never did say.

2. Those are some badass guns and I think long range shooting in general is a very cool hobby but one that I will probably never get into. But if I was much younger I might.

3. 1moa is totally unreasonable at 500 yards. We(collectively) shoot deer at 100 yards and in all of the time with rifles and handguns that don't shoot that at 100 yards, especially with iron sights. Why put that kind of restrictions at 500 yards? All of those deer died except the guy that completely missed. I would put a normal kill zone target out there and if the rifle and shooter could confidently shoot three shot groups in the target I would be good with that.

4. Are those match bullets? Are they ethical? I know that Hornady and Barnes make bullets that are designed to ethically kill at those ranges, but I didn't hear those names being used. I would need some serious answers to that question before allowing that kind of shot on my land. Pretty sure the Sierra bullet that guy used out of the AR was a Match King, not a Game King.

After much practice, a one MOA 500 yard shot is not a daunting feat. The dude at 11:50 that sailed one over the back of the deer needs to get some training.

Last week I took a near complete 7mmPRC, put a scope on it and shot a 3 shot group at one hundred yards. Then, dialed up 7MOA and smacked the 500 yard plate in a stiff quartering wind at the range in Atascosa.




I've had 12 year-old young ladies do the same with 6.5 Creedmoors.

Sorry but that is a just a plain PETA set up. I guess I am lazy(didn't look him up) but is this guy some sort of anti hunting idiot?

1MOA may have proved his point but 1.25MOA would not have.

Was that a Barnes commercial?

FWIW i have killed a bull elk at 689 yards. I did not want to take that shot then and I will NOT take that shot again even know he took 5-6 steps and was dead in less than 2 minutes. I will shoot an Elk at 500 yards under the right conditions.

Interesting video. Shooting on a range is a long ways from the real world.

Would like to see it repeated with some changes. 1. A larger more realistic kill zone. 2. Dont tell the shooters the distance. 3. Give them a time limit. 4. Find a way to make the target move. 5. Do it in a field where the grass hasnt been mowed in preparation. I bet even with the larger kill zone, they would still struggle with the other real world variables.

Host of that video was odd.

This is the kind of stuff that erodes hunting rights.

Build a range if you want to shoot long distances. Respect the animal as you should.

The most critical thing at that range is to be able to successfully field judge your target animal and verify backdrop for unintended targets. The latter is more critical for safety imo, and likely will be your range limit before you're worrying about an ethical kill of an individual animal.

Deats99 said:

---

Sorry but that is a just a plain PETA set up. I guess I am lazy(didn't look him up) but is this guy some sort of anti hunting idiot?

---

You know I didn't think of that when I watched it, but that makes some sense now. It was such an odd setup using odd parameters. Why 1moa at 500 yards? Made no sense from the beginning.

No, that was 1 moa at 500 yards

Edited. Thanks Thats what I meant.

First. Furlock thanks for posting. Very interesting video for sure. I have never shot at a mule deer, whitetail or Elk at 500 yards because I don't have confidence in my shooting enough to do that…. No matter the trophy size or whatever…. And I would not just lob one out there to see if I could hit it as I hate wounded animals.
I shoot prairie dogs at that range… sometimes I hit but mostly I miss. My eyes are too old.
I know there are folks who could make that shot. Most guys on the OB that I know and other hunters I know set their own limitations and do respect the animals.
So I really don't know what this fellow was really driving at ….. but I'll bet most guys on the OB and most good hunters are more critical of themselves than this felllow gives credit to.
But it was worth the watch…. Again thanks Mr. Bones.

Deats99 said:

---

Sorry but that is a just a plain PETA set up. I guess I am lazy(didn't look him up) but is this guy some sort of anti hunting idiot?

---

what a weird response. Cortina is a championship long range shooter. His point in making the video was to open some eyes. People have been glorifying long range shots on social media Which in turn is enticing more people to take shots they probably should not.

Here is a situation with no moving target and As much time as needed to make the shot from a nice prone position using precision rifles.

Not shooting after a long hike. From an awkward position. Nothing.

Very few could do it.

That's the point. It's not anti-hunting. It's a thought exercise for people to be honest with themselves regarding ethical shooting ranges.

Good post.
I am friends with some outfitters and landowners out west. They have shared that the new trend is guys who want to try long range shots. They say lots of hunters show up with fancy new long range guns and get upset if they don't let them take the long shots. As one tactically said. …. " a long range rifle and cartridge does not a sniper make."

To add, 1 MOA at 500 yards is 5.23 inches. So again, these are perfect shot setups using long range rifles which few people are actually going to carry into the mountains. Take a regular hunting rifle and that shot precision lessens a bit. Then add elevation, add variable winds, heavy breathing, etc. That's where the shot really opens up.

