I'm looking for the best optic to kill pigs or defend against invaders coming across the lawn at or under $1,000.

This will be going on my 300 BLK sbr that I mostly use subsonic, suppressed.

Essentially I would assume the question boils down to either your Eotech/Aimpoint, etc. red dots or going with one of the budget Thermal/Nightvision Options (ATN Thor LT, Sightmark Wraith, etc.)

What are y'all's thoughts/experience with the budget night-time options?

And I know (as always in these guitar/truck/gun/whatever threads) people will say, "well if you're gonna' spend $1K you really should spend $2K and get ______". No - $1K is my cap, I don't varmint hunt enough to justify $2K on an optic. If you want to be that guy, well then just pretend my cap is $500 and you can tell me I might as well spend $1K...

Thanks in advance!

Disclaimer: If this was discussed on the board yesterday or last week or it's discussed every month on here you can crucify me for only using the OB when I need info, or for my lack of skill with searching the board - but it's not because I didn't look. I tried searching 3 different ways and I could not find the info that wasn't either outdated or irrelevant.

I know nothing about night opticsbut you left off LPVO as an option.

The wraith HD is the best for sub $1k nv optics. Do not buy anything ATN.

LPVO. 1-8 or 1-6.
Could probably find a used NX8, Vudu or Razor in that price range.

Get with EyeGuy on a PARD nv008

Ag_07 said:

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Get with EyeGuy on a PARD nv008

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Too much magnification for that setup. Field of view is small for the blackout sub

How far are your shots? Just my opinion but if you're trying to consistently brain stuff with subsonics at 75-100 yard deer feeder distance, Id want a minimum of 7x-9x.

highvelocity said:

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The wraith HD is the best for sub $1k nv optics. Do not buy anything ATN.

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With the 2x base magnification for sub 100yd distances

ETA: With the Wraith you get day and night options. If you settle on something like the Wraith that is around 500 bucks, and you don't want to just pocket the rest, a DNV monocular is always useful for night hunting and spotting. You'd still be under 1k.

all. damn. day

J_Daddy05 said:

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highvelocity said:

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The wraith HD is the best for sub $1k nv optics. Do not buy anything ATN.

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With the 2x base magnification for sub 100yd distances

ETA: With the Wraith you get day and night options. If you settle on something like the Wraith that is around 500 bucks, and you don't want to just pