The North Llano at Junction (Kimble County) is only a series of puddles with a few deeper stretches. It came up a little with the rain in early November. It is mostly known as an intermittent stream anyway and does not have the springs that the South Llano River does. Even the South Llano this summer flowed way below minimal CFS. We were below the 10 inch mark for total year rainfall until most of the immediate area received at least 2.5 inches in early November. I have only .1 inch measured so far in December.
Hill Country Wells Going Dry
21,373 Views |
113 Replies |
Last: 3 yr ago by Tony Franklins Other Shoe
I cannot remember the last time there has been water in the Frio on I35 between Pearsall and Dilley.
Gunny456 said:
Funny you say that. My old Ag room mate is a project engineer for Corp of Engineers. He told that they had a plan to build a new reservoir on the Llano River just below Junction. However the land prices are so high in that area that even using eminent domain they could not afford to purchase the land needed.... so it was dropped.
I'll be the first to say I don't know much about this, but folks from Mason told me it was some oil guy pushing for the new lake near his new place and it was him who wanted to put a dam on the Llano. They published the intent to do so publicly but in the Sonora paper hoping it wouldn't get noticed. Again, I'm sure I wasn't getting the most unbiased side.
It's a big issue and local authorities are behind the curve in dealing with larger cities sucking water out of rural areas. The Vista Ridge project (Burleson and Lee County Area) that sends water to San Antonio has left many folks with dry wells: https://sanantonioreport.org/central-texas-landowners-blame-saws-vista-ridge-pipeline-for-dry-wells/ Another big project just approved by the Brazos Valley Groundwater Conservation District in Robertson could will suck more wells dry so water can be sold to municipalities. https://www.kbtx.com/2022/11/01/permit-approved-that-would-remove-large-amounts-water-robertson-county/
This is happening across the state--especially in the Hill Country. Folks need to pay attention and hold elected officials accountable--with reasonable restrictions on water well drilling. Commercial type wells should be very closely supervised. Growth will happen--but sensible restrictions need to be implemented on both the county and state level. The frightening thing is that once these are approved no one really monitors what's happening until people speak up and complain. Unfortunately, by that time it's too late.
This is happening across the state--especially in the Hill Country. Folks need to pay attention and hold elected officials accountable--with reasonable restrictions on water well drilling. Commercial type wells should be very closely supervised. Growth will happen--but sensible restrictions need to be implemented on both the county and state level. The frightening thing is that once these are approved no one really monitors what's happening until people speak up and complain. Unfortunately, by that time it's too late.
Reload84 said:
It's a big issue and local authorities are behind the curve in dealing with larger cities sucking water out of rural areas. The Vista Ridge project (Burleson and Lee County Area) that sends water to San Antonio has left many folks with dry wells: https://sanantonioreport.org/central-texas-landowners-blame-saws-vista-ridge-pipeline-for-dry-wells/ Another big project just approved by the Brazos Valley Groundwater Conservation District in Robertson could will suck more wells dry so water can be sold to municipalities. https://www.kbtx.com/2022/11/01/permit-approved-that-would-remove-large-amounts-water-robertson-county/
This is happening across the state--especially in the Hill Country. Folks need to pay attention and hold elected officials accountable--with reasonable restrictions on water well drilling. Commercial type wells should be very closely supervised. Growth will happen--but sensible restrictions need to be implemented on both the county and state level. The frightening thing is that once these are approved no one really monitors what's happening until people speak up and complain. Unfortunately, by that time it's too late.
And as much as I hate overly intrusive government regulation I think that we're going to have to see some serious regulations handed down regarding yards, landscaping, and water usage on places like golf courses. Especially west of I35 and then I37 south of San Antonio.
I recently learned about this org:
https://aquiferconservation.org/
Seems appropriate for this thread.
https://aquiferconservation.org/
Seems appropriate for this thread.
“Ambition is when you expect yourself to close the gap between what you have and what you want.
Entitlement is when you expect others to close the gap between what you have and what you want.”— James Clear
Entitlement is when you expect others to close the gap between what you have and what you want.”— James Clear
Agreed. Time to outlaw watering golf courses. Let them play soccer or tennis or pickle ball.
You neglected the single biggest factor - the simple fact that the central Texas ecosystem cannot handle the amount of people that live there long term without serious issues affecting natural resources, the primary one being water availability.Kenneth_2003 said:
1) Too many ranchitos with unregulated, if you can drill it you can pump it water wells.
2) Overgrazing in the 1800's by sheep/goat farmers led to widespread massive errosion.
2a) Overgrazing combined with elimination of fire leads to introduction to non-native species that are not drought tolerant and highly wasteful of groundwater.
My understanding that prior to 2 above much of the hill country that we recognize today as rocky hillsides and scrub oak and cedar (ash juniper) was grassland.
