I used to get upset at the allotments in NM for guided/unguided. Then I just decided to start playing the game and apply guided with an outfitter. The guided pool gets 10% of the tags and has a smaller pool of applicants most of the time. I was able to draw an archery elk tag in Unit 34 non-guided a few years back which was pretty lucky.DG96 said:
The landowner tags are the biggest issue for NM. That is a large portion of the tag allotment. Very few residents will pay $4000 for below average tag. The better tags are $8000 and up.
The guided pool getting 10% sucks. Of course that is mostly nonresidents in that pool so residents are pissed at that too.
2024 Western Hunting Thread
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Last: 3 days ago by AgLawman
AgDad121619 said:
I have been working in GoHunt tonight looking for a spot to apply in Co. I have two points and debating whether to just get points for future muzzleloader hunt since I can't go during that time this year. The more I look at both muzzleloader and 1st rifle I am convinced I just need to quit accumulating points. Most of the units that I can get a 100% draw odds I don't need 2 points for. And if I look out for future hints to upgrade unit , my opportunities don't change until I get 10+ points. 61 so I won't be able to hunt high elevation by the time I can accumulate enough points to make a difference. I might as well just apply 1st rifle and burn points
Take a chance at 2nd draw and keep accumulating points. That's my plan for 4-5 years before I finally put in for a 1st draw "decent" unit. 2nd draw doesn't burn any points. Then there's leftover sale in August and you may get lucky. If all else fails, go OTC before they get rid of it.
Rolling the dice in NM again this year. We will see.
Here's my Montana resident entries:
(1st choice/2nd/3rd)
Antelope: 480-20/420-20/481-20
Deer B: 121-00/104-00
Elk: 410-20/621-20/622-20
Moose: 334-50
Bighorn Sheep: 123-20
Mountain Goat: 100-20
Bison: 395-20
Elk B: 121-00/121-01/104-00
(1st choice/2nd/3rd)
Antelope: 480-20/420-20/481-20
Deer B: 121-00/104-00
Elk: 410-20/621-20/622-20
Moose: 334-50
Bighorn Sheep: 123-20
Mountain Goat: 100-20
Bison: 395-20
Elk B: 121-00/121-01/104-00
What are your odds as a resident? Would suck if I was resident and couldn't hunt because of no tag. Are their resident OTC tags available for most of these species?
General deer/elk license allows you to hunt in the vast majority of the state. The B tags are for antlerless tags in units that don't include antlerless under the general license. I'll get to hunt regardless. The elk units I put in for are the Upper Missouri Breaks and are consider "trophy" units. Lower odds of getting drawn, but high potential of killing something good. This is will be my 5th season as a MT resident and I have yet to get drawn for anything.
Moose, sheep, bison, goat are all just accumulating points so that one day I might get drawn.
Moose, sheep, bison, goat are all just accumulating points so that one day I might get drawn.
No draw on my Nevada deer tag. Bummer man.
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AgDad121619 said:
What are your odds as a resident? Would suck if I was resident and couldn't hunt because of no tag.
I've been in this situation as a CO resident, and yes it does suck. Living and driving amongst vast tracks of public land, seeing deer and elk daily, along with seemingly endless hoards of out-of-state hunters lining virtually every forest service road- and yet to have no tag as a local who has been there hiking with and watching those animals since snowmelt… Then to see my most enjoyable OTC option turned into a draw (even though I supported and agreed with the move). It was a frustrating.
Hunting the west isn't the dream that 95% of non-residents think it will be. But those of us who have done it consistently know that it is typically either 10x worse or 10x better than you ever imagined, and for some it's worth every maddening, frustrating, exhausting, bank account draining, gut punching, *** kicking second!
cupofjoe04 said:AgDad121619 said:
What are your odds as a resident? Would suck if I was resident and couldn't hunt because of no tag.
I've been in this situation as a CO resident, and yes it does suck. Living and driving amongst vast tracks of public land, seeing deer and elk daily, along with seemingly endless hoards of out-of-state hunters lining virtually every forest service road- and yet to have no tag as a local who has been there hiking with and watching those animals since snowmelt… Then to see my most enjoyable OTC option turned into a draw (even though I supported and agreed with the move). It was a frustrating.