Were a number of those shots "dead deer"? Yep. He even said so. But how many are you tracking and potentially not finding.

So again the video is not to stop people from shooting and killing animals. It's to add some levity to the current environment of kill at as long of distance as possible.


1 more thing. I'm amazed at some of those dudes that can drop an elk at 1000 yards like the G.A. Precision guys. But they have thousands of hours shooting. All of the equipment and knowledge to make those shots.

Fair enough, These guys are out of my league.

I would never shoot at a deer from 500 yards. If they can than great




How many of those bullets kill ethically at 500 yards?

Pardon, but is a 69 gr 223 going to have enough energy left at 500 yds to do in a large muley, much less an elk?

I know shot placement is key, but you still have to have enough oomph to do its job.

Furlock Bones said:

---

Deats99 said:

---

Sorry but that is a just a plain PETA set up. I guess I am lazy(didn't look him up) but is this guy some sort of anti hunting idiot?

---

what a weird response. Cortina is a championship long range shooter. His point in making the video was to open some eyes. People have been glorifying long range shots on social media Which in turn is enticing more people to take shots they probably should not.

Here is a situation with no moving target and As much time as needed to make the shot from a nice prone position using precision rifles.

Not shooting after a long hike. From an awkward position. Nothing.

Very few could do it.

That's the point. It's not anti-hunting. It's a thought exercise for people to be honest with themselves regarding ethical shooting ranges.

---

Like I said, did not look him up, but 90% if not all of those hits were meat shots. Seems like this is fodder for some kind of holier than thou test in order to hunt.

Gunny456 said:

---

Good post.
I am friends with some outfitters and landowners out west. They have shared that the new trend is guys who want to try long range shots. They say lots of hunters show up with fancy new long range guns and get upset if they don't let them take the long shots. As one tactically said. …. " a long range rifle and cartridge does not a sniper make."

---

Yup, I know a guy who had a $10k 28 nosler built, then watched him miss a mule deer at < 100 yards (inexcusable). You can't buy success out west. Have to be in shape and able to shoot. I shot one at 424 yds with my basic tikka on the same trip. Difference is I did a lot of practicing pre trip.

Deats99 said:

---

holier than thou

---

Yeah that's kind of cortina's schtick. Have you ever watched his reloading/load development vids?

No, if it doesn't show up here l probably don't see it. At the end of the day I am probably a bad person. Animals were probably harmed in the collection of meat for my family's consumption.
I don't take 500 yd shots either, there are days when the off hand 100 yard shot is challenging enough. I know my limits, but I don't hunt Mules, or Elk.
Now give me a 50 yard shot on a Dove and I am slinging lead

jagsdad said:

---

Pardon, but is a 69 gr 223 going to have enough energy left at 500 yds to do in a large muley, much less an elk?

---

Energy doesn't kill animals.

That said, a 69gr SMK would probably be getting near the point where it didn't have enough velocity to reliably upset, and a matchking is a poor choice due to unreliable fragmentation even above 2k fps. A tipped matchking, eldm, Berger with an open tip, or something similar would be a better choice.

What metric do you prefer to use?

A mediocre single lung hit from a 270win is absolutely more likely to be recovered than the same hit from a 556, shooting similar bullets. On a perfect shot, it might not matter. But the fact is, many shots are not perfect and more energy can make the difference.

Same thing the manufacturers use, velocity needed for expansion, upset, or fragmentation.

Same diameter and weight, same impact velocity, are you taking an accubond or an fmj?

Edit to be more clear: if I'm shooting Hornady eldx out if a .308 win and a 6mm Creedmoor, there will be a point where the bullet from the .308 has more energy than the bullet from the 6mm, but the 6mm is still moving fast enough to upset and the .308 isn't. In that case, the bullet with less energy will do more damage and be more effective.

If you look across different types of bullets, there are plenty of times a bullet with less energy will cause more damage, even if both are within their velocity thresholds.

I don't expect this to resonate well with the crowd here. OB tends to have its mind made up. But here's 400+ pages of 22 cal kills on game: https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/223-for-bear-mountain-goat-deer-elk-and-moose.130488/

The Rokslide cult takes it a bit to far for me, but hard time saying they're wrong.

CS78 said:

---

What metric do you prefer to use?

A mediocre single lung hit from a 270win is absolutely more likely to be recovered than the same hit from a 556, shooting similar bullets. On a perfect shot, it might not matter. But the fact is, many shots are not perfect and more energy can make the difference.

---

It's probably been near a decade since anyone who's in the "industry" or pays attention has used energy as a metric for killing.

