Exactly!

Modern Progressivism is permeated with Rosseau's idea of the "noble savage" but taken to a whole new level. Progressives deny that they believe in or are influenced by it, yet they constantly point to the so-called "sins" of civilization, particularly western civilization, but never acknowledge the same or worse "sins" on the part of the uncivilized.

Everyone hated the Comanches, even the surrounding tribes. There was not much if anything noble about the Comanches.

Interestingly, although the Comanches were defeated, they really weren't "wiped out". Most of them went to a reservation like other tribes. The reason we see so few around today is because Quanah Parker persuaded Congress to allow the tribe to allocate reservation land to individual tribe members and for those tribe members to then sell off their lands to non-Comanches. Because of that, most of the land was sold off and the Comanches integrated into white society.

Although some of their descendants bemoan the loss of their reservation, it was almost certainly good for the Comanches. In hindsight, the reservation system has been horrible for the tribes that stayed on reservations. And the sale of the reservation lands was no more a loss to the Comanches than was the sale of my great-grandfather's lands back in the 1940s was to me.

Apache said:

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Quote:

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Am i wrong in thinking this?

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Absolutely not.
There is a progressive belief that "culture" can't be bad, thus they overlook the horrific aspects of historical & modern groups of people because they are a minority or oppressed by a larger, more powerful force (generally Western European).

This progressive belief turns a blind eye to such things as:
Aztec slavery & human sacrifice
Native American constant warfare, slavery, cannibalism
Muslim oppression of women, Jews, homosexuals & their enslavement of millions of Africans
African slavery, corruption & despotism
The class system & racism in India
Etc. Etc.

Western Civ. has its problems, but its core principals of property ownership, human rights, rule of law, self determination etc. are what dragged the world out of the Middle Ages & into Modernity.

(Sorry went a little history/politics board. Back to your regularly scheduled Comanche conversation)

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I wish I could give this 10 stars.

For an absolutely brutal work of fiction, I recommend Cormac Mccarthy's Blood Meridian

The Adventures of Big-Foot Wallace is definitely worth a read.

It is by far the funniest book that I have read about the frontier, and reminds me of people that I know that used to tell stories by the campfire.

No doubt there are a few tall tales intertwined with the historical facts. Reminds me of visiting with my grandfather. You were never sure when the fiction began or ended. One that my grandfather swore by was seeing an upside down tornado.

Probably the most detailed and graphic account of the Mier Expedition that I have read.

I will give that one a try. I know a descendant of Big Foot Wallace. Thanks for sharing.

Sea Speed said:

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For an absolutely brutal work of fiction, I recommend Cormac Mccarthy's Blood Meridian

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I read this a while back as well. Actually started it and then he passed while I was reading the book.

I much preferred Empire of the Summer Moon but they are entirely, entirely different works. I actually did not care as much for Blood Meridian, even though I thought I would. I think the writing style just made it difficult to read how I normally do. Still a decent read, but maybe 3/5 for me whereas Empire of the Summer Moon is an easy 5*.

Apache said:

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Quote:

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Am i wrong in thinking this?

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Absolutely not.
There is a progressive belief that "culture" can't be bad, thus they overlook the horrific aspects of historical & modern groups of people because they are a minority or oppressed by a larger, more powerful force (generally Western European).

This progressive belief turns a blind eye to such things as:
Aztec slavery & human sacrifice
Native American constant warfare, slavery, cannibalism
Muslim oppression of women, Jews, homosexuals & their enslavement of millions of Africans
African slavery, corruption & despotism
The class system & racism in India
Etc. Etc.

Western Civ. has its problems, but its core principals of property ownership, human rights, rule of law, self determination etc. are what dragged the world out of the Middle Ages & into Modernity.

(Sorry went a little history/politics board. Back to your regularly scheduled Comanche conversation)

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Could some of this thought process come from lumping all Native Americans into one pot, rather than looking at each region, or even individual tribe, independently?

I know very little about any outside of the plains tribes but my understanding is that there are some east coast tribes that were peaceful and were very much mistreated without the warring between themselves and the settlers.

I've somewhat come to the conclusion that sympathy towards them from the general public has also simplistically been applied to all Native Americans without knowing the details of the differences between the actions of the different tribes.

Quote:

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Could some of this thought process come from lumping all Native Americans into one pot, rather than looking at each region, or even individual tribe, independently?

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Absolutely. Painting with a broad brush in black & white (good v. evil) is much easier than a nuanced approach that requires critical thought. Political extremists know the public abhors thinking, especially critical thinking - so they simplify to a catchy rhyming sound bite and rally the masses around it.
(Example: From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be Free!)