I thought 77 was 100% draw odds for residents. It's almost that for NR I think.
Also if that's the area you are talking about I have hunted it once. Most of the Texans were there to camp with a license to hunt.
Lot more drinking than hunting.
DG96 said:cupofjoe04 said:AgDad121619 said:
What are your odds as a resident? Would suck if I was resident and couldn't hunt because of no tag.
I've been in this situation as a CO resident, and yes it does suck. Living and driving amongst vast tracks of public land, seeing deer and elk daily, along with seemingly endless hoards of out-of-state hunters lining virtually every forest service road- and yet to have no tag as a local who has been there hiking with and watching those animals since snowmelt… Then to see my most enjoyable OTC option turned into a draw (even though I supported and agreed with the move). It was a frustrating.
I thought 77 was 100% draw odds for residents. It's almost that for NR I think.
Also if that's the area you are talking about I have hunted it once. Most of the Texans were there to camp with a license to hunt.
Lot more drinking than hunting.
True- but when you are sitting on almost a decade's worth of earned points, it's really hard to stomach brining those to draw a tag to hunt a unit that has been OTC archery (and over-hunted) for a very long time.
Early season hunting 77/771 was worth it as an OTC option while building points for another until like 76. However, it was still very much over hunted (in my opinion) even after it became a draw. I remember seeing the draw results after year 1- and they basically issued almost the same number of tags that were sold the previous year when it was OTC archery. So- the draw didn't change much as far as pressure, in my perspective.
And you are right, there are a lot of camps of drinkers that do a little hunting along the roads in 77. They are like flies on a turd out there. But the woods are also crawling with people, more and more every year. They are everywhere. It doesn't matter how far back you go, you will find people. I had some success hunting the often ignored in between spaces- little holes and dark corners 2-3 miles in that most people walk past or never make it to.
I remember one year I drew a sheep tag (just a ewe, but it was likely to be the only sheep tag I will ever draw, so it was a BIG deal to me). I scouted HARD all summer. I put some serious miles on my boots, got in great shape, and wore out my favors with horse-owning friends. I found a fantastic valley where the ewes were lambing, and had those suckers pretty dialed in. It was 12 miles back, almost up against the divide.
The horses that I had lined up to help me… well they didn't pan out, let's just say. I ended up missing time from my season because a horse got colic snd threw me down the mountain. But, I got my knee healed up as much as I could, and stared hiking in solo.
I got up there, set up camp in the timber a long ways below the saddle, and then eased up to the rim. I wanted to just check on the ewes and see where they bedded, so I would know how to approach the following morning. To my horror, as I peaked over the rim, I saw a giant horse-camp set up right in the middle of the valley. It was an elk camp, and I could not see any evidence of a successful elk kill, but a huddle of very loud guys around a very big fire. Right in the middle of the valley where the elk moved and the sheep like to come down to. They were camped where they should have been hunting, but didn't look like they cared much about hunting. I spoke with them at a later point, and my suspicions were confirmed.
2 days later, I finally found the sheep another 5 miles away. They were JUST over the divide and in another unit, but I knew I would catch them creeping back in mine if I stayed with them. But that would have meant going back for a stag camp and following them even deeper. That was WAY too far for me to safely try and take a sheep and haul it back solo on a questionable knee (I had no more horse support). So I tipped my hat to the ewes and cursed the clueless horsemen as I hiked back down to eat some very costly tag soup.
Or- maybe I'm just making up horror stories to scare all the people away, so I can go back and hunt there in peace… ha ha!
I remember one year I drew a sheep tag (just a ewe, but it was likely to be the only sheep tag I will ever draw, so it was a BIG deal to me). I scouted HARD all summer. I put some serious miles on my boots, got in great shape, and wore out my favors with horse-owning friends. I found a fantastic valley where the ewes were lambing, and had those suckers pretty dialed in. It was 12 miles back, almost up against the divide.
The horses that I had lined up to help me… well they didn't pan out, let's just say. I ended up missing time from my season because a horse got colic snd threw me down the mountain. But, I got my knee healed up as much as I could, and stared hiking in solo.
