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As millions of Americans become overnight felons...

10,494 Views | 71 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by BenderRodriguez
BSD
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gigem70
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What are a persons options if they own one of these firearms.
ThunderCougarFalconBird
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The 5th Cir. nuked the Trump-era bump stock ban.

https://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions/pub/20/20-51016-CV2.pdf



Hopefully they can fix this too.
BenderRodriguez
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ThunderCougarFalconBird said:

The 5th Cir. nuked the Trump-era bump stock ban.
.


They did. Several years after all the companies making them went out of business.

Economic warfare.
BSD
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Lawsuit #1 has been filed:

https://www.firearmspolicy.org/fpc-files-new-lawsuit-challenging-atf-pistol-brace-rulemaking

(There may have been others, this is just the first I've seen)
lp01
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I'll put this here for those that weren't on the other thread. Here is a link to the landing page with the rules.

Factoring Criteria for Firearms with Attached "Stabilizing Braces"

FAQ's on the rule
aTm2004
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Language warning

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CoDcgAvjzyl/?igshid=MDM4ZDc5MmU=
Blitz88
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joeasht said:

Come and take it

Train 'em up early
BlackGoldAg2011
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for those who don't enjoy reading legal opinions, here is an excerpt from this court of appeals opinion that I found especially pertinent to this discussion:

Quote:

If we were required to defer to the Government's position, the Government could change the scope of criminal liability at any time. Indeed, that is exactly what it has done here. Until 2017, the ATF had never classified non-mechanical bump stocks as machineguns. But now the interpretation is reversed, and the Government would criminalize behavior that it long recognized was lawful. In considering one of the other cases involving the regulation, one member of the Supreme Court explained the problem as such:
Quote:

Chevron's application in this case may be doubtful for other reasons too. The agency used to tell everyone that bump stocks don't qualify as 'machineguns.' Now it says the opposite. The law hasn't changed, only an agency's interpretation of it. How, in all this, can ordinary citizens be expected to keep up? . . . And why should courts, charged with the independent and neutral interpretation of the laws Congress has enacted, defer to such bureaucratic pirouetting?

pg 33
4
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There's no way this bs survives the courts.

No chance.
BlackGoldAg2011
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pg 11, even Diane Feinstein thought the ATF rule making on bump stocks was wrong:
Quote:

Until today, the ATF has consistently stated that bump stocks could not be banned through regulation because they do not fall under the legal definition of a machine gun.

Now, the department has done an about face, claiming that bump stocks do fall under the legal definition of a machine gun and it can ban them through regulations. The fact that ATF said as recently as April 2017 that it lacks this authority gives the gun lobby and its allies even more reason to file a lawsuit to block the regulations.

Unbelievably, the regulation hinges on a dubious analysis claiming that bumping the trigger is not the same as pulling it. The gun lobby and manufacturers will have a field day with this reasoning. What's more, the regulation does not ban all devices that accelerate a semi-automatic weapon[']s rate of fire to that of a machine gun.

Both Justice Department and ATF lawyers know that legislation is the only way to ban bump stocks. The law has not changed since 1986, and it must be amended to cover bump stocks and other dangerous devices like trigger cranks. Our bill does thisthe regulation does not.
also, don't waste your time on the dissent, it finds itself rather light on legal and technical analysis, and rather heavy on pearl clutching, and hand wringing. here is an excerpt if you want a feel for the dissent:
Quote:

Today, our court extends lenity, once a rule of last resort, to rewrite a vital public safety statute banning machineguns since 1934. In conflict with three other courts of appeals, our court employs its new lenity regime to carve out from federal firearms regulation the bump stocka device that helped the Las Vegas shooter fire over a thousand rounds during an eleven-minute long attack, at times shooting about nine bullets per second, killing at least 58 people and wounding hundreds more.
as opposed to a clip from the final opinion:
Quote:

Many commentators argue that non-mechanical bump stocks contribute to firearm deaths and that the Final Rule is good public policy. We express no opinion on those arguments because it is not our job to determine our nation's public policy. That solemn responsibility lies with the Congress, and our task is confined to deciding cases and controversies, which requires us to apply the law as Congress has written it.
BenderRodriguez
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4 said:

There's no way this bs survives the courts.

