Hey folks,
I thought I would ask here since this place knows all. I have some land near Woodville, Tx and have a relatively deep valley with a spring fed creek on the back of my property. The creek has very low flow of maybe 1 GPM, but it dumps into the Neches river eventually. I wasn't sure if this qualified as a 'natural watercourse' and require a permit. If I build a damn across the gorge, it will create about a 10 acre lake that would back up on to my neighbors land. I have already spoken to him about it, and he is cool with it although we didn't go into much detail.

Few questions:

• Since the creek eventually dumps into a river, do I need any agency approval to build the damn if I have an overflow that continues the flow of the creek into the river when the pond fills?
• What is some good advice on creating a general use agreement between my neighbor and me about the pond? What should I make sure is in it?
• Any recommendations on companies that would build the damn?
• Any additional engineering requirements I should make sure happen for the damn. The pond would be 30-40ft deep at the damn area depending on where I place the damn.

My email address is my username at hotmail.com

Thanks and Gig'em,
Mark

Talk to your county NRCS. I am working with them in Limestone County to build a pond. The EQUIP program will reimburse you about 80% of your expenses if you do all of the paperwork.

Aggie Infantry said:

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Talk to your county NRCS. I am working with them in Limestone County to build a pond. The EQUIP program will reimburse you about 80% of your expenses if you do all of the paperwork.

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This!

I honestly think getting a government agency might not be a bad thing in this case since it is affecting your neighboring property.

1 gal/min into a ten acre lake is going to take a long time to fill up!

Milwaukees Best Light said:

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1 gal/min into a ten acre lake is going to take a long time to fill up!

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It would need a good watershed to fill a 10 acre lake. 1 gallon per minute will not even keep up with evaporation in the heat of summer.

Tank - you're thinking about building a tank.

Backing water on a neighbor, you'll need a lot more than a handshake - you'll need a lawyer. The next person who buys his place may not be hospitable. A 10 acre pond may require a bit more expertise depending on the total storage ("invemtory size" is what you want to avoid). Absolutely talk to the NRCS folks.

Make sure you meet the requirements to avoid regular safety inspections:

https://www.tceq.texas.gov/compliance/investigation/damsafetyprog.html

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Effective September 1, 2013, dams that are located on private property, have a maximum impoundment capacity of less than 500 ac-ft, classified as low or significant hazard, located in a county with a population of less than 350,000 (as per 2020 census), and not located within the corporate limits of a municipality are exempt from safety requirements. Dam owners will still have to comply with maintenance and operation requirements. There is no exemption expiration date.

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Milwaukees Best Light said:

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1 gal/min into a ten acre lake is going to take a long time to fill up!

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It has a huge watershed area but the point about mentioning the flow was that it was not a huge creek but more of a trickle.

B-1 83 said:

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Backing water on a neighbor, you'll need a lot more than a handshake - you'll need a lawyer. The next person who buys his place may not be hospitable. A 10 acre pond may require a bit more expertise depending on the total storage ("invemtory size" is what you want to avoid). Absolutely talk to the NRCS folks.

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Yeah, I knew we needed a legal agreement so I was looking for advice on what to make sure is included in that agreement.

thesassman said:

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B-1 83 said:

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Backing water on a neighbor, you'll need a lot more than a handshake - you'll need a lawyer. The next person who buys his place may not be hospitable. A 10 acre pond may require a bit more expertise depending on the total storage ("invemtory size" is what you want to avoid). Absolutely talk to the NRCS folks.

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Yeah, I knew we needed a legal agreement so I was looking for advice on what to make sure is included in that agreement.

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Likely something on the deed like an easement. Someone with more expertise feel free to chime in on specifics.

How big a watershed is "huge""? You don't want to get into large pipes in that dam if you can avoid it. You can spend 6 figures in a heartbeat.

B-1 83 said:

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thesassman said:

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B-1 83 said:

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Backing water on a neighbor, you'll need a lot more than a handshake - you'll need a lawyer. The next person who buys his place may not be hospitable. A 10 acre pond may require a bit more expertise depending on the total storage ("invemtory size" is what you want to avoid). Absolutely talk to the NRCS folks.

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Yeah, I knew we needed a legal agreement so I was looking for advice on what to make sure is included in that agreement.

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Likely something on the deed like an easement. Someone with more expertise feel free to chime in on specifics.

How big a watershed is "huge""? You don't want to get into large pipes in that dam if you can avoid it. You can spend 6 figures in a heartbeat.

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Here is the Topo map for the land. I own tract T-5. The valley is on the south side of my property where I can dam the valley. Depending on how high I make the dam, it could technically back up on to T-3 too, but the road run off channels from the north plus the run off from the west section. T-4 is the neighbor who I spoke about previously. The yellow lines are not exactly where the property lines are, but the dam would run from the close to the southwest corner of my land to the northeast side of the valley.

Thanks.

I can't get the topo to come up, but I remember my wise old technician in Brenham telling me that at about 100 acres of drainage, a natural spillway may get iffy and need help.

You can leave the "n" off dam when building a pond…I mean, tank.

NCRS has nothing to do with State of Texas water rights. Damming a waterway is very different from building a "pond." The EPA feels different about that, but that's another discussion.

The major players are TPWD and TCEQ. And those two are not in agreement on what is legal and what is not. You need a waters rights attorney and not a local. TPWD has shown in Mason and Edwards Counties they will be quick to act on illegal dams. That includes tear down and removal. At owner cost.

Your big problem is not your upstream neighbor, it's your downstream neighbors. All the way to the Gulf. Austin is involved with the permitting of a dam on the Llano River in Edwards County.

A dam on Leon Creek in Mason County is being investigated by TPWD. It's very similar to your situation.The downstream neighbors are up in arms on what is nothing more than a wet weather creek.

Best of luck.

mwlkr said:

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NCRS has nothing to do with State of Texas water rights. Damming a waterway is very different from building a "pond." The EPA feels different about that, but that's another discussion.

The major players are TPWD and TCEQ. And those two are not in agreement on what is legal and what is not. You need a waters rights attorney and not a local. TPWD has shown in Mason and Edwards Counties they will be quick to act on illegal dams. That includes tear down and removal. At owner cost.

Your big problem is not your upstream neighbor, it's your downstream neighbors. All the way to the Gulf. Austin is involved with the permitting of a dam on the Llano River in Edwards County.

A dam on Leon Creek in Mason County is being investigated by TPWD. It's very similar to your situation.The downstream neighbors are up in arms on what is nothing more than a wet weather creek.

Best of luck.

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Thanks. I assumed probably incorrectly that if the water continues downstream after the dam is filled, it would not be a big deal. I will look into a water rights attorney.

Thanks,
Mark

Quote:

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Since the creek eventually dumps into a river....

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When you think about it, every drainage eventually dumps into a river...

also be aware that anyone accessing the water from your neighbor's property can legally float/fish the entire lake from a boat.

I had a nice 80 acre lake leased in east Texas that had been managed as a trophy bass fishery for at least 40 years. The lake had one cove that crossed the property line onto neighboring small tract of land. That house and land sold and the new owner and everyone he knew started fishing it and keeping everything they caught. The landowner I was leasing from was from a wealthy oil family and spent a lot of money on attorneys fees to find out there was nothing he could do about it.

mwlkr said:

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NCRS has nothing to do with State of Texas water rights. Damming a waterway is very different from building a "pond." The EPA feels different about that, but that's another discussion.

The major players are TPWD and TCEQ. And those two are not in agreement on what is legal and what is not. You need a waters rights attorney and not a local. TPWD has shown in Mason and Edwards Counties they will be quick to act on illegal dams. That includes tear down and removal. At owner cost.

Your big problem is not your upstream neighbor, it's your downstream neighbors. All the way to the Gulf. Austin is involved with the permitting of a dam on the Llano River in Edwards County.

A dam on Leon Creek in Mason County is being investigated by TPWD. It's very similar to your situation.The downstream neighbors are up in arms on what is nothing more than a wet weather creek.

Best of luck.

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Interesting…my in laws have a ranch in Blanco Co that has a creek that has never run dry…not even in the 50's. 5.5 feet deep and 20+ ft wide in one spot.

Huge Cypress trees…one used be (still is?) 2nd biggest in the state.

Few years ago, a guy upstream put a dam in and the creek stopped running. Fills up some with heavy rains, but water line dropped by probably 50%.

Worried about the cypress trees dying and economic damage to property value.

TCEQ hasn't been much help…wonder if TPWD would be?

From what has taken place in Edwards and Mason Counties, the best bet would seem to be TPWD. Their response has been quick and efficient. TCEQ is a bureaucratic nightmare. Completely handcuffed by ambiguous, out of date laws and rules.