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Karankawas were outdoors

5,359 Views | 36 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by TRADUCTOR
TarponChaser
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Interesting piece from Texas Highways: Karankawa Descendants Are Reviving The Heritage...

Analyzing the history and re-examining things like this vs. the accepted narrative we all most likely grew up learning in school is rather interesting. However, I do have to say I'm skeptical of how these folks can actually prove any sort of link based on oral tradition. Perhaps archaeological work can find DNA in their work and link it to them.

I'm not all that concerned with these attempts to reclaim land or claim it's still theirs because they were a conquered people and if they didn't want to lose their territory they should have been better at warfare.
Bradley.Kohr.II
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Ethnogenisis might be my new, most hated, word.

That article, more or less, reads like cosplay for being Indian.

I'm sure any "Old Texas" family has some Indian ancestry. And, may have some Karankawas.

For the fellows still holding on to family traditions, that's fine. I'm PA Dutch, and we have our own, but the "creating a new people" stuff is such utter bad bull.

(As, I think, is the bit about Indians using steel arrowheads. Seems doubtful.)
agz win
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Fascinating. Thanks for posting - brings back memories of the tales I heard as a kid.

I grew up around Carancahua Bay between Palacios and Port Lavaca and recall much of what was told about the fierce tribe. Great times exploring and fishing and crabbing in the area. Crancahua Pass that opened into Matagorda with Port O'Connor across the bay used to be a limited opening (like 40 yards)for small boat traffic and the bay was protected and pristine - miles of white sands with no humans or cars. I learned to ski here and had picnics with family and only accessed by boats. Sadly, erosion has taken a great toll and now when you Google satellite Carancahua Bay the sand barrier protecting it has mostly all eroded or sunken and disappeared - even Redfish Lake is no more although still labeled on Google map. I occasionally look to see if the one house on Schicke's Point, just yards now from the sea, has been destroyed as the Matagorda Bay waters further encroach and kill Carancahua Bay's protective outer banks.

Carancahua Bay - Wikipedia
B-1 83
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They're just trying to get recognized so they can open a casino or legally possess peyote.
Being in TexAgs jail changes a man……..no, not really
TarponChaser
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Bradley.Kohr.II said:

Ethnogenisis might be my new, most hated, word.

That article, more or less, reads like cosplay for being Indian.

I'm sure any "Old Texas" family has some Indian ancestry. And, may have some Karankawas.

For the fellows still holding on to family traditions, that's fine. I'm PA Dutch, and we have our own, but the "creating a new people" stuff is such utter bad bull.

(As, I think, is the bit about Indians using steel arrowheads. Seems doubtful.)

Agreed.

The part about the steel arrowheads, at least at first contact with Europeans seems really doubtful. They weren't mining iron and didn't have the forging technology. Perhaps they figured out how to repurpose Spanish armor at some point. Maybe.

I'm also skeptical of some of these activists claiming they're using Karankwa language.
Charismatic Megafauna
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It'd be interesting to see if 23andme could find anything in common between these folks' dna
powerbelly
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B-1 83 said:

They're just trying to get recognized so they can open a casino or legally possess peyote.
I would be doing the same.
two1993ags
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Now that brings back some memories-we rented Ms scheike's house for a few years for our duck lease at the very end of Barber Road. I still have the lease-doubt Ms Scheike is still with us.
Aggieangler93
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I enjoyed the article about lodge 307. Just wish I could spend more time down at POC listening to their ancestors while I am reeling fish in.
Class of '93 - proud Dad of a '22 grad and a '26 student!
TarponChaser
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agz win said:

Fascinating. Thanks for posting - brings back memories of the tales I heard as a kid.

I grew up around Carancahua Bay between Palacios and Port Lavaca and recall much of what was told about the fierce tribe. Great times exploring and fishing and crabbing in the area. Crancahua Pass that opened into Matagorda with Port O'Connor across the bay used to be a limited opening (like 40 yards)for small boat traffic and the bay was protected and pristine - miles of white sands with no humans or cars. I learned to ski here and had picnics with family and only accessed by boats. Sadly, erosion has taken a great toll and now when you Google satellite Carancahua Bay the sand barrier protecting it has mostly all eroded or sunken and disappeared - even Redfish Lake is no more although still labeled on Google map. I occasionally look to see if the one house on Schicke's Point, just yards now from the sea, has been destroyed as the Matagorda Bay waters further encroach and kill Carancahua Bay's protective outer banks.

