Outdoors
Sponsored by

Question for Engineers About Helical Pier Costs.

9,466 Views | 24 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by One-Eyed Fat Man
One-Eyed Fat Man
How long do you want to ignore this user?
My wife and I are having a covered deck build on the back our our house in Atlanta.When they were digging the footings we were told they would need helical piers due to the soil condition. I asked the cost and was given a vague answer, " On average they cost about $1,000 each. I was never given any information regarding cost per foot, subsequent engineer reports or any other information. The work was done without a signed change order
I watch the installation of the helical piers and each hole needed 2 7' joints per hole x 6 holes for a total depth of 84'. It took the guys about 1.5 hours.

After about 10 days the contractor told me the cost for the piers and the engineering report was $5,100.00. My neighbor is a builder and he told me he was having a number of them installed at a house he's building at at cost of $21.00 per foot. Based on that, it seems I'm about to get the big chorizo.

Am I missing something here as I'm trying to reconcile the cost difference? Am I in a strong position to argue this since the work has been done without a signed change order?. By the way, no engineer ever came to the site before, during or after the pier installation.

Thanks amigos
EllisCoAg
How long do you want to ignore this user?
well in my world, if work is done without authorization, i just say "thank you very much".
I wanna see our defense pissed off, not confused, maybe a little murder in their hearts Reload12, 11/4/11
oldag941
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Lots of variables, but I'll take a first stab. I'm a civil PE that works in the municipal utility construction business. Without the change order, there isn't much contractual leverage to argue. Should have gotten a price quote with a not-to-exceed amount. And perhaps broken down by unit cost (foot-depth). It's been a few years, but pedestals for roadway lighting were around $1500 per. That's close to same structure you are installing. I'm sure their cost is now about double that. A lot depends on the diameter of the pier. Wider the more cost. Sounds like you had total of 6 done = 84 vertical feet. Again, a lot depends on the diameter, also variables like access, etc. You should have seen the engineers report. They can have a soil sample taken to a lab and then report done off of that, so not unreasonable to not see the engineer on site. Report may run $1000 or more. Lab tests and write-up. For 6 piers, you are probably not getting "drilled" too bad. But you definitely have more leverage since the work is done. They should have agreed to the cost ahead of doing the work. Good business practice. Otherwise you can claim, rightfully so, that it's too expensive and there is no paperwork / contract to refute it.

At this point, it's probably an arguable couple of thousand dollars. How much is it worth to you? It'll be a fight that may cost you more than that in the end (in dollars and heartache and relationships with contractor). I'd argue some and see if you get anywhere. Put a little pressure on them and see if they come down some. Then move on.
oldag941
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I should add that the soil will drive the cost a lot. It drives the depth, width, which drives volume of concrete and amount of rebar needed.
EMY92
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Unless there is something in the contract for what the builder can charge for change orders, like cost + 10%, then many use change orders as the profit center for the job. In days past when I dealt with this stuff, I knew one contractor when bidding commercial work would do 2 take offs, one for their original bid, then a second take off where they saw potential for change orders. They'd bid low on the initial bid, win the job, then make money on changes.
Aggietaco
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Don't use helical piers much in the commercial world, but a quick search says they run from $15-$30/ft likely depending on quantity as there will be mobilization costs involved. Even on the high end of that cost, you're builder is passing off a pretty substantial bill. I'd ask your builder for a copy of the invoice and then call a local pier installer yourself for an estimate. Contractually it sounds like you probably owe nothing for the change, but if you don't pay it your project will likely suffer.
poolct00
How long do you want to ignore this user?
We use helical piers often....
Our last project had (80) of them and my cost was $900 each for 21' piers....we obviously marked it up from there
As to paying for it.... up to you, but as a contractor I'd never add something like that in without engineer and client approval, and wouldn't expect a large change order to be paid without a conversation about it beforehand, at the very least
One-Eyed Fat Man
How long do you want to ignore this user?
The profit center point in change orders is what I've been thinking. An engineering report was never mentioned and since I'm retired I've been home watching things. No engineer ever visited the site.

The ball's in their court right now. They know I'm pissed about the bill. We'll see how it goes and report back.
SWCBonfire
How long do you want to ignore this user?
If you're being asked to foot the bill for the "engineer's" report, ask for a signed and sealed report as received from a Professional Engineer licenced to practice in the state of Georgia.

Depending on the laws in the state of GA, someone might be getting themselves in some hot water passing off something as an engineered foundation.
tamc93
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I would ask for the engineer's report and their certification.

I agree that they should have asked for a formal change order and are probably on the short end.

At the same time, it sounds like their was a verbal discussion of around $1,000 each. 6x$1,000 is less than $5,100.

It also sounds like their was a known anticipated need. I would probably offer to split it and move on.
AgLA06
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I guess I'm confused or missing something.
They verbally told you approximately 6 at $1k a piece ($6,000) and you agreed.

The bill came in less than that at $5,100 and you're mad?

One-Eyed Fat Man
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AgLA06 said:

I guess I'm confused or missing something.
They verbally told you approximately 6 at $1k a piece ($6,000) and you agreed.