Quote:

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I know very little about any outside of the plains tribes but my understanding is that there are some east coast tribes that were peaceful and were very much mistreated without the warring between themselves and the settlers.

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To be honest, I don't know a ton about the Eastern Tribes. I suspect they were somewhere between the Commanch & the Amish in terms of warmaking.

Quote:

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I've somewhat come to the conclusion that sympathy towards them from the general public has also simplistically been applied to all Native Americans without knowing the details of the differences between the actions of the different tribes.

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The general public lacks the curiosity, desire & intelligence to flesh out much of anything.

The general public wants a tweet or TikTok video to tell them all they should know about the 400+ year interactions between Europeans & Native Americans, or even better, they want someone else to tell them about said tweet or TikTok more concisely so they don't have to do it themselves.

fun fact, my great great great great grandfather was Geronimo. he was an apache, but still wanted to throw this out

highvelocity said:

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fun fact, my great great great great grandfather was Geronimo. he was an apache, but still wanted to throw this out

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Oh, cool, so he is one of 32 great great great great grandfathers you have.

only one thats of any notoriety

Sure. But that's the one he was closest with.

atmdds03 said:

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Sure. But that's the one he was closest with.

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Exactly! No one ever claims the 1 in 32 great great great great grandmothers that was a prostitute!

Has anyone read The Comanche Empire by Pekka Hmlinen? That is the other main book about the Comanches that I have come across.

Fun fact. Custer is my Great…….! I don't claim that very often if ever.

I'm a direct descendent of John Coffee Hays.

My grandfather was named Jack Hays after him.

I guess that sort of makes me Van Helsing around here

Fishing Fools said:

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Fun fact. Custer is my Great…….! I don't claim that very often if ever.

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And Ulysses S. Grant is a relative of mine. At least I know where our affinity for alcohol comes from.

I did have a grandmother that ran a brothel! I have a fun group of ancestors

highvelocity said:

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I did have a grandmother that ran a brothel! I have a fun group of ancestors

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If it was in Texas, I'm sure one of my grandfathers frequented it!

jwoodmd said:

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highvelocity said:

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I did have a grandmother that ran a brothel! I have a fun group of ancestors

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If it was in Texas, I'm sure one of my grandfathers frequented it!

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Another successful texags hook up.

Taylor Sherdian bought the film rights to Empire

This is promising!

Tecolote said:

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Fishing Fools said:

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Fun fact. Custer is my Great…….! I don't claim that very often if ever.

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And Ulysses S. Grant is a relative of mine. At least I know where our affinity for alcohol comes from.

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I have been told I am a descendant of William W Belknap. What a small world.

Which reading format do people recommend for Empire of the Summer Moon? Audio book or physical book?

I'm about halfway through the audible version. Well narrated. Happy with my choice so far

Just picked the book below, looking forward to reading.

https://www.amazon.com/Battles-Red-River-War-Archeological/dp/1603440275



Picked it up at the museum in Quitaque. Small museum, only open for a few hours each Saturday. But has an amazing collection of fossils, arrowheads, cavalry items from the Red River Wars, and even finds from the 1841 Texas - Santa Fe Expedition.

https://comancherocanyons.org/

https://www.facebook.com/comancherocanyonsmuseum

Yesterday said:

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I've become interested about this tribe. Especially the time they spent in North/west Texas. Does anyone have some good books or even better, some half truth folklore stories about them in this part of the country?

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Here's one you can read on-line

https://archive.org/details/indiandepredatio00wilb/page/1/mode/1up

Indian depredations in Texas : reliable accounts of battles, wars, adventures, forays, murders, massacres, etc., together with biographical sketches of many of the most noted Indian fighters and frontiersmen of Texas

It was published in 1806.

One of my Ancestors is Rueben C Smith, Veteran of the Mexican / American war and Texas Ranger. HE was killed by Commanches.



https://genealogytrails.com/tex/hillcountry/medina/famSmith.html

Rueben's Grandson was Texas Ranger Zeno Smith
https://texasranger.pastperfectonline.com/byperson?keyword=Smith%2C+Zeno

eric76 said:

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Indian depredations in Texas : reliable accounts of battles, wars, adventures, forays, murders, massacres, etc., together with biographical sketches of many of the most noted Indian fighters and frontiersmen of Texas

It was published in 1806.

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In Spain?

axan77 said:

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Empire of the Summer Moon is my favorite. This one is also good but extremely in-depth:


For fiction, McMurtey's Comanche Moon is my second favorite of all his books (after Lonesome Dove).

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T.R. Fehrenbach's Comanches covers a lot of territory, including how they came to Texas and carries through Quanah Parker. Outstanding historian.

Cool story on your ancestors.

Good read. Thanks