No chance.


But they're doing it anyway.

That tells us quite a bit, doesn't it?
4
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BenderRodriguez said:

4 said:

There's no way this bs survives the courts.

No chance.


But they're doing it anyway.

That tells us quite a bit, doesn't it?

I agree. I think every time the government tries one of these moves, each and every one of us should go buy another gun immediately.

They are illustrating the very reason for the second amendment.

This one is so blatantly unconstitutional, that I just think it will be blocked immediately as soon as it gets to the courts. Could be as early as tomorrow.
schmellba99
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4 said:

There's no way this bs survives the courts.

No chance.


Maybe not. Maybe it does.

We were all old that bamacare would never survive judicial scrutiny....and it is sill here.

Courts are finicky and fickle and it absolutely sucks we have to depend on their interpretation to get the correct answer.
BSD
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AgEng06
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RikkiTikkaTagem
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BSD said:




Must have been a form 1 for an SBR. Maybe he got a vasectomy and needed a form 4
BrazosDog02
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gigem70 said:

What are a persons options if they own one of these firearms.
My suggestion is to just shut your yap about it (and i mean that in a friendly way). I do not understand the desire to 'do something'.

All my big shot friends that talk about militias, resisting, and how bad ass they are when it comes to the 2nd amendment are stumbling over their own wieners to figure out how to comply and volunteer information to the government with a haste that numbs my brain.

I thought we were going to form militias and water the tree of liberty and resist and stuff. You didn't carry you AR15 into Whataburger and piss off all the democrats just to roll over now did you?
skelso
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schmellba99 said:

To Whom It May Concern:

As you well know, on February 1st ...


Worse than that, Today and tomorrow ATF is holding webinars for FFL's to explain the changes and answer questions. I was in the second one from 1 - 2:30pm central.

Why is that time critical info?

They stated that the ruling was published into the federal register and went into affect at 12:01am TODAY, Jan 31,2023... Before they told FFL's the new rules ro play by.

One of the FFL's asked what about the braced pistols he transferred from open of business today until the webinar. Their response "Any transfers after 12:01am today are illegal transfer of an SBR" When asked what options were available to remedy their response was "You may not recover the firearm as that would be a subsequent illegal transfer. You must report the transfer to your local ATF office for seizure" They went on to say "Bear in mind, if you dont have a SOT and transferred such a weapon after 12:01am today, you have committed the crime of distributing NFA items without proper licensing"...

TLDR: They are enforcing violation of rules put in place before the rules were explained to dealers.
schmellba99
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Holy Sht.

I wish i was surprised...but i am not. Looks like the feds sprung their trap, will likely be a lot of FFL licenses revoked now. All by design.
Buck Compton
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skelso said:

schmellba99 said:

To Whom It May Concern:

As you well know, on February 1st ...


Worse than that, Today and tomorrow ATF is holding webinars for FFL's to explain the changes and answer questions. I was in the second one from 1 - 2:30pm central.

Why is that time critical info?

They stated that the ruling was published into the federal register and went into affect at 12:01am TODAY, Jan 31,2023... Before they told FFL's the new rules ro play by.

One of the FFL's asked what about the braced pistols he transferred from open of business today until the webinar. Their response "Any transfers after 12:01am today are illegal transfer of an SBR" When asked what options were available to remedy their response was "You may not recover the firearm as that would be a subsequent illegal transfer. You must report the transfer to your local ATF office for seizure" They went on to say "Bear in mind, if you dont have a SOT and transferred such a weapon after 12:01am today, you have committed the crime of distributing NFA items without proper licensing"...

TLDR: They are enforcing violation of rules put in place before the rules were explained to dealers.
Yikes. You can't make that **** up.

/laughing so I don't cry
Breggy Popup
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Be proud my brothers and sisters in Texas...

Smeghead4761
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BSD said:

Lawsuit #1 has been filed:

https://www.firearmspolicy.org/fpc-files-new-lawsuit-challenging-atf-pistol-brace-rulemaking

(There may have been others, this is just the first I've seen)
Apparently, at least part of the FPC's argument is that, since something like 30-40 MILLION braces have been sold, that means they're in common use. Thus, per Bruen, putting them under the NFA is unconstitutional.