Furlock Bones said:

---

1 more thing. I'm amazed at some of those dudes that can drop an elk at 1000 yards like the G.A. Precision guys. But they have thousands of hours shooting. All of the equipment and knowledge to make those shots.

---

I have two rifles built by GA Precision. They make great stuff, but no way I'd try to shoot a deer at 500-yards with my 6GT. Yeah, I can hit it for sure, but probably not as accurately as I'd like too.

These types of threads always crack me up.

meggy09 said:

---

CS78 said:

---

What metric do you prefer to use?

A mediocre single lung hit from a 270win is absolutely more likely to be recovered than the same hit from a 556, shooting similar bullets. On a perfect shot, it might not matter. But the fact is, many shots are not perfect and more energy can make the difference.

---

It's probably been near a decade since anyone who's in the "industry" or pays attention has used energy as a metric for killing.

---

What exactly is the argument?

That any bullet that expands is just as likely to result in a recovery as any other bullet that expands, regardless of weight and speed?

Or just dont use the simplistic word energy?

CS78 said:

---

meggy09 said:

---

CS78 said:

---

What metric do you prefer to use?

A mediocre single lung hit from a 270win is absolutely more likely to be recovered than the same hit from a 556, shooting similar bullets. On a perfect shot, it might not matter. But the fact is, many shots are not perfect and more energy can make the difference.

---

It's probably been near a decade since anyone who's in the "industry" or pays attention has used energy as a metric for killing.

---

What exactly is the argument?

That any bullet that expands is just as likely to result in a recovery as any other bullet that expands, regardless of weight and speed?

Or just dont use the simplistic word energy?

---

I have no idea what they are yacking about. Nothing that was said in the video. I'm also a little lost.

If you want an animal to be "dead right there" you need to hit it with hydrostatic shock. Have you ever seen a deer shot with an arrow drop like zeus himself hit it with a lightning bolt, like they do when shot with a 30-06? Sure a ttsx going 800fps will open a crazy wound channel and the animal will bleed out and die, just like it was hit with an arrow, but like in archery, that wound channel better center punch a couple vitals, whereas if that wound channel is accompanied by an appropriate amount of energy you have a little more room for error... which is important at distances where the difference between 1 and 2moa is 8 inches

Hydrostatic shock is also an overrated metric.

I've seen deer get knocked on their ass at 115 yards with a .30-06 that got up and ran off to not be recovered. Because even though that projo had a crap ton of energy and hit the buck with a lot of hydostatic shock, the round unfortunately didn't hit vitals. The shock wore off pretty quick and boom - running deer.

Bottom line, no matter what you are shooting - bow, atlatl, .223, .416 Rigby - doesn't matter if you don't hit vitals. Lungs, heart ,brachial nerve, brain - those put deer down. All of the other stuff is pomp and fluff and things that everybody wants to talk about to sound knowledgeable and technical.

Every round has limitations, and usually those limitations far exceed the shooter. And because you have certain limitations doesn't mean that everybody has the same ones. There are a few posters here that I am quite certain could probably drop a white tail with a friggin .22 LR at some obscene range because they have the capabilities.

CS78 said:

---

meggy09 said:

---

CS78 said:

---

What metric do you prefer to use?

A mediocre single lung hit from a 270win is absolutely more likely to be recovered than the same hit from a 556, shooting similar bullets. On a perfect shot, it might not matter. But the fact is, many shots are not perfect and more energy can make the difference.

---

It's probably been near a decade since anyone who's in the "industry" or pays attention has used energy as a metric for killing.

---

What exactly is the argument?

That any bullet that expands is just as likely to result in a recovery as any other bullet that expands, regardless of weight and speed?

Or just dont use the simplistic word energy?

---

Regardless of weight and speed…. To a point. The speed has to be above the minimum required for expansion. And the weight has to be something reasonable, but I'd say down to .224 caliber for sure.


I think any intelligent person who's being honest can agree that a 90 grain ELDX (.243) is a better hunting bullet than a 220 grain FMJ (.308) right? At 2200 FPS the 220 has 2365 ft/lb of energy!!!!!! Ommmmggg!! While the eldx only has 967ft/lb. One is going to pencil through, it may knock the animal down for 1-5 seconds from the CNS shock, but if no bones are hit, it's running off some distance before potentially dying. The other is going to create a WOUND CHANNEL (the words you're looking for in place of energy) that will be immediately or quickly lethal, **so long as the bullet performs as intended (don't want this to turn into an anecdotal argument about certain bullets).

I would 100% never thing about taking the cartridge with 1.5x the energy in the above scenario.

So we're on the same page now right? Because you're a smart guy? Bullet construction and impact velocity are the only things that really matter when looking at lethality of bullets.