I got up there, set up camp in the timber a long ways below the saddle, and then eased up to the rim. I wanted to just check on the ewes and see where they bedded, so I would know how to approach the following morning. To my horror, as I peaked over the rim, I saw a giant horse-camp set up right in the middle of the valley. It was an elk camp, and I could not see any evidence of a successful elk kill, but a huddle of very loud guys around a very big fire. Right in the middle of the valley where the elk moved and the sheep like to come down to. They were camped where they should have been hunting, but didn't look like they cared much about hunting. I spoke with them at a later point, and my suspicions were confirmed.
2 days later, I finally found the sheep another 5 miles away. They were JUST over the divide and in another unit, but I knew I would catch them creeping back in mine if I stayed with them. But that would have meant going back for a stag camp and following them even deeper. That was WAY too far for me to safely try and take a sheep and haul it back solo on a questionable knee (I had no more horse support). So I tipped my hat to the ewes and cursed the clueless horsemen as I hiked back down to eat some very costly tag soup.
Or- maybe I'm just making up horror stories to scare all the people away, so I can go back and hunt there in peace… ha ha!
cupofjoe04 said:
And you are right, there are a lot of camps of drinkers that do a little hunting along the roads in 77. They are like flies on a turd out there. But the woods are also crawling with people, more and more every year. They are everywhere. It doesn't matter how far back you go, you will find people. I had some success hunting the often ignored in between spaces- little holes and dark corners 2-3 miles in that most people walk past or never make it to.
I remember one year I drew a sheep tag (just a ewe, but it was likely to be the only sheep tag I will ever draw, so it was a BIG deal to me). I scouted HARD all summer. I put some serious miles on my boots, got in great shape, and wore out my favors with horse-owning friends. I found a fantastic valley where the ewes were lambing, and had those suckers pretty dialed in. It was 12 miles back, almost up against the divide.
The horses that I had lined up to help me… well they didn't pan out, let's just say. I ended up missing time from my season because a horse got colic snd threw me down the mountain. But, I got my knee healed up as much as I could, and stared hiking in solo.
I got up there, set up camp in the timber a long ways below the saddle, and then eased up to the rim. I wanted to just check on the ewes and see where they bedded, so I would know how to approach the following morning. To my horror, as I peaked over the rim, I saw a giant horse-camp set up right in the middle of the valley. It was an elk camp, and I could not see any evidence of a successful elk kill, but a huddle of very loud guys around a very big fire. Right in the middle of the valley where the elk moved and the sheep like to come down to. They were camped where they should have been hunting, but didn't look like they cared much about hunting. I spoke with them at a later point, and my suspicions were confirmed.
2 days later, I finally found the sheep another 5 miles away. They were JUST over the divide and in another unit, but I knew I would catch them creeping back in mine if I stayed with them. But that would have meant going back for a stag camp and following them even deeper. That was WAY too far for me to safely try and take a sheep and haul it back solo on a questionable knee (I had no more horse support). So I tipped my hat to the ewes and cursed the clueless horsemen as I hiked back down to eat some very costly tag soup.
Or- maybe I'm just making up horror stories to scare all the people away, so I can go back and hunt there in peace… ha ha!
I quit bow hunting in Colorado because of the crowds. I might start again if I manage to use the 20 elk points I have as a resident. Trying to use those for a rifle hunt.
Sucks to know you would have to wait probably another 15 years to early rifle hunt the top units in NW corner.
Maybe unit 1 is possible with 20 pts.
61 early would be a fun hunt but the season is short.
Also. I was looking at the archery elk success rate that just came out. Almost every unit declined in 2023 from 2022.
The unit I hunted was about half the success rate of the previous year.
I don't think it was the weather. Maybe the Moon phase with the dark moon being right during muzzleloader season??
Maybe unit 1 is possible with 20 pts.
61 early would be a fun hunt but the season is short.
Also. I was looking at the archery elk success rate that just came out. Almost every unit declined in 2023 from 2022.
The unit I hunted was about half the success rate of the previous year.
I don't think it was the weather. Maybe the Moon phase with the dark moon being right during muzzleloader season??
Yep.
I've sadly resigned myself to the idea that I've already killed the biggest, if not maybe the last, bull I'll ever kill.