The lack of real management of cedar is also a big factor in lack of groundwater. Cedars use a massive amount of water annually, and before the greenies got a hold of everything, cedar was much better controlled. Even the Comanche used to have controlled burns of cedar that no longer happen now. Walk any creek in the Austin area and you'll be hard pressed to be able to walk 2 or 3 feet without having to go over and around cedars that are essentially weeds.
When that 500 acre pasture can provide as much income as selling it to whomever that cuts it up into 1/8 acre lots, you'll see more 500 acre pastures. And if that 500 acre pasture does produce as much or more than selling it....well, you'll see complaining about how nobody can afford to hunt anymore.BrazosDog02 said:We've coasted along as a species for a long time. We've had the luxury of resource availability far outpacing our need. Funny thing about exponential population growth though. Our resources don't do that. This whole human race experiment will sort itself out eventually, but we will kick and scream to 'fix' it. We will kick the can down the road via eminent domain, but it won't fix anything without a serious population correction. It's funny to watch stuff like this as if THIS will solve the problem...yep yep yep. When in reality, we just push it down the road a little more until it becomes someone else's problem.CS78 said:
Sounds like more reservoirs on the west TX rivers will be the only long term solution. Theyll tax the users to cover the crazy immanent domain cost to acquire the land. Can only imagine the hissing and gnashing of teeth that will entail. The sooner the better though.
This entire situation is exactly why civilizations don't last long and why we will never know if there is other life outside of this planet.
We will see the same thing with food because its way better to have a 300 acre shopping mall than it is to have a 300 acre crop. 500 acre pasture...F--- NO! Let's cut that beetch up into 1/8 acre lots and slap some houses on it (and then complain about water shortage and send nasty emails to people because their yard is brown).
As it stands right now...we still produce enough food in this country alone to feed the world, so those 500 acre pastures going to housing developments arent hurting much outside of your view and things like excessive runoff that increases flood frequencies and increased water use on local water supplies.
That's the nature of the beast.
T Boone didn't buy any water rights. Water rights are not a thing for groundwater in Texas unless controlled by a groundwater conservation district. He pre-emptively started a groundwater conservation district on his ranch to keep anybody from preventing him from exporting the water from his wells. He had his ranch employees who lived on the ranch become the board of directors for the conservation district and vote to allow export of the water. He was banking on Rick Perry's super utility corridors (I forget what the official name was) to give him easy right of way to one of the major metro areas to sell the water. The cost of the pipeline would have been peanuts compared to what he could have sold it for.SunrayAg said:
About 20 years ago, T Boone Pickens bought up most of the water rights from the rough country in the eastern Panhandle, and was prepared to spend a billion dollars on a pipeline to pipe it to the San Antonio area. It has been well known for a long time that population growth in the Edwards Aquifer area is far outpacing recharge, even when not in a horrible drought like this year.
The panhandle water district made a deal with T Boone's group to keep the water up here... But you are not going to invest a billion in a pipeline unless you are making 2 billion on the water.
I guess what I'm saying is according to all the water guru's I know, farmers and ranchers in the Edwards aquifer area of Texas are F-ed. And as the population in the area grows they are just going to get more F-ed.
OK, I'll be that guy.......it's actually ashe juniper and no kin to the cedar family ...other than that you're spot on and for those of us who suffer from "cedar fever" from the pollen of the bastages from about now until mid Feb total eradication statewide would be a blessing, golden cheeked warbler or not.schmellba99 said:You neglected the single biggest factor - the simple fact that the central Texas ecosystem cannot handle the amount of people that live there long term without serious issues affecting natural resources, the primary one being water availability.Kenneth_2003 said:
1) Too many ranchitos with unregulated, if you can drill it you can pump it water wells.
2) Overgrazing in the 1800's by sheep/goat farmers led to widespread massive errosion.
2a) Overgrazing combined with elimination of fire leads to introduction to non-native species that are not drought tolerant and highly wasteful of groundwater.
My understanding that prior to 2 above much of the hill country that we recognize today as rocky hillsides and scrub oak and cedar (ash juniper) was grassland.
The lack of real management of cedar is also a big factor in lack of groundwater. Cedars use a massive amount of water annually, and before the greenies got a hold of everything, cedar was much better controlled. Even the Comanche used to have controlled burns of cedar that no longer happen now. Walk any creek in the Austin area and you'll be hard pressed to be able to walk 2 or 3 feet without having to go over and around cedars that are essentially weeds.
schmellba99 said:You neglected the single biggest factor - the simple fact that the central Texas ecosystem cannot handle the amount of people that live there long term without serious issues affecting natural resources, the primary one being water availability.Kenneth_2003 said:
1) Too many ranchitos with unregulated, if you can drill it you can pump it water wells.
2) Overgrazing in the 1800's by sheep/goat farmers led to widespread massive errosion.