Carancahua Bay - Wikipedia

Going back in time on Google Earth, it looks like as recently as 1990 Redfish Lake was still mostly cut off to the south with a small cut near the SE corner that was about 100 yards wide but now there's just an island on what was once the NE shore of the lake. Today that cut looks to be about 750 yards across.

What was the water clarity like back when you were growing up down there?

I wonder if there couldn't be some funds or grants for restoration like they've done on other parts of the coast by sinking geo-tubes and rebuilding the marsh.
Furlock Bones
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Charismatic Megafauna said:

It'd be interesting to see if 23andme could find anything in common between these folks' dna


Generally Indian tribes have been very anti-dna lineage research.
RCR06
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How do you pronounce karankawa?

Karen-kawa or ka-rank-awa heard both
DriftwoodAg
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RCR06 said:

How do you pronounce karankawa?

Karen-kawa or ka-rank-awa heard both
I've always heard ka-rawnk-awa
RCR06
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Dang it, heard that way too
carl spacklers hat
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Furlock Bones said:

Charismatic Megafauna said:

It'd be interesting to see if 23andme could find anything in common between these folks' dna


Generally Indian tribes have been very anti-dna lineage research.
Pre or post-Pocahontas getting her 1/1024th native American results back??
People think I'm an idiot or something, because all I do is cut lawns for a living.
Apache
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Interesting. I was perusing Wikipedia article yesterday about Juan Cortina (early Mexican bandit ala Pancho Villa) & came across this about the last Karakawas in Texas:

Quote:

In 1858, Cortina along with other rancheros attacked what was speculated to be the final surviving members of the Karankawa Indians, a Native American people whose homeland comprised the coastline of southern Texas, "when they were surprised at their hiding place in Texas and were exterminated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Cortina

Mr. Frodo
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If you believe the folks on Ancestry.com, I have some relation to the Talon family that was part of the misadventures of LaSalle and Ft. St. Louis. As a result I've read a few books about LaSalle that are very interesting ... The Wreck of the Belle the Ruin of LaSalle, The LaSalle Expedition to Texas and Wilderness Manhunt (the Spanish looking for the LaSalle colony).

The Karankawa basically watched LaSalle land/wreck and set up camp in 1684. That looney bird totally mismanaged relations with them. The Karankawa would scavenge stuff that washed ashore form all the scuttled ships and his crew considered it thievery. He would go to their camp and demand it be turned over at gunpoint ... that sort of thing. He even had the clever idea to strafe the camp with musket fire as he was leading most of the men on an attempt to find the MS river and go back to France for help. No big surprise the Karankawa made for Ft St Louis to extract some revenge on the women, children and few men left behind after that.

By all accounts the Karankawa were pretty big natives and apparently very athletic runners and swimmers. All of these books describe the different tribes encountered and they were consistently characterized this way.

Also, the cannibalism thing is a little overblown as mentioned in the article. I think most all natives at that time engaged in ceremonial eating of parts of defeated foes after battle.

Another interesting tidbit is that the Karankawa were most likely the group that helped revive Cabeza de Vaca and his crew when they washed up on Galveston island... they did not eat them. This was some time between 1527 and 1536 ... a full 150 years before LaSalle came ashore.

This early Texas history is pretty fascinating to me. Brandon Seale's New History of Old Texas podcasts tell some this early history and the Cabeza de Vaca story. This timeline always blows my mind as someone that foolishly thought Texas history sort of started with the Alamo.

Thanks for sharing the post.

------------------------------

1492 Columbus
1519 Cortez
1527 C-D-V Starts
1536 C-D-V Ends
1607 Jamestown
1619 SA discovered and named during Spanish Entrada
1620 Mayflower
1684 LaSalle
1689 Spanish find Remains of Ft St Louis
1690 Spanish destroy Remains of Ft St Louis find Talon children
and establish E Texas mission
1693 E Texas and other missions abandoned
1700 Mission San Juan Baptista established in Piedras Negras
1715 Proclamation to reestablish e Texas missions
1716 Proclamation to found mission in SA
1718 SA Mission Founded
1776 American Revolution
1803 LaPurchase
1808-1822 Mexico Independence from Spain
1812 War of 1812
1813 Battle of Medina
1823 SF Austin becomes Empresario in Tx
1836 Alamo - Cynthia Parker kidnapped
1846 Mexican American War
1861 Civil War

agz win
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TarponChaser said:

agz win said:

Fascinating. Thanks for posting - brings back memories of the tales I heard as a kid.

I grew up around Carancahua Bay between Palacios and Port Lavaca and recall much of what was told about the fierce tribe. Great times exploring and fishing and crabbing in the area. Crancahua Pass that opened into Matagorda with Port O'Connor across the bay used to be a limited opening (like 40 yards)for small boat traffic and the bay was protected and pristine - miles of white sands with no humans or cars. I learned to ski here and had picnics with family and only accessed by boats. Sadly, erosion has taken a great toll and now when you Google satellite Carancahua Bay the sand barrier protecting it has mostly all eroded or sunken and disappeared - even Redfish Lake is no more although still labeled on Google map. I occasionally look to see if the one house on Schicke's Point, just yards now from the sea, has been destroyed as the Matagorda Bay waters further encroach and kill Carancahua Bay's protective outer banks.

Carancahua Bay - Wikipedia

Going back in time on Google Earth, it looks like as recently as 1990 Redfish Lake was still mostly cut off to the south with a small cut near the SE corner that was about 100 yards wide but now there's just an island on what was once the NE shore of the lake. Today that cut looks to be about 750 yards across.

What was the water clarity like back when you were growing up down there?

I wonder if there couldn't be some funds or grants for restoration like they've done on other parts of the coast by sinking geo-tubes and rebuilding the marsh.

Water was clean and calm and could sometimes have clarity for a few feet down. Only a general north wind would disturb it since the barrier sand reef protected the southern winds from Matagorda. So pristine with very few humans interacting. And there was Redfish lake and Salt lake next to each other - both shallow with small openings from the north and wonderful fishing. Lots of fish life since protected waters there and plenty of dolphins around.

I see the island now you referenced and that was all part of the boundary of Redfish lake. Lots of land gone there and both sides of the Pass. Lots of wells around and lots of new dead flooding where saltwater is encroaching and taking further land on the edges of the bay.

Still, a beautiful area but sad the strength of Matagorda has changed the setting. I doubt they could fix and replace what's been lost.
Furlock Bones
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carl spacklers hat said:

Furlock Bones said:

Charismatic Megafauna said:

It'd be interesting to see if 23andme could find anything in common between these folks' dna


Generally Indian tribes have been very anti-dna lineage research.
Pre or post-Pocahontas getting her 1/1024th native American results back??


For various different reasons, the tribes don't want to show how mixed their dna is.
Comeby!
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My dads side of the family are Karankawa descendants. I haven't taken the time to study these roots like I have my moms sides Spanish roots. I need to do that, might explains some things for me.
carl spacklers hat
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No doubt. I was just making the jokes.
People think I'm an idiot or something, because all I do is cut lawns for a living.
Comeby!
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Quote:

"Sanchez says the Karankawa Kadla welcome those with an earnest heart who believe their families are descendants of the Karankawa people. The community rejects requirements to quantify their heritage, like DNA testing, because of the government's historical use of "blood quantum," which used tribal documents to measure the amount of "Indian blood" a person had in order to limit tribal citizenship."

https://www.texastribune.org/2021/10/04/karankawa-corpus-christi-texas-artifacts/

You would think so many generations down the line that the percentages of Indian blood would dillute down to undetectable levels. Theoretically, unless you lived on a reservation and only married or procreated with other natives, this would happen. Of course the risk of living and marrying only folks from a specific area would cross some genetic lines (to say it politely).
So if there's no quantitative measurement of 'indianess', that leaves it up to each individual to determine for themselves, how indian they are and as we've seen some claim lineage like that for personal benefit. I probably should study how this has worked out in Oklahoma. There's no doubt that native indians were taking advantage of by European settlers but like in many other racial and cultural disputes of today....where does it end?



Layne Staley
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I hope they don't revive the Cannibalism part
TarponChaser
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Comeby! said:

My dads side of the family are Karankawa descendants. I haven't taken the time to study these roots like I have my moms sides Spanish roots. I need to do that, might explains some things for me.

Not trying to be antagonistic here but, how do you know? Is it just oral tradition?

And, how would you study these roots when there's almost no documentation of Karankawas since most all historians, until recently, believed the tribe was exterminated before the Civil War?
powerbelly
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TarponChaser said:

Comeby! said:

My dads side of the family are Karankawa descendants. I haven't taken the time to study these roots like I have my moms sides Spanish roots. I need to do that, might explains some things for me.

Not trying to be antagonistic here but, how do you know? Is it just oral tradition?

And, how would you study these roots when there's almost no documentation of Karankawas since most all historians, until recently, believed the tribe was exterminated before the Civil War?
The same way millions of people claim to be part Apache or Comanche.
Apache
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Quote:

The same way millions of people claim to be part Apache

AggieOO
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B-1 83 said:

They're just trying to get recognized so they can open a casino or legally possess peyote.


Peyote is legal in Texas. Only state in the us.