I'm a non-resident now (moved back to TX), and really can't afford to play the game anymore for just myself. My oldest boy is about to turn 12, so- my hunting focus has shifted to him. If I'm able to scrap together enough money to go on a hunt someday, I'll be playing guide and pack mule for him (and be absolutely thrilled to do it).
I'm probably more sad that I never did get to chase after a big mulie. Killed one small velvet buck with muzzleloader. That was an absolute blast! I enjoyed it as much as any elk hunt I've ever been on.
It's amazing how much things changed just in the 7 years I was there. I can't imaging how some of you who have watched the decline for a few decades feel… I'm just glad I was able to spend a lot of time in the woods, help a dozen or so friends check off elk or mule deer from their bucket list, and get a couple for myself along the way.
I've sadly resigned myself to the idea that I've already killed the biggest, if not maybe the last, bull I'll ever kill.
I'm a non-resident now (moved back to TX), and really can't afford to play the game anymore for just myself. My oldest boy is about to turn 12, so- my hunting focus has shifted to him. If I'm able to scrap together enough money to go on a hunt someday, I'll be playing guide and pack mule for him (and be absolutely thrilled to do it).
I'm probably more sad that I never did get to chase after a big mulie. Killed one small velvet buck with muzzleloader. That was an absolute blast! I enjoyed it as much as any elk hunt I've ever been on.
It's amazing how much things changed just in the 7 years I was there. I can't imaging how some of you who have watched the decline for a few decades feel… I'm just glad I was able to spend a lot of time in the woods, help a dozen or so friends check off elk or mule deer from their bucket list, and get a couple for myself along the way.
I understand the frustration from both residents and non-residents with the crowding in Western states... but you also have to consider that for a lot of them (myself included) hunting elk/muleys in a crowded unit is still hunting elk and muleys. That's something that we can't do in our home states and still worth the trip.
I also consider myself above the drinking/loud hunters and hate sometimes that me and my group get lumped in with them because we have TX plates, but that's the nature of the beast.
I also consider myself above the drinking/loud hunters and hate sometimes that me and my group get lumped in with them because we have TX plates, but that's the nature of the beast.
DG96 said:
Sucks to know you would have to wait probably another 15 years to early rifle hunt the top units in NW corner.
Maybe unit 1 is possible with 20 pts.
61 early would be a fun hunt but the season is short.
Also. I was looking at the archery elk success rate that just came out. Almost every unit declined in 2023 from 2022.
The unit I hunted was about half the success rate of the previous year.
I don't think it was the weather. Maybe the Moon phase with the dark moon being right during muzzleloader season??
I gave up on 2/201 a couple of years ago. I was still putting in for the hybrid draw there, but last year's winter kill shut the door for me. Not worth the chase.
I've been involved with 3 GMU 61 hunts, 2 rifle, 1 bow. Fun hunt. Lots of elk, but not worth 20 points.
As far as last year, everything was late. Spring runoff, ice out elk rut, deer rut. Only reason I can figure the success rate was down.
AgEng06 said:
I understand the frustration from both residents and non-residents with the crowding in Western states... but you also have to consider that for a lot of them (myself included) hunting elk/muleys in a crowded unit is still hunting elk and muleys. That's something that we can't do in our home states and still worth the trip.
I also consider myself above the drinking/loud hunters and hate sometimes that me and my group get lumped in with them because we have TX plates, but that's the nature of the beast.
Sometimes out of stater's get a bad rap, but personally, I'm seeing less bad behavior out of Texas than a lot of other states. Pennsylvania is currently number one on my sh$t list.
Only good news, people that really want to hunt, that take time to learn the draw system, might have a better chance under a draw situation. Guys that just want to go drink in the woods are generally not that organized.
Not that there is anything wrong with drinking in the woods. I just don't do it with a firearm.
Reminder, tomorrow is the Colorado deadline.
thank you, Brad! I got mine in last week but a reminder is greatly appreciated!BradMtn346 said:
Reminder, tomorrow is the Colorado deadline.
I put in for archery in 12,23,24 and private landowner tag deer in 11 for 4th.
Put in for my Colorado points. No western hunting this year.
Probably just doing CO points this year, given it be the last year of otc
I applied for 2nd/3rd seasons with 2nd chance option for unit 11 so not likely I get drawn but will check with you if I do. Thanks for the application information
Grabbed my 14th elk point. Not sure what to do with those. Its no mans land for points.
Restarted my deer points after burning them in 2022.
Hunting in 49/57/58/581 with a landowner tag. Would love to see if anyone here has hunted those units for deer. I'd be happy to exchange info from other units I've been, if it would be beneficial.
Restarted my deer points after burning them in 2022.
Hunting in 49/57/58/581 with a landowner tag. Would love to see if anyone here has hunted those units for deer. I'd be happy to exchange info from other units I've been, if it would be beneficial.
How does landowner tag work? Do you line up permission / purchase tag after you draw or is it basically getting a guided hunt?
I purchased through an intermediary that represents the landowner.
It does provide private access, but the property isn't likely worth hunting. The voucher - when used to buy a carcass tag - is good for the unit/units where the property is located.
It's an in between world. Not a draw tag. Not an outfitted hunt. Buying access, and thus, a tag for that unit.
Prices vary based on the season, weapon, and unit quality. It's a nice way to hunt while waiting to draw using PPs in the future.
It does provide private access, but the property isn't likely worth hunting. The voucher - when used to buy a carcass tag - is good for the unit/units where the property is located.
It's an in between world. Not a draw tag. Not an outfitted hunt. Buying access, and thus, a tag for that unit.
Prices vary based on the season, weapon, and unit quality. It's a nice way to hunt while waiting to draw using PPs in the future.
PLOs and vouchers are totally different, are a touchy subject and a very confusing system. One allows the tag to be used unit wide and the other doesn't. Be absolutely clear on what you buy and do not solely trust a brokers word under any circumstances. Do your own homework first. Personally I would not use a broker, at least in CO, CPW is going to start coming down on these guys.
No person shall broker a voucher on behalf of any landowner or person, or use or possess any brokered voucher. A voucher that has been transferred by any person who is not the landowner or designated land manger is VOID. A hunting license obtained for use with a void voucher is also VOID. (also see Definitions section for the definition of 'Broker)
https://cpw.state.co.us/thingstodo/Pages/LandownerPreference.aspx
No person shall broker a voucher on behalf of any landowner or person, or use or possess any brokered voucher. A voucher that has been transferred by any person who is not the landowner or designated land manger is VOID. A hunting license obtained for use with a void voucher is also VOID. (also see Definitions section for the definition of 'Broker)
https://cpw.state.co.us/thingstodo/Pages/LandownerPreference.aspx
"It does provide private access, but the property isn't likely worth hunting. The voucher - when used to buy a carcass tag - is good for the unit/units where the property is located."TikkaShooter said:
I purchased through an intermediary that represents the landowner.
It does provide private access, but the property isn't likely worth hunting. The voucher - when used to buy a carcass tag - is good for the unit/units where the property is located.
It's an in between world. Not a draw tag. Not an outfitted hunt. Buying access, and thus, a tag for that unit.
Prices vary based on the season, weapon, and unit quality. It's a nice way to hunt while waiting to draw using PPs in the future.
So this allows you to hunt any public land in that unit plus the private land for the landowner tag? How do you find the intermediaries?
And there are "draws" available for landowner tags - are those only available to the landowners and then based on their draw they can turn around and sell those tags?
Hoyt Ag lays it out pretty well. He's right, its a touchy subject and there is gray area. This is how a TON of outfitters get their tags. If you are ever looking to buy an outfitted hunt and see "No Draw Required"...they are likely obtaining access (vouchers) via landowners who sell them.
I'm not sure what the solution is. The outfitting industry is very propped up by the current system of:
1) Landowner applies for X number of vouchers
2) Landowner "transfers" (sells) to outfitters for $,$$$
3) Outfitters sell hunt for more than they paid landowner
4) Hunter gets an opportunity on private and public
It's a financial win for the landowner. A business model for the outfitter. And a hunting/tourism/spending opportunity for the client.
HoytAg - can you please correct me if any of the above is incorrect? You are far more dialed in than I am.