2a) Overgrazing combined with elimination of fire leads to introduction to non-native species that are not drought tolerant and highly wasteful of groundwater.
My understanding that prior to 2 above much of the hill country that we recognize today as rocky hillsides and scrub oak and cedar (ash juniper) was grassland.
The lack of real management of cedar is also a big factor in lack of groundwater. Cedars use a massive amount of water annually, and before the greenies got a hold of everything, cedar was much better controlled. Even the Comanche used to have controlled burns of cedar that no longer happen now. Walk any creek in the Austin area and you'll be hard pressed to be able to walk 2 or 3 feet without having to go over and around cedars that are essentially weeds.
This is a great point. I heard about this guy that cleared and killed every bit of cedar on a pretty good size piece of property. Afterwards, springs started running in the creek that ran through the property. Those springs had not run in many years. I'd be all for some kind of cedar eradication program. Especially along Texas' rivers and creeks.
The difference between the before and after pictures of a place riff with the "Cedar" and then cleared of it are pretty astounding. Some folks around here have had their places cleared mechanically by cedar choppers that devour the tree and spit out shavings. Only problem with that is the shavings cover the ground, don't break down for several years and still nothing grows to replace the trees. I cleared our small place of it by cutting and burning. Iwill say this about it though, from a woodworking standpoint it finishes very well and makes for a nice looking piece of work. I used to have a saw mill and milled a bunch of it.Hubert J. Farnsworth said:schmellba99 said:You neglected the single biggest factor - the simple fact that the central Texas ecosystem cannot handle the amount of people that live there long term without serious issues affecting natural resources, the primary one being water availability.Kenneth_2003 said:
1) Too many ranchitos with unregulated, if you can drill it you can pump it water wells.
2) Overgrazing in the 1800's by sheep/goat farmers led to widespread massive errosion.
2a) Overgrazing combined with elimination of fire leads to introduction to non-native species that are not drought tolerant and highly wasteful of groundwater.
My understanding that prior to 2 above much of the hill country that we recognize today as rocky hillsides and scrub oak and cedar (ash juniper) was grassland.
The lack of real management of cedar is also a big factor in lack of groundwater. Cedars use a massive amount of water annually, and before the greenies got a hold of everything, cedar was much better controlled. Even the Comanche used to have controlled burns of cedar that no longer happen now. Walk any creek in the Austin area and you'll be hard pressed to be able to walk 2 or 3 feet without having to go over and around cedars that are essentially weeds.
This is a great point. I heard about this guy that cleared and killed every bit of cedar on a pretty good size piece of property. Afterwards, springs started running in the creek that ran through the property. Those springs had not run in many years. I'd be all for some kind of cedar eradication program. Especially along Texas' rivers and creeks.
txags92 said:T Boone didn't buy any water rights. Water rights are not a thing for groundwater in Texas unless controlled by a groundwater conservation district. He pre-emptively started a groundwater conservation district on his ranch to keep anybody from preventing him from exporting the water from his wells. He had his ranch employees who lived on the ranch become the board of directors for the conservation district and vote to allow export of the water. He was banking on Rick Perry's super utility corridors (I forget what the official name was) to give him easy right of way to one of the major metro areas to sell the water. The cost of the pipeline would have been peanuts compared to what he could have sold it for.SunrayAg said:
About 20 years ago, T Boone Pickens bought up most of the water rights from the rough country in the eastern Panhandle, and was prepared to spend a billion dollars on a pipeline to pipe it to the San Antonio area. It has been well known for a long time that population growth in the Edwards Aquifer area is far outpacing recharge, even when not in a horrible drought like this year.
The panhandle water district made a deal with T Boone's group to keep the water up here... But you are not going to invest a billion in a pipeline unless you are making 2 billion on the water.
I guess what I'm saying is according to all the water guru's I know, farmers and ranchers in the Edwards aquifer area of Texas are F-ed. And as the population in the area grows they are just going to get more F-ed.
T Boone did buy water rights. About 200,000 acres worth to be exact. Then sold them to CRMWA for a huge profit when he encountered massive resistance to his pipeline idea.
It was only the biggest story in the Panhandle for about 5 years…
Gunny456 said:
Funny you say that. My old Ag room mate is a project engineer for Corp of Engineers. He told that they had a plan to build a new reservoir on the Llano River just below Junction. However the land prices are so high in that area that even using eminent domain they could not afford to purchase the land needed.... so it was dropped.
Man, having lakefront property there would have been a dream
Hubert J. Farnsworth said:schmellba99 said:You neglected the single biggest factor - the simple fact that the central Texas ecosystem cannot handle the amount of people that live there long term without serious issues affecting natural resources, the primary one being water availability.Kenneth_2003 said:
1) Too many ranchitos with unregulated, if you can drill it you can pump it water wells.