The bill came in less than that at $5,100 and you're mad?




Yes because my neighbor who is a builder was building a house that needed them and the cost was $21/foot. I am happy to pay the market price. I want to see a price breakdown of the charges and discuss the fact that an engineering report was required was never mentioned. And no engineer ever came to take soil samples, etc. If they justify the cost, I'll pay it but to be clear, they didn't say the cost would be $1,000 per hole. They said that's the average in their experience. My neighbor's were placed at a depth of 42'. Mine were 14'.

I also failed to mention I was a commercial construction lender for 15 years and saw contractors trying to slip bullshirt through on a regular basis.
AgLA06
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Well, if you know the average per foot cost and you realize a stamped drawing (that has nothing to do with an engineer doing a site visit) is somewhere between $1,500 -$2,500. Add 10%-20% profit and that should be your conversation with the contractor.

One-Eyed Fat Man
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AgLA06 said:

Well, if you know the average per foot cost and you realize a stamped drawing (that has nothing to do with an engineer doing a site visit) is somewhere between $1,500 -$2,500. Add 10%-20% profit and that should be your conversation with the contractor.




That comes out to about $3900. That's better than $5,100.
tamc93
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Again not advocating for the contractor, but are you comparing apples to apples?

  • Neighbor being a builder - did he get a better price?
  • Neighbor having more - did he get a better cost per foot due to the quantity and mobilization costs being spread across the quantity (assume $500-1k)?

I have no idea what the costs would be for the engineering report in that area, but I do not step foot on anyone's residential property for less then $5k (basically I do not like doing work for homeowner's since they are PITA).
S.A. Aggie
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Lawyer
One-Eyed Fat Man
How long do you want to ignore this user?
tamc93 said:

Again not advocating for the contractor, but are you comparing apples to apples?

  • Neighbor being a builder - did he get a better price?
  • Neighbor having more - did he get a better cost per foot due to the quantity and mobilization costs being spread across the quantity (assume $500-1k)?

I have no idea what the costs would be for the engineering report in that area, but I do not step foot on anyone's residential property for less then $5k (basically I do not like doing work for homeowner's since they are PITA).


I get what you're saying. But despite our request they are unwilling to provide the engineering report or any other cost information to us other than saying what the cost was and expecting us to accept it without question. I think it's fair to request invoices and certainly the engineering report before paying. If they're being honest I'll pay the bill.
TuitionPayingParent
How long do you want to ignore this user?
A colleague of mine sent this to me and thought my input might be helpful.

I am going to disregard specific manufacturers, as with like any other industry, some make good products and others make bad products, so in this instance, I will only relay information regarding installation and costs.

Most installation contractors are going to have a minimum cost just to go out to the site. It depends on their overhead (wages, insurance, machine, truck/trailer, etc.) and travel distance. This minimum charge can vary from around $3,000 - $5,000. Since there were only six piers installed, this would fall under a minimum charge. If the general contractor marked up the bill, it was not much. The general contractor would generally be responsible for marking pier locations, oversee installation, and do their job as a general contractor, so I do not believe you were taken advantage of. The cost I see mentioned in the dialogue is $21 a foot. It does not specify if this material only or material and labor. A quick calculation shows $21 * 14' = $294 a pier. Being in the industry for over 20 years, that number is way, way too cheap. I understand it is for a deck so it is probably round shaft, 2-7/8", which would require two bolts for connections. Also, if the material is hot dipped galvanized, that adds roughly 7% to the material cost. Like someone mentioned before, the number of piers installed at the site is going to have an effect on the "per pier price". You can take it upon yourself to price pipe, hardware, steel plate (for helix) and estimate cutting and welding costs. You will find that a piecing out the steel and estimating transportation and manufacturing costs, it will probably come out to around $250-$300. This number does not include labor. I know the work does not look like much but there is significant investment in the equipment. You did not mention the number of helices so I will assume one helical plate.

This is how the bid will work on lets say 10 or more piles - $500 per pier. After 12'-15', depending on lengths of material, it will $20-$25 per foot after the initial depth. These are prices for typical residential projects requiring ultimate loads of 40 Kips or less. If there are no soil borings or a trial probe was not installed, no one is going to know how deep they are going to go until it gets in the ground. Installation torque will be monitored, or should be, through the entire installation process. The other item not accounted for in the cost, is the termination cap. It will require one of these and it can cost anywhere from $35 to $100 depending on the requirements. Those are also not typically galvanized unless it is terminated above grade and exposed to the elements.

As far as getting an engineer stamp on documents or plans, it is going to vary by municipalities in regards to their requirements. Some require it, some do not. You would be surprised at the number of cities who require nothing, and I'm talking large cities. Residential construction is not the same animal as commercial.

In a nutshell, I do not think you were taken advantage of. I do not know the character of the contractor and was not there to hear the discussions, however, on the surface and the content displayed on this message board, it does look like you were given a fair price.

My advice would be this:

1 - Ask for a pier log stating manufacturer of helical material, size of shaft, helical configuration and termination depth.
2- Ask for installation torque. Most contractors will just right down the last reading on their gauge. There is a direct relationship between torque and capacity of the piles.

If you are asked why you want this information, tell them that you may decide to do some additional work on the deck at a later date (add fireplace or whatever) and you want to know what the upper limit of the piers are to ensure they are not overloaded. Of course, you can tell them you want the information because you paid for it but my suggestion lets them know you have some foresight and not overtly stating that you distrust them.
One-Eyed Fat Man
How long do you want to ignore this user?
TuitionPayingParent said:

A colleague of mine sent this to me and thought my input might be helpful.

I am going to disregard specific manufacturers, as with like any other industry, some make good products and others make bad products, so in this instance, I will only relay information regarding installation and costs.

Most installation contractors are going to have a minimum cost just to go out to the site. It depends on their overhead (wages, insurance, machine, truck/trailer, etc.) and travel distance. This minimum charge can vary from around $3,000 - $5,000. Since there were only six piers installed, this would fall under a minimum charge. If the general contractor marked up the bill, it was not much. The general contractor would generally be responsible for marking pier locations, oversee installation, and do their job as a general contractor, so I do not believe you were taken advantage of. The cost I see mentioned in the dialogue is $21 a foot. It does not specify if this material only or material and labor. A quick calculation shows $21 * 14' = $294 a pier. Being in the industry for over 20 years, that number is way, way too cheap. I understand it is for a deck so it is probably round shaft, 2-7/8", which would require two bolts for connections. Also, if the material is hot dipped galvanized, that adds roughly 7% to the material cost. Like someone mentioned before, the number of piers installed at the site is going to have an effect on the "per pier price". You can take it upon yourself to price pipe, hardware, steel plate (for helix) and estimate cutting and welding costs. You will find that a piecing out the steel and estimating transportation and manufacturing costs, it will probably come out to around $250-$300. This number does not include labor. I know the work does not look like much but there is significant investment in the equipment. You did not mention the number of helices so I will assume one helical plate.

This is how the bid will work on lets say 10 or more piles - $500 per pier. After 12'-15', depending on lengths of material, it will $20-$25 per foot after the initial depth. These are prices for typical residential projects requiring ultimate loads of 40 Kips or less. If there are no soil borings or a trial probe was not installed, no one is going to know how deep they are going to go until it gets in the ground. Installation torque will be monitored, or should be, through the entire installation process. The other item not accounted for in the cost, is the termination cap. It will require one of these and it can cost anywhere from $35 to $100 depending on the requirements. Those are also not typically galvanized unless it is terminated above grade and exposed to the elements.

As far as getting an engineer stamp on documents or plans, it is going to vary by municipalities in regards to their requirements. Some require it, some do not. You would be surprised at the number of cities who require nothing, and I'm talking large cities. Residential construction is not the same animal as commercial.

In a nutshell, I do not think you were taken advantage of. I do not know the character of the contractor and was not there to hear the discussions, however, on the surface and the content displayed on this message board, it does look like you were given a fair price.

My advice would be this:

1 - Ask for a pier log stating manufacturer of helical material, size of shaft, helical configuration and termination depth.
2- Ask for installation torque. Most contractors will just right down the last reading on their gauge. There is a direct relationship between torque and capacity of the piles.

If you are asked why you want this information, tell them that you may decide to do some additional work on the deck at a later date (add fireplace or whatever) and you want to know what the upper limit of the piers are to ensure they are not overloaded. Of course, you can tell them you want the information because you paid for it but my suggestion lets them know you have some foresight and not overtly stating that you distrust them.


This is good information and I appreciate it. As I said before, we have no problem paying this charge order if we can get information regarding the specific costs which to this point they are unwilling to provide. There has been some loss of trust issues with them prior to this, particularly making some changes to the plan and the appearance of the structure without any discussion or approval.

Once they can satisfy us that their charges are legit we'll get out the check book. Thanks again.
webgem08
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Helical piers don't necessarily require an engineer to show up, sample, test, etc. to recommend a design. They are designed to be installed to a certain torque, and then when that torque is reached, sufficient resistance is achieved. If the required loading is known, then the helical can be sized for structural capacity, and the contractor keeps spinning it into the ground until the design torque is met. Could be 5', could be 30'.

If they are charging you for a report, then I would ask to see that report. It should have a licensed PE's name and stamp on it.
One-Eyed Fat Man
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I really appreciate all of the advice and information. Thanks.
MonkeyKnifeFighter
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Ayto Siks
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Edit: not saying this is what happened. Just the first thing that popped into my mind.

One-Eyed Fat Man
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Ayto Siks said:

Edit: not saying this is what happened. Just the first thing that popped into my mind.




Mine too.
One-Eyed Fat Man
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I got things worked out with the contractor. They'll provide the information y'all advised and a cost breakdown. There was some bullshirt nickle and dime stuff in the total he gave me and they're going to waive that. In the end I guess they only put the tip in. Thanks again for the help.
Refresh
Page 1 of 1
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.