But perhaps you were referring to being able to legally sell it.
Charlie Murphy
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TarponChaser said:

agz win said:

Fascinating. Thanks for posting - brings back memories of the tales I heard as a kid.

I grew up around Carancahua Bay between Palacios and Port Lavaca and recall much of what was told about the fierce tribe. Great times exploring and fishing and crabbing in the area. Crancahua Pass that opened into Matagorda with Port O'Connor across the bay used to be a limited opening (like 40 yards)for small boat traffic and the bay was protected and pristine - miles of white sands with no humans or cars. I learned to ski here and had picnics with family and only accessed by boats. Sadly, erosion has taken a great toll and now when you Google satellite Carancahua Bay the sand barrier protecting it has mostly all eroded or sunken and disappeared - even Redfish Lake is no more although still labeled on Google map. I occasionally look to see if the one house on Schicke's Point, just yards now from the sea, has been destroyed as the Matagorda Bay waters further encroach and kill Carancahua Bay's protective outer banks.

Carancahua Bay - Wikipedia

Going back in time on Google Earth, it looks like as recently as 1990 Redfish Lake was still mostly cut off to the south with a small cut near the SE corner that was about 100 yards wide but now there's just an island on what was once the NE shore of the lake. Today that cut looks to be about 750 yards across.

What was the water clarity like back when you were growing up down there?

I wonder if there couldn't be some funds or grants for restoration like they've done on other parts of the coast by sinking geo-tubes and rebuilding the marsh.
It seems like that whole East Matagorda bay complex east past Sargent has really eroded over the years. I've seen it down there just over the past 10 years.
B-1 83
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AggieOO said:

B-1 83 said:

They're just trying to get recognized so they can open a casino or legally possess peyote.


Peyote is legal in Texas. Only state in the us.

But perhaps you were referring to being able to legally sell it.
I thought it was only if you were a member of a recognized Indian tribe and were using it for "medicinal/religious" purposes. I learned something new today, I guess.
Being in TexAgs jail changes a man……..no, not really
Comeby!
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TarponChaser said:

Comeby! said:

My dads side of the family are Karankawa descendants. I haven't taken the time to study these roots like I have my moms sides Spanish roots. I need to do that, might explains some things for me.

Not trying to be antagonistic here but, how do you know? Is it just oral tradition?

And, how would you study these roots when there's almost no documentation of Karankawas since most all historians, until recently, believed the tribe was exterminated before the Civil War?


Pictures of ancestors in my grandparents house and my grandma telling me. Also, if you see the recent folks coming out saying they were Karankawa, they look like most of my dads side of the family. That being said, I have the same question but I have no intention of doing DNA testing. That's because I don't trust anyone with my data. If I could walk in a room, provide a sample, do the analysis and walk out with 100% of the sample and data, I'd consider doing it just to know. I do have my mom's side mapped out pretty extensively though, she did the DNA testing.
AggieOO
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You can only buy it from a "shaman" who is licensed, and there's only a few left in the state. I've watched way too much Hamiltons Pharmacopeia on vice. I can't stand that dude, but I find the show interesting.

It is illegal to harvest it yourself, as it is endangered.
duffelpud
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FIRST-HAND ACCOUNTS KARANKAWA APPEARANCE 1528-1698



1528
Alvar Nunez Cabeza De Vaca's Account

"The people we encountered there are tall and well formed"

"They have no other weapons than bow and arrows which they are most dexterous.

Their bows were said to be of similar height as them, so in the five foot plus range (see Austin, Smithwick, Jenkins). Their arrows were recorded as being three feet long, made out of reeds, and had three feathers that the Karankawa attached to the end. The arrow points were made out of "sharp stone, fish bones, or fish teeth." Although Cabeza de Vaca said that their only weapon was the bow and arrow, the Karankawa also made use of daggers made out of sharp rock or shell, clubs, and lances.

"The men pierce one of their nipples from side to side, and some both of them; through this hole they thrust a reed as long as 2 and spans (~18 inch) and as thick as two fingers.

"They also perforate their lower lip and insert a piece of cane in it as thin as half a finger.

"They used red ocher with which they rub and dye their faces and hair."

Red ocher was typically only obtainable through trade with Indians from the mainland. It is likely that it was considered a luxury item and would only be worn or put to use during funerals or other significant ceremonies.

"They are so badly bitten by mosquitoes that it seems as if they had the disease of Saint Lazarus (leprosy)."

"[The wear] tassels made of the hair of deer, which they dye red."

It can be assumed that they might have worn these tassels in their hair.