2) Overgrazing in the 1800's by sheep/goat farmers led to widespread massive errosion.
2a) Overgrazing combined with elimination of fire leads to introduction to non-native species that are not drought tolerant and highly wasteful of groundwater.
My understanding that prior to 2 above much of the hill country that we recognize today as rocky hillsides and scrub oak and cedar (ash juniper) was grassland.
The lack of real management of cedar is also a big factor in lack of groundwater. Cedars use a massive amount of water annually, and before the greenies got a hold of everything, cedar was much better controlled. Even the Comanche used to have controlled burns of cedar that no longer happen now. Walk any creek in the Austin area and you'll be hard pressed to be able to walk 2 or 3 feet without having to go over and around cedars that are essentially weeds.
This is a great point. I heard about this guy that cleared and killed every bit of cedar on a pretty good size piece of property. Afterwards, springs started running in the creek that ran through the property. Those springs had not run in many years. I'd be all for some kind of cedar eradication program. Especially along Texas' rivers and creeks.
I forget the guy's name but I know what you're talking about. Wealthy dude who has spent tons & tons of money returning his ranch to basically what the Hill Country was like before the cedars took over.
And he has the resources to battle the environmental whackos more worried about the golden-cheeked warbler than the bigger picture.
There is no such thing as water rights to groundwater in Texas unless conferred by a groundwater conservation district. So he didn't need to "buy" them because he already owned the land and had created his own district. There may have been massive resistance to the idea up there, but the only thing that stopped it was the pipeline was too expensive to build without either a pre-existing pipeline corridor to build through via the "Pickens plan" he was trying to get congress to build for his windmill power or through Perry's mega-corridors plan. When he couldn't get one of those approved, he sold the water locally instead. But he never "bought water rights" because no such thing exists for Texas groundwater outside of those created by GWCDs. As long as you are not deliberately or maliciously running somebody's well dry, biggest pump rules in Texas and whatever you can pump is yours unless limited by a GWCD.SunrayAg said:txags92 said:T Boone didn't buy any water rights. Water rights are not a thing for groundwater in Texas unless controlled by a groundwater conservation district. He pre-emptively started a groundwater conservation district on his ranch to keep anybody from preventing him from exporting the water from his wells. He had his ranch employees who lived on the ranch become the board of directors for the conservation district and vote to allow export of the water. He was banking on Rick Perry's super utility corridors (I forget what the official name was) to give him easy right of way to one of the major metro areas to sell the water. The cost of the pipeline would have been peanuts compared to what he could have sold it for.SunrayAg said:
About 20 years ago, T Boone Pickens bought up most of the water rights from the rough country in the eastern Panhandle, and was prepared to spend a billion dollars on a pipeline to pipe it to the San Antonio area. It has been well known for a long time that population growth in the Edwards Aquifer area is far outpacing recharge, even when not in a horrible drought like this year.
The panhandle water district made a deal with T Boone's group to keep the water up here... But you are not going to invest a billion in a pipeline unless you are making 2 billion on the water.
I guess what I'm saying is according to all the water guru's I know, farmers and ranchers in the Edwards aquifer area of Texas are F-ed. And as the population in the area grows they are just going to get more F-ed.
T Boone did buy water rights. About 200,000 acres worth to be exact. Then sold them to CRMWA for a huge profit when he encountered massive resistance to his pipeline idea.
It was only the biggest story in the Panhandle for about 5 years…
The buffalo ran all through this area, mainly on top of the hills and plateaus where there was plenty grass, open space, oak mottes and the Ashe Juniper was mainly confined to the canyon slopes. The Golden-cheeked Warbler was always here and found nesting material from those cedars. The GCW is a beautiful bird and the states only indigenous nesting bird, nesting only in the Texas Hill Country. I know the bird is held in disdain to a lot of people, developers etc. but I can make, and do make, cash $$$ guiding mostly out-of-staters, to see the bird and get their photographs. I do agree there is way too much cedar and removing a substantial amount would be beneficial to getting other more desirable plant species going. And, they do consume lots of water!!
I agree. So how do we go about getting people to go away? I figure if the water runs out, then it will probably work itself out but that takes a long time. Better yet, if you have any ideas on making whats left of the rural country less desirable for folks, I would be interested in that.schmellba99 said:You neglected the single biggest factor - the simple fact that the central Texas ecosystem cannot handle the amount of people that live there long term without serious issues affecting natural resources, the primary one being water availability.Kenneth_2003 said:
1) Too many ranchitos with unregulated, if you can drill it you can pump it water wells.
2) Overgrazing in the 1800's by sheep/goat farmers led to widespread massive errosion.
2a) Overgrazing combined with elimination of fire leads to introduction to non-native species that are not drought tolerant and highly wasteful of groundwater.
My understanding that prior to 2 above much of the hill country that we recognize today as rocky hillsides and scrub oak and cedar (ash juniper) was grassland.
Y'all are trying to solve the wrong problem. Stop figuring out how to supply more water, figure out how to remove the demand for it.
Ban live grass golf courses and grass lawns would be my first choice. The lack of golf courses should run off at some of the folks and discourage others who don't want to play on astroturf.
Quote:
Y'all are trying to solve the wrong problem. Stop figuring out how to supply more water, figure out how to remove the demand for it.
This is exactly right.
The average Texas household uses something like 246 gallons of water per day. That is an absurd amount of water. I hate the idea is additional regulations, but sometimes laws work. Toilets used to use up to 8 gallons per flush before federal mandates and now it is 1.6 gallons.
Water conservation doesn't have to be a partisan issue. We can all get behind it and be better for it
Now do surface water rights adjudicated by the state of Texas.txags92 said:There is no such thing as water rights to groundwater in Texas unless conferred by a groundwater conservation district. So he didn't need to "buy" them because he already owned the land and had created his own district. There may have been massive resistance to the idea up there, but the only thing that stopped it is was the pipeline was too expensive to build without either a pre-existing pipeline corridor to build through via the "Pickens plan" he was trying to get congress to build for his windmill power or through Perry's mega-corridors plan. When he couldn't get one of those approved, he sold the water locally instead. But he never "bought water rights" because no such thing exists for Texas groundwater outside of those created by GWCDs. As long as you are not deliberately or maliciously running somebody's well dry, biggest pump rules in Texas and whatever you can pump is yours unless limited by a GWCD.SunrayAg said:txags92 said:T Boone didn't buy any water rights. Water rights are not a thing for groundwater in Texas unless controlled by a groundwater conservation district. He pre-emptively started a groundwater conservation district on his ranch to keep anybody from preventing him from exporting the water from his wells. He had his ranch employees who lived on the ranch become the board of directors for the conservation district and vote to allow export of the water. He was banking on Rick Perry's super utility corridors (I forget what the official name was) to give him easy right of way to one of the major metro areas to sell the water. The cost of the pipeline would have been peanuts compared to what he could have sold it for.SunrayAg said:
About 20 years ago, T Boone Pickens bought up most of the water rights from the rough country in the eastern Panhandle, and was prepared to spend a billion dollars on a pipeline to pipe it to the San Antonio area. It has been well known for a long time that population growth in the Edwards Aquifer area is far outpacing recharge, even when not in a horrible drought like this year.
The panhandle water district made a deal with T Boone's group to keep the water up here... But you are not going to invest a billion in a pipeline unless you are making 2 billion on the water.
I guess what I'm saying is according to all the water guru's I know, farmers and ranchers in the Edwards aquifer area of Texas are F-ed. And as the population in the area grows they are just going to get more F-ed.
T Boone did buy water rights. About 200,000 acres worth to be exact. Then sold them to CRMWA for a huge profit when he encountered massive resistance to his pipeline idea.
It was only the biggest story in the Panhandle for about 5 years…
C@LAg said:ban green yards.River Bass said:Quote:
Y'all are trying to solve the wrong problem. Stop figuring out how to supply more water, figure out how to remove the demand for it.
This is exactly right.
The average Texas household uses something like 246 gallons of water per day. That is an absurd amount of water. I hate the idea is additional regulations, but sometimes laws work. Toilets used to use up to 8 gallons per flush before federal mandates and now it is 1.6 gallons.
Water conservation doesn't have to be a partisan issue. We can all get behind it and be better for it
and pot (because it too uses a lot of water)
everywhere.
I agree. I know it's not popular but my yard at my place is not watered. I mean…at all. By April or may, west of San Antonio, it's brown, dead, or dying, and dusts sets in. I used my lawnmower one time. It's not pretty but mesquite and *****ly pear grows fine and those look alright to me. I have plants that survive that most call weeds. Certain times of the year I'll get henbit, dollar weed, rye grass, all kinds of stuff I can't identify but it's green sometimes so whatever. This idea of grass that requires artificial support is ridiculously stupid. If your yard requires daily or weekly watering from your times sprinkler system, it wasn't meant to live there.
I was raised in northern Karnes Co and we had an old gentleman that was 96 in 1968 so he was born in 1872. He told us his family came to Texas and landed in Indianola when he was 7 and made a wagon trek to Karnes Co. He said all the way was through prairie land with nothing but grass growing. The only trees were in the creek and river bottoms. A funny story about him......he never drove faster than 20 mph. He was going to Houston when his car broke down around Hallettsville. He made it to an Oldsmobile dealership and bought a brand new 1966 Olds Cutlass 2 dr hardtop with bucket seats, an auto trans with a console shifter and a 425 hp motor....he drove it 20 mph. Every kid in that part of the county wanted that car including me.
