Explain to me the ROW versus easement like I'm 5 years old please.

Be thankful its just utility poles. I have a situation where I was notified of dual high voltage transmission lines where they need a 50yard wide easement clearing. Im interviewing attorneys now to be part of the docket. No fun whatsoever. Good luck op

ROW - Based on the pictures this appears to be a state highway / fm road. ROW would refer to the State road Right of Way, the land outside of your property owned by the state that contains the road, ditch, etc… TXDoT will grant utilities permits to install facilities within the state ROW provided they meet certain criteria.

Easement - An easement (or often called a Right of way easement) would give the utility the specific rights to install and maintain facilities (along with other defined uses) on your specific property.

Ag210 said:

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ROW - Based on the pictures this appears to be a state highway / fm road. ROW would refer to the State road Right of Way, the land outside of your property owned by the state that contains the road, ditch, etc… TXDoT will grant utilities permits to install facilities within the state ROW provided they meet certain criteria.

Easement - An easement (or often called a Right of way easement) would give the utility the specific rights to install and maintain facilities (along with other defined uses) on your specific property.

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Accurate.

An Easement is a specific length x width across your property for a specific use. Usually for a utility but it does not have to be. You can grant a neighbor an Easement to get to another property for instance.

These utility easements will limit you on being able to put any type of structure within the easement area or to build a pond/tank in that area.

As to asking them to move it across the road, thats most likely not going to work unless you happen to own both sides of the road and can give them a good reason. Whoever did the current design is going to be very owner proud of himself and will need a good reason to change it.

You definitely want to be proactive in this and stay out in front of it. Burying your head in sand won't make it go away, but I typically have at least one landowner per project that tries this method.

Pretty much every landowner up and down this road is ready to fight this.

So basically there's two possibilities here.

1. They have a row because the state granted it to them via permit
2. Someone back in the day granted them an easement onto my property

Seems like 1 is more likely?

Gunny456 said:

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You know perhaps the OP also owns across the road. If it is owned by someone else maybe that guy would not care. That's how it worked for me. Not going to do any harm to ask.
We had encore in Kimble county. Never knew them to run distribution lines to landowners. That was the job of the CO-OP in our county.

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Most of the state population doesn't have co-op distribution. I was surprised to learn most rural areas of the state are on co-op distribution.

https://texas-ec.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/TEC-Co-ops-Map.pdf

213 Grove said:

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I get that but how they have it marked makes no sense. Wondering if they mislabeled. I work in utility coordination and work with Oncor a lot.

My two sense is those stakes represent the edge/limits of the right of way and they ordered this survey first so they can design their pole placement. Utility companies typically place their poles 2 feet inside the right of way barring no other conflicts.

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If the stakes really are a centerline, then the fence is in the wrong spot?

Probably construction limit. That is as far as they are allowed to use equipment or place anything. The pole line itself will likely be 5 feet inside the ROW or easement line, such that it is accessible from both sides and anything with an offset suspension or brace will still be within the ROW.

I have bluebonnet coop poles going across part of my property. It hasn't been a big deal for me. About every 2 years they come out and trim the pole line and inspect the poles.

Agree, and with normal Eagle above. What he is saying is correct. You need to call the surveyor that did the staking and find out what those are for. Or call local oncor office to find out their plan.

Also can look at your survey/deed to find any easements on schedule B. Or pay for a title research on your own if you don't have the survey or if it's basic and doesn't show that info. Title research might be 200 to 500 dollars, but just call a title company to find out.

Most likely #1

And good luck

A lot of state roads have poles in the state row

Look up TxDOT utility accommodation policy, I am pretty sure it is state law that they can put poles in state row

Hell, I think one of the intents of fm roads was to give utilities a place to go

It is likely not #2 because they asked to buy an easement

nactownag said:

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Pretty much every landowner up and down this road is ready to fight this.

So basically there's two possibilities here.

1. They have a row because the state granted it to them via permit
2. Someone back in the day granted them an easement onto my property

Seems like 1 is more likely?