As to why CPW wants to squash the above flow of tags from landowner to outfitter/broker...I assume bc that was never the intention of the landowner tag system. But the market did what markets do, and when there was an opportunity for money to be made - it found its way.
I'm not sure what the solution is. The outfitting industry is very propped up by the current system of:
1) Landowner applies for X number of vouchers
2) Landowner "transfers" (sells) to outfitters for $,$$$
3) Outfitters sell hunt for more than they paid landowner
4) Hunter gets an opportunity on private and public
It's a financial win for the landowner. A business model for the outfitter. And a hunting/tourism/spending opportunity for the client.
HoytAg - can you please correct me if any of the above is incorrect? You are far more dialed in than I am.
As to why CPW wants to squash the above flow of tags from landowner to outfitter/broker...I assume bc that was never the intention of the landowner tag system. But the market did what markets do, and when there was an opportunity for money to be made - it found its way.
TikkaShooter said:
Grabbed my 14th elk point. Not sure what to do with those. Its no mans land for points.
Restarted my deer points after burning them in 2022.
Hunting in 49/57/58/581 with a landowner tag. Would love to see if anyone here has hunted those units for deer. I'd be happy to exchange info from other units I've been, if it would be beneficial.
I used to hunt deer in those units when you had to hunt deer and elk in the same rifle season, so a long time ago. I was mostly looking for elk, but would look for deer if I tagged out. There are so many elk, at least in 49, I think it kind of displaces the deer. Most of the deer I saw were at timberline, or down in the PJ habitats. Lots of BLM and roads in 57 south of Trout Creek pass, not a ton of water, so concentrate your off road efforts near water. A neighbor used to swear by hunting timberline with a muzzleloader as the way to find the big ones. I never tried it.
AgDad121619 said:"It does provide private access, but the property isn't likely worth hunting. The voucher - when used to buy a carcass tag - is good for the unit/units where the property is located."TikkaShooter said:
I purchased through an intermediary that represents the landowner.
It does provide private access, but the property isn't likely worth hunting. The voucher - when used to buy a carcass tag - is good for the unit/units where the property is located.
It's an in between world. Not a draw tag. Not an outfitted hunt. Buying access, and thus, a tag for that unit.
Prices vary based on the season, weapon, and unit quality. It's a nice way to hunt while waiting to draw using PPs in the future.
So this allows you to hunt any public land in that unit plus the private land for the landowner tag? How do you find the intermediaries?
And there are "draws" available for landowner tags - are those only available to the landowners and then based on their draw they can turn around and sell those tags?
The landowner voucher program is only available in units where there are no over the counter licenses for that species. So the entire state has a deer landowner program, but much of the state does not for elk.
In units where all licenses are limited, west of I-25, 10% of the tag quota goes to landowners through the voucher program unrestricted. Another 10%, so 20% total, goes into the program, but is restricted to private land.
For lands to be eligible, you have to meet a certain acreage requirement, and the number of applications is based on total acres owned. The land must be habitat for the species, at least at some time in the year.
Applications are not a guaranteed tag. They are kind of like a person, as they each acquire and use preference points. If you are successful in the draw, you get a transferable voucher that is a guaranteed tag, but you still have to buy the tag.
In my unit, to acquire an unrestricted 3rd season deer voucher takes a preference point. So of my 4 applications, I rarely draw more than 2 vouchers.
Brokering of vouchers isn't allowed. In my opinion, the program was set up so that those providing habitat could have a better opportunity to hunt, not for the guy with the deepest pockets, and brokering tends to lean that way. The "designated manager" can sell vouchers, but that person has to be set up ahead of the draw.
And 90% are not, which is why I advise to stay away from anyone that is a broker.BradMtn346 said:
Brokering of vouchers isn't allowed. In my opinion, the program was set up so that those providing habitat could have a better opportunity to hunt, not for the guy with the deepest pockets, and brokering tends to lean that way. The "designated manager" can sell vouchers, but that person has to be set up ahead of the draw.
MT elk results should be out today or tomorrow.
rather be fishing said:
MT elk results should be out today or tomorrow.
My results say pending but it shows the combo license as an item held.
I did apply for a limited permit also but doubt I'll get lucky on that, so probably just a general combo.
The website is down right now, so hopefully we'll find out soon.
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