Now, an interesting bit of legislative history I picked up from Gun Jesus on YouTube: the reason that SBRs and SBSs are on the NFA in the first place is because the NFA initially included pistols as well. SBRs and SBSs were included to stop people from chopping down rifles and shotguns to make ersatz pistols for nefarious criminal reasons.

There was enough opposition that pistols were dropped from the final bill that went on to be passed into law, but they never bothered to remove SBRs and SBSs. (Also AOWs).

Also, the reason that the barrel length is 16" for rifles and 18" for shotguns is the M1 carbine, and the fact that Uncle Sam had sold tens of thousands of them as surplus before anyone noticed that it was under the then limit of 18".
cottonpicker
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Bpriefert
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BSD said:



Glad to see the youngsters getting involved!
BSD
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agsalaska
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BenderRodriguez said:

Language warning in the following commentary on all this, but it's spot on.

Me? I keep track of things and make my decisions accordingly. But there are a lot of gun owning Americans who aren't on things like gun related forums, don't keep track of law changes, and will have zero idea this even happened, because it darn sure isn't going to show up on their local nightly news. It was legal when they bought it and they are going to continue on with life assuming the same rules apply. Some poor innocent soul is going to get their life absolutely destroyed because they don't keep up with firearms news someday. That's not okay.






This x 1000.

I spoke to a couple of friends just in the last week that own multiple firearms, carry daily, will argue all day about best deer cartridges, etc. that had absolutely no idea this was coming down.

It will absolutely be weaponized by the feds whenever that's convenient for them.
HalifaxAg
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BSD said:


Definitely a "short barrel"
AgLA06
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HalifaxAg said:

BSD said:


Definitely a "short barrel"
I imagine it has a collapsible stock to get every inch out of the barrel for those long shots.

Those with fixed stocks just don't understand.
BlackGoldAg2011
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BSD said:


feels like a good time to go back and watch my all time favorite ATF video
tandy miller
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I forgot about that video. Fantastic
AG81
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The 5th Circuit struck down the bump stock ban. If the Supreme Court concurs, which is likely, this will fall also. Not concerned.
FTAG 2000
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skelso said:

schmellba99 said:

To Whom It May Concern:

As you well know, on February 1st ...


Worse than that, Today and tomorrow ATF is holding webinars for FFL's to explain the changes and answer questions. I was in the second one from 1 - 2:30pm central.

Why is that time critical info?

They stated that the ruling was published into the federal register and went into affect at 12:01am TODAY, Jan 31,2023... Before they told FFL's the new rules ro play by.

One of the FFL's asked what about the braced pistols he transferred from open of business today until the webinar. Their response "Any transfers after 12:01am today are illegal transfer of an SBR" When asked what options were available to remedy their response was "You may not recover the firearm as that would be a subsequent illegal transfer. You must report the transfer to your local ATF office for seizure" They went on to say "Bear in mind, if you dont have a SOT and transferred such a weapon after 12:01am today, you have committed the crime of distributing NFA items without proper licensing"...

TLDR: They are enforcing violation of rules put in place before the rules were explained to dealers.
That's some evil *****
MaxPower
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BenderRodriguez said:

Language warning in the following commentary on all this, but it's spot on.

Me? I keep track of things and make my decisions accordingly. But there are a lot of gun owning Americans who aren't on things like gun related forums, don't keep track of law changes, and will have zero idea this even happened, because it darn sure isn't going to show up on their local nightly news. It was legal when they bought it and they are going to continue on with life assuming the same rules apply. Some poor innocent soul is going to get their life absolutely destroyed because they don't keep up with firearms news someday. That's not okay.




How many ATF baws you think are going to be squatting at the local gun range the next few days?
Yellerjacket
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Saltwater Assassin said:

Not to totally derail this, but what is everyone doing with their braced pistols?

Do we wait this out and do nothing (hoping the courts inject some sanity), or do we attempt to comply to avoid the gulag?
If you haven't lost yours in a tragic boating accident, as I have, then just keep it in your house locked up and don't do anything to get yourself raided.
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