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I think it's #1 unless you find an easement that was previously recorded on your property. Electric distribution lines are routinely placed in TxDOT right-of-way (ROW), usually in the outer three feet of the ROW or so pursuant to TxDOT"s utility accommodation rules that someone else mentioned above. I'm not suggesting you & your neighbors have to like it, but this is a common practice in TX.

Utilities have been running lines in state ROW for as long as the state has allowed it. Turns out that people like using electricity to light and heat their home instead of kerosene and wood burning stoves.

HTownAg98 said:

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Utilities have been running lines in state ROW for as long as the state has allowed it. Turns out that people like using electricity to light and heat their home instead of kerosene and wood burning stoves.

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This.

If the utility is looking to run lines in what's most likely a public ROW and they're not already there, where does OP's power come from? There have to be distribution lines somewhere that branch off into his property.

While not perfect, and you want to ensure there's no trespass in the placement of the lines, does anybody really think the power company doesn't have the right to run these lines there? That's their entire reason for existence- the generation & distribution of electricity.

The only real concern besides the accurate placement is if the power lines will run over your entry-drive to the property that they be high enough as to not cause an issue if you need to bring equipment of some sort in or out of your land.

I am not receiving power from this line. I'm on a co op.
So no it isn't benefitting me in any way.

nactownag said:

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I am not receiving power from this line. I'm on a co op.
So no it isn't benefitting me in any way.

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That's not what I asked- I asked where you get your power from? It has to come from somewhere.

And while you absolutely need to ensure these lines don't encroach on your land or go outside the public ROW (where they're usually intended to go) or a recorded easement of some kind (this can be found on your title and survey docs from when you purchased the property) the idea that a landowner can prevent the installation of power lines from going in that space seems rather absurd to me. It may not be aesthetically pleasing but that's part of the bargain in owning land which fronts the public ROW.

I'm sure you would be offering up your land as tribute in you were in my shoes.

The entity is Oncor.
They are a public utility- I would assume they also have eminent domain rights to install facilities.

In the end they could just condemn whatever private ROW is needed, correct?

nactownag said:

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I'm sure you would be offering up your land as tribute in you were in my shoes.

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But that's the point, the areas they have staked out doesn't appear to be your land. It's adjacent to your land.

And it's so commonplace for power lines to be run in those ROW that the idea of it negatively impacting your property values is pretty laughable.

In the city sure. Where I am it's not uncommon to not see power lines as you can see I don't have them currently.

nactownag said:

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In the city sure. Where I am it's not uncommon to not see power lines as you can see I don't have them currently.

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I get that. But then where are the power lines currently? You get your power from a co-op distribution network but where are the transmission lines?

I get you may not want them there and you need to be vigilant to ensure they don't encroach on your property but if they're correctly siting those proposed poles in the TxDOT ROW or an existing easement you don't have a leg to stand on and in the case of the TxDOT ROW, it's not your land. It's just one of the vagaries of owning land fronting a public ROW.

I don't disagree but I'll do what I can to make life difficult.

The power for my house is buried. No poles. I'm not sure where it is sourced from but obviously not coming in from poles. I'm on deep east Texas co-op.

I mean, here are multiple shots of spots around Nacogdoches where there are power lines in the public ROW and some that appear to be on private property (or in an easement):

https://maps.app.goo.gl/C9PSHhMuDhSsySzS8

https://maps.app.goo.gl/jAcXT7LMXM8iZTjY7

https://maps.app.goo.gl/UafVDMQZJFfQGkRr5

https://maps.app.goo.gl/aKZyP84XDHumB1YR7

These appear to be some fairly high-dollar homes with high-tension transmission lines in close proximity:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/J7nodvfTMCJJyUJQ6

And you mention being off FM2259 where it appears the poles are sited in easements on private property and not in the ROW:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/xfsrTEYFobk68mWL8

nactownag said:

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I don't disagree but I'll do what I can to make life difficult.

The power for my house is buried. No poles. I'm not sure where it is sourced from but obviously not coming in from poles. I'm on deep east Texas co-op.

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But the power come from somewhere and looking around, even on FM2259 it ain't all buried. You or a prior owner had the wherewithal to have those power lines buried on your property but that doesn't appear to be the case all around.

I get that it's not ideal from an aesthetic perspective but as long as they're not on your property or some properly recorded easement some advice Clayton Williams once had about the weather seems relevant here.

You have folks on here that have not invested money, time, hard work, and don't understand what it is like to have something like this happen to your land…..because they don't own any that is affected by it.
All power lines/transmission line construction cost accrued by these private companies approved by the PUC are guaranteed to have their cost reimbursed to them within a set amount of time. This " cost" is payed back to them by an increase of electric rates for all users.
We found this out when fighting a transmission line years back that was coming through our land.
So while these companies will spew " budget and cost" to you …. They, in reality, have no skin in the game.
We hired an appraiser company that deals with the construction of power/transmission lines and how much those cause a depreciation of property value. It helped us greatly in negotiating a pathway for the lines.
We took a trip to the UK last summer and it was amazing that most all utilities are buried.

There is a distribution line maybe 50 feet west of the FM on the other side of the road. Is that a Coop's line? Or is Oncor adding another line? Replacing that one?

Go look at one of those poles, there'll be an ID plate on it.

Gunny456 said:

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You have folks on here that have not invested money, time, hard work, and don't understand what it is like to have something like this happen to your land…..because they don't own any that is affected by it.
All power lines/transmission line construction cost accrued by these private companies approved by the PUC are guaranteed to have their cost reimbursed to them within a set amount of time. This " cost" is payed back to them by an increase of electric rates for all users.
We found this out when fighting a transmission line years back that was coming through our land.
So while these companies will spew " budget and cost" to you …. They, in reality, have no skin in the game.
We hired an appraiser company that deals with the construction of power/transmission lines and how much those cause a depreciation of property value. It helped us greatly in negotiating a pathway for the lines.
We took a trip to the UK last summer and it was amazing that most all utilities are buried.

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But it's not HIS land and that's the entire point. It abuts his land.

And the idea they have no skin in the game is absurd. They lay out capital for land acquisition and construction and have to make X% return on that investment to make it make sense. Yes they have some incremental rate increase but they also forecast new users.

As for decreasing the value of the property you're talking apples & oranges between transmission lines set in an easement across your property vs. distribution lines adjacent to your property.

And I'm not sure where in the UK you were that most utility lines were buried, maybe central London where they could use the underground infrastructure of the Tube system but having traveled there extensively, outside of the historic centers underground is not the norm. What they do typically do though is run in the ROW utilized by the train systems which predate nationwide electrification in the early-20th century.

Do some research and see if you can find some old deeds/surveys to your place. A neighbor of mine had a similar issue a few years back. His attorney found that before the road was a state highway it was a county road that the landowners granted right of way for the road. His deed/survey still showed him owning to the middle of the road and the attorney found some old wording of the original county ROW agreement that prohibited the construction of utilities.
Many landowners along the road fought it. They built the line in the ROW but ended up burying it I believe. He passed away shortly thereafter anyway.

Tarpon. I'm not going to argue with you on this. Myself and many other landowners lived the fight with our attorneys for two years on a power line issue. We had various meetings with the PUC and at the time, an Aggie was the PUC director. Our attorney had actually worked for the power entity many years before representing us and 31 other landowners as a group.
The things we discovered and learned during that two year journey were very eye opening. Believe what you want. We know what we were told and the facts we learned.
Just like they told us how the construction of the line would benefit all of Texas with jobs and buying of materials….. and then the Governors chief of staff found out that all the steel and wire was manufactured in foreign countries and all the labor was from a company in Minnesota. You're right…. It's absurd.

Gunny456 said:

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Tarpon. I'm not going to argue with you on this. Myself and many other landowners lived the fight with our attorneys for two years on a power line issue. We had various meetings with the PUC and at the time, an Aggie was the PUC director. Our attorney had actually worked for the power entity many years before representing us and 31 other landowners as a group.
The things we discovered and learned during that two year journey were very eye opening. Believe what you want. We know what we were told and the facts we learned.
Just like they told us how the construction of the line would benefit all of Texas with jobs and buying of materials….. and then the Governors chief of staff found out that all the steel and wire was manufactured in foreign countries and all the labor was from a company in Minnesota. You're right…. It's absurd.

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Whatever Barnes. You're full of crap and you know it.

Gunny456 said:

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Do some research and see if you can find some old deeds/surveys to your place. A neighbor of mine had a similar issue a few years back. His attorney found that before the road was a state highway it was a county road that the landowners granted right of way for the road. His deed/survey still showed him owning to the middle of the road and the attorney found some old wording of the original county ROW agreement that prohibited the construction of utilities.
Many landowners along the road fought it. They built the line in the ROW but ended up burying it I believe. He passed away shortly thereafter anyway.

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OP absolutely has a similar situation with regard to creation of the FM right of way here.

Gunny456 said:

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You have folks on here that have not invested money, time, hard work, and don't understand what it is like to have something like this happen to your land…..because they don't own any that is affected by it.
All power lines/transmission line construction cost accrued by these private companies approved by the PUC are guaranteed to have their cost reimbursed to them within a set amount of time. This " cost" is payed back to them by an increase of electric rates for all users.
We found this out when fighting a transmission line years back that was coming through our land.
So while these companies will spew " budget and cost" to you …. They, in reality, have no skin in the game.
We hired an appraiser company that deals with the construction of power/transmission lines and how much those cause a depreciation of property value. It helped us greatly in negotiating a pathway for the lines.
We took a trip to the UK last summer and it was amazing that most all utilities are buried.

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A transmission line on your property is an apple to the orange that is a distribution line that abuts your property. You can fight the latter all you want, but if they have the right to be there by easement or permit, they can do pretty much whatever they want within the terms of that easement/permit. And you can't recover anything for being adjacent to a power line when said line isn't on your property. All I'd do is make sure they're operating where they're supposed to be, and find something else to spend my time on.

Boy you are an outstanding Aggie my friend.

normaleagle05 said:

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Gunny456 said:

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Do some research and see if you can find some old deeds/surveys to your place. A neighbor of mine had a similar issue a few years back. His attorney found that before the road was a state highway it was a county road that the landowners granted right of way for the road. His deed/survey still showed him owning to the middle of the road and the attorney found some old wording of the original county ROW agreement that prohibited the construction of utilities.
Many landowners along the road fought it. They built the line in the ROW but ended up burying it I believe. He passed away shortly thereafter anyway.

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OP absolutely has a similar situation with regard to creation of the FM right of way here.

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I wonder how prescriptive rights would weigh in. Don't know if the right to lay utilities would be one of those prescriptive rights.

TarponChaser said:

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Gunny456 said:

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Tarpon. I'm not going to argue with you on this. Myself and many other landowners lived the fight with our attorneys for two years on a power line issue. We had various meetings with the PUC and at the time, an Aggie was the PUC director. Our attorney had actually worked for the power entity many years before representing us and 31 other landowners as a group.
The things we discovered and learned during that two year journey were very eye opening. Believe what you want. We know what we were told and the facts we learned.
Just like they told us how the construction of the line would benefit all of Texas with jobs and buying of materials….. and then the Governors chief of staff found out that all the steel and wire was manufactured in foreign countries and all the labor was from a company in Minnesota. You're right…. It's absurd.

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Whatever Barnes. You're full of crap and you know it.

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Hardest working man in oil is always the expert on any thread where he's commenting…. Good thing he's here to compare apples to oranges.

Had a similar issue in front of my house on a line running through Leander. My road was originally picked mainly I think because we were not in the city limits and Cedar Park and Leander were fighting to keep it off Ronald Reagan. I guess they thought it would hurt their tax dollars somehow? Anyways we all grouped together and hired an attorney to help fight it. I think I gave 10K to the attorney personally and we won. Had to go down to the public hearing at the utility commission twice. Crazy thing is early on I proposed that the lines be placed in the big ass median on Ronald Reagan and the attorney scoffed at that idea. Well in the end that is where they ended up putting them. I could have saved everyone a ton of money. Hell for all the attorney fees they could have buried the GD lines! The whole process is just jacked up.