Sure, what do you want to know? Totally different subject from groundwater law in Texas.Mas89 said:Now do surface water rights adjudicated by the state of Texas.txags92 said:There is no such thing as water rights to groundwater in Texas unless conferred by a groundwater conservation district. So he didn't need to "buy" them because he already owned the land and had created his own district. There may have been massive resistance to the idea up there, but the only thing that stopped it is was the pipeline was too expensive to build without either a pre-existing pipeline corridor to build through via the "Pickens plan" he was trying to get congress to build for his windmill power or through Perry's mega-corridors plan. When he couldn't get one of those approved, he sold the water locally instead. But he never "bought water rights" because no such thing exists for Texas groundwater outside of those created by GWCDs. As long as you are not deliberately or maliciously running somebody's well dry, biggest pump rules in Texas and whatever you can pump is yours unless limited by a GWCD.SunrayAg said:txags92 said:T Boone didn't buy any water rights. Water rights are not a thing for groundwater in Texas unless controlled by a groundwater conservation district. He pre-emptively started a groundwater conservation district on his ranch to keep anybody from preventing him from exporting the water from his wells. He had his ranch employees who lived on the ranch become the board of directors for the conservation district and vote to allow export of the water. He was banking on Rick Perry's super utility corridors (I forget what the official name was) to give him easy right of way to one of the major metro areas to sell the water. The cost of the pipeline would have been peanuts compared to what he could have sold it for.SunrayAg said:
About 20 years ago, T Boone Pickens bought up most of the water rights from the rough country in the eastern Panhandle, and was prepared to spend a billion dollars on a pipeline to pipe it to the San Antonio area. It has been well known for a long time that population growth in the Edwards Aquifer area is far outpacing recharge, even when not in a horrible drought like this year.
The panhandle water district made a deal with T Boone's group to keep the water up here... But you are not going to invest a billion in a pipeline unless you are making 2 billion on the water.
I guess what I'm saying is according to all the water guru's I know, farmers and ranchers in the Edwards aquifer area of Texas are F-ed. And as the population in the area grows they are just going to get more F-ed.
T Boone did buy water rights. About 200,000 acres worth to be exact. Then sold them to CRMWA for a huge profit when he encountered massive resistance to his pipeline idea.
It was only the biggest story in the Panhandle for about 5 years…
Let's all pile on the golf courses when it's really a non-issue
https://twri.tamu.edu/media/2526/em-116_urbanlandscapewateruse.pdf
https://twri.tamu.edu/media/2526/em-116_urbanlandscapewateruse.pdf
I'm good. Just pointing out that there's more to the water problems than just ground water. Much more.
Beautiful place. If any of you ever have the opportunity to go, do it! They have periodic workshops on land management, etc.
https://hillcountryalliance.org/j-david-bamberger-on-fifty-years-of-coaxing-his-blanco-county-ranch-back-to-life/
https://hillcountryalliance.org/j-david-bamberger-on-fifty-years-of-coaxing-his-blanco-county-ranch-back-to-life/
This kind of thing is exactly what the wildlife exemption aimed to accomplish. On our other ranch, we obtained that exemption and even with TINY efforts in management made drastic improvements. I had species pop up in a couple of years in numbers I'd never seen before. We did a deferred program on a 10 acre piece, and using a little guidance from a biologist and a little common sense resulted in Turks cap growing nearly solid, which in turn drew in thousands of hummingbirds and millions of butterflies and pollinators. It was crazy cool and it took almost no money to do, just a little effort.
It's amazing what can be done when people start living with the land and not on it, raping it for whatever it can give (I see those developers salivating at that number of homes that could be placed on that preserve and yes, f- those guys)
I commend Bamberger for what he did. That's a nice legacy to leave.
It's amazing what can be done when people start living with the land and not on it, raping it for whatever it can give (I see those developers salivating at that number of homes that could be placed on that preserve and yes, f- those guys)
I commend Bamberger for what he did. That's a nice legacy to leave.
Wow.. we grew up in South Texas with plenty of water in the wells .. this thread kind of scares me to be honest, we have seen some of the wells drop quite a bit over the last 10 years but nothing has gone dry. We figured it was fracking with all
The water usage …. This thread kind of brings things into reality pretty quickly ….
The water usage …. This thread kind of brings things into reality pretty quickly ….
Sorry but you are incorrect. Texas is a rule of capture state, and every property owner has the water rights to the groundwater under their property, unless it was retained by a previous owner or restricted by a groundwater district being voted into place.txags92 said:There is no such thing as water rights to groundwater in Texas unless conferred by a groundwater conservation district. So he didn't need to "buy" them because he already owned the land and had created his own district. There may have been massive resistance to the idea up there, but the only thing that stopped it was the pipeline was too expensive to build without either a pre-existing pipeline corridor to build through via the "Pickens plan" he was trying to get congress to build for his windmill power or through Perry's mega-corridors plan. When he couldn't get one of those approved, he sold the water locally instead. But he never "bought water rights" because no such thing exists for Texas groundwater outside of those created by GWCDs. As long as you are not deliberately or maliciously running somebody's well dry, biggest pump rules in Texas and whatever you can pump is yours unless limited by a GWCD.SunrayAg said:txags92 said:T Boone didn't buy any water rights. Water rights are not a thing for groundwater in Texas unless controlled by a groundwater conservation district. He pre-emptively started a groundwater conservation district on his ranch to keep anybody from preventing him from exporting the water from his wells. He had his ranch employees who lived on the ranch become the board of directors for the conservation district and vote to allow export of the water. He was banking on Rick Perry's super utility corridors (I forget what the official name was) to give him easy right of way to one of the major metro areas to sell the water. The cost of the pipeline would have been peanuts compared to what he could have sold it for.SunrayAg said:
About 20 years ago, T Boone Pickens bought up most of the water rights from the rough country in the eastern Panhandle, and was prepared to spend a billion dollars on a pipeline to pipe it to the San Antonio area. It has been well known for a long time that population growth in the Edwards Aquifer area is far outpacing recharge, even when not in a horrible drought like this year.
The panhandle water district made a deal with T Boone's group to keep the water up here... But you are not going to invest a billion in a pipeline unless you are making 2 billion on the water.
I guess what I'm saying is according to all the water guru's I know, farmers and ranchers in the Edwards aquifer area of Texas are F-ed. And as the population in the area grows they are just going to get more F-ed.
T Boone did buy water rights. About 200,000 acres worth to be exact. Then sold them to CRMWA for a huge profit when he encountered massive resistance to his pipeline idea.
It was only the biggest story in the Panhandle for about 5 years…
https://agrilife.org/texasaglaw/files/2018/01/Basics-of-Texas-Water-Law.pdf
And T Boones Mesa water group bought up 200,000 acres of water rights from neighboring properties.
https://www.amarillo.com/story/news/local/2011/06/24/group-buys-mesa-water-rights/13156706007/
https://www.waterworld.com/drinking-water/article/16206703/mesa-buys-water-rights-from-quixx-for-roberts-county-texas
https://www.lubbockonline.com/story/news/2019/09/12/remembering-water-race-between-t-boone-pickens-and-west-texas-cities/2984675007/
from the above article...
"Satterwhite said in the late 1990's to early 2000's, CRMWA purchased about 42,500 acres of water rights in Roberts County because they knew the water was plentiful, it was near Lake Meredith and there's little to no competing agriculture in the area. Satterwhite said Pickens wanted them to buy water under his land too, but his price was too high. Pickens feared CRMWA's pumping would deplete the water under his property, anyway.
Pickens had a new idea, and his water company, Mesa Water, began buying water rights from nearby properties with the hope of somehow building a water line from Roberts County to a big city, like Dallas. Texas Monthly wrote about this, saying Pickens believed if he didn't pump the water, someone else would."
Believe me, I totally get that. I was just responding to the guy talking about T Boone's water.Mas89 said:
I'm good. Just pointing out that there's more to the water problems than just ground water. Much more.
Buying access to pump water from somebody's land is not the same as buying a water right. A water right is when you buy the right to a specific quantity of water (usually measured in acre-feet). You can pump as much water as your want from your own well as long as there is not a GWCD controlling the water in your area. What TBoone was doing was buying the right to pump water from surrounding properties, and the local group bought those access rights to keep him from pumping it and sending it elsewhere. Once you own the right to pump water under a property, you can put as many wells as you want and can suck the neighbors properties dry, as long as you can prove you pumped it for a beneficial use and that you didn't draw their wells dry maliciously or intentionally. Like TBoone told Texas Monthly, he started buying the rights on the land around him because he feared that CRMWA or one of the other agencies would buy next door and suck his ranch dry. If you want to know all about TBoones plans and dreams about water, talk to Dr Kaiser about it. I believe he was consulting for TBoone for a while in the late 90s and early 2000s, including while my wife was one of his TAs.SunrayAg said:Sorry but you are incorrect.txags92 said:There is no such thing as water rights to groundwater in Texas unless conferred by a groundwater conservation district. So he didn't need to "buy" them because he already owned the land and had created his own district. There may have been massive resistance to the idea up there, but the only thing that stopped it was the pipeline was too expensive to build without either a pre-existing pipeline corridor to build through via the "Pickens plan" he was trying to get congress to build for his windmill power or through Perry's mega-corridors plan. When he couldn't get one of those approved, he sold the water locally instead. But he never "bought water rights" because no such thing exists for Texas groundwater outside of those created by GWCDs. As long as you are not deliberately or maliciously running somebody's well dry, biggest pump rules in Texas and whatever you can pump is yours unless limited by a GWCD.SunrayAg said:txags92 said:T Boone didn't buy any water rights. Water rights are not a thing for groundwater in Texas unless controlled by a groundwater conservation district. He pre-emptively started a groundwater conservation district on his ranch to keep anybody from preventing him from exporting the water from his wells. He had his ranch employees who lived on the ranch become the board of directors for the conservation district and vote to allow export of the water. He was banking on Rick Perry's super utility corridors (I forget what the official name was) to give him easy right of way to one of the major metro areas to sell the water. The cost of the pipeline would have been peanuts compared to what he could have sold it for.SunrayAg said:
About 20 years ago, T Boone Pickens bought up most of the water rights from the rough country in the eastern Panhandle, and was prepared to spend a billion dollars on a pipeline to pipe it to the San Antonio area. It has been well known for a long time that population growth in the Edwards Aquifer area is far outpacing recharge, even when not in a horrible drought like this year.
The panhandle water district made a deal with T Boone's group to keep the water up here... But you are not going to invest a billion in a pipeline unless you are making 2 billion on the water.
I guess what I'm saying is according to all the water guru's I know, farmers and ranchers in the Edwards aquifer area of Texas are F-ed. And as the population in the area grows they are just going to get more F-ed.
T Boone did buy water rights. About 200,000 acres worth to be exact. Then sold them to CRMWA for a huge profit when he encountered massive resistance to his pipeline idea.
It was only the biggest story in the Panhandle for about 5 years…
https://www.amarillo.com/story/news/local/2011/06/24/group-buys-mesa-water-rights/13156706007/
https://www.waterworld.com/drinking-water/article/16206703/mesa-buys-water-rights-from-quixx-for-roberts-county-texas
https://www.lubbockonline.com/story/news/2019/09/12/remembering-water-race-between-t-boone-pickens-and-west-texas-cities/2984675007/
from the above article...
"Satterwhite said in the late 1990's to early 2000's, CRMWA purchased about 42,500 acres of water rights in Roberts County because they knew the water was plentiful, it was near Lake Meredith and there's little to no competing agriculture in the area. Satterwhite said Pickens wanted them to buy water under his land too, but his price was too high. Pickens feared CRMWA's pumping would deplete the water under his property, anyway.
Pickens had a new idea, and his water company, Mesa Water, began buying water rights from nearby properties with the hope of somehow building a water line from Roberts County to a big city, like Dallas. Texas Monthly wrote about this, saying Pickens believed if he didn't pump the water, someone else would."
I have used Cedar Eaters on our property twice in the last four years. Your comment about the shavings/residual cedar mulch is off base a bit except in cases where the mulch is a foot deep. The ground retains water much better with the mulch, and new growth is abundant including many new Live Oak trees which spouted almost immediately. What I do not understand is why Texas Sumac grows out of cedar pile remains when there were never Texas Sumac around before. Can someone explain?Rattler12 said:The difference between the before and after pictures of a place riff with the "Cedar" and then cleared of it are pretty astounding. Some folks around here have had their places cleared mechanically by cedar choppers that devour the tree and spit out shavings. Only problem with that is the shavings cover the ground, don't break down for several years and still nothing grows to replace the trees. I cleared our small place of it by cutting and burning. Iwill say this about it though, from a woodworking standpoint it finishes very well and makes for a nice looking piece of work. I used to have a saw mill and milled a bunch of it.Hubert J. Farnsworth said:schmellba99 said:You neglected the single biggest factor - the simple fact that the central Texas ecosystem cannot handle the amount of people that live there long term without serious issues affecting natural resources, the primary one being water availability.Kenneth_2003 said:
1) Too many ranchitos with unregulated, if you can drill it you can pump it water wells.
2) Overgrazing in the 1800's by sheep/goat farmers led to widespread massive errosion.
2a) Overgrazing combined with elimination of fire leads to introduction to non-native species that are not drought tolerant and highly wasteful of groundwater.
My understanding that prior to 2 above much of the hill country that we recognize today as rocky hillsides and scrub oak and cedar (ash juniper) was grassland.
The lack of real management of cedar is also a big factor in lack of groundwater. Cedars use a massive amount of water annually, and before the greenies got a hold of everything, cedar was much better controlled. Even the Comanche used to have controlled burns of cedar that no longer happen now. Walk any creek in the Austin area and you'll be hard pressed to be able to walk 2 or 3 feet without having to go over and around cedars that are essentially weeds.
This is a great point. I heard about this guy that cleared and killed every bit of cedar on a pretty good size piece of property. Afterwards, springs started running in the creek that ran through the property. Those springs had not run in many years. I'd be all for some kind of cedar eradication program. Especially along Texas' rivers and creeks.
AggieBucksJB
Show some love for Jake Duer as he says good bye for now
in Billy Liucci's TexAgs Premium
45