1685
Henri Joutel's Account

"The men were all naked; several had deer skins that they slung across their backs as gypsies do."

This skin that slung across their back would be cloak-like and made of buffalo or deer hide. When this encounter occurred it was during the winter and conditions were much colder than they are now (Little Ice Age). During the summer months, this cloak would not be worn and would be used likely as a blanket at night or as a covering on their huts.

"As they had no way to fasten the items on themselves which La Salle had given them [implying nakedness; no loincloths], we attached the gifts to their arms and neck [implying that they had bracelets and necklaces].

"We saw several women who were naked except for a skin that encircles them and covered them to the knees."

The skirt was also probably made from buffalo or deer skin.

"They had some markings on their faces and therefore were not very pretty."

These tattoos are a commonality in almost all descriptions of the Karankawa; however I have found little to no information in this time period on how these tattoos looked.


1687
Enriquez Barroto Account

"They went naked and with their bows and arrows."

"He persuaded two or three of the Indians and regaled them with [wheat] that they should come aboard. Seeing that they did not wish to, he ordered Juan Poule to take hold of one and make him do so, and the ensign and another together, but the three could not subdue him [the Karankawa], because all these Indians are of great stature and very robust of limb.


1698
Talon Brothers Account

"All these nations have the custom of going every morning at daybreak to throw themselves into the nearest river, almost never neglecting to do so, no matter what season, even when the water is frozen. In this case, they often make a hole in the ice and dive into it….then they wrap themselves in buffalo hides rubbed soft like chamois leather, which they use as robes, after which they walk about for some time."

This daily bathing ritual probably meant that the Karankawa were not nearly as dirty as some Europeans later suggested. It's also important to note the cold weather clothing employed by the Karankawa the buffalo hide robe/blanket.

"They all went naked like them and every morning at daybreak, in any season, they went to plunge into the nearest river."

"[The Karankawa] first tattooed them on the face, the hands, the arms, and in several other places on their bodies as they do on themselves, with several bizarre black marks, which they make with charcoal of walnut wood, crushed and soaked in water.

In this instance, the Karankawa had spared and adopted a number of children from a French fort they had ravaged. Because it is apparent the Karankawa adopted these children, the tattoos given to the children were likely the same they gave to their own. These tattoos covered the entire body, and every member of the band wore them. The "bizarre black marks" were significant enough that as one historian mentions, "[they] provoked curious stares from Europeans seeing them for the first time." Other historians have ventured to say, I think rightly so, that the tattoos were a means of conveying status, marital availability, and could act as a passport through the country-side.

"The Clamcoehs [Karankawa] wear mourning for their dead parents by smearing their body with a black substance made with charcoal of walnut wood soaked in water."

"One sees among these peoples only males [that are] well built and well formed, as well as those of the other sex, because, if it happens that a woman gives birth to a deformed child, she buries it alive as soon as it is born."

"All the savages, generally; are strong and robust and made for all sorts of hardship.


On Hair and Tattoos

In the sources ranging from this time period I have not come across any that mention of how the Karankawa wore their hair. As this is the case, I will give you a bit of information that later authors wrote. They say the Karankawas black hair was worn long, as far down as to their waist and that they cut the front so it did not obscure their vision. The men would also braid trinkets in their hair.

"His face has tattoos….with a black line that goes down the front to the end of his nose and another from the lower lip to the end of the chin, another small one next to each eye and, on each cheek a small black spot. Like the nose, the lips also are blackened, and the arms are painted with other markings.

I have not been able to find a detailed account of the Karankawas tattoos in this time period. This source isn't speaking about the Karankawa. It is about their neighbors, the Akokisa, but it should give you an idea of what these tattoos typically looked like.

"One, two, or three black lines are tattooed on their faces, beginning on the forehead and running across the nostrils down to the chin. The women's breasts are painted with numerous concentric circles around the nipples."

"What's this button do?"
O.G.
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AggieOO said:

B-1 83 said:

They're just trying to get recognized so they can open a casino or legally possess peyote.


Peyote is legal in Texas. Only state in the us.

But perhaps you were referring to being able to legally sell it.
Wait.....WHAT?!?!?
Jason C.
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Newcomb lumped them together with the Coahuiltecanos as the "Savages of the Western Gulf Culture Area" in his 1961 work The Indians of Texas: From Prehistoric to Modern Times. He states that his "chapters have been arranged in an ascending order of technological productivity." So Karankawas and Coahuiltecanos come first.
Old Sarge
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Layne Staley said:

I hope they don't revive the Cannibalism part


Best stock up on some glass beads and firewater to trade for your life.
"Green" is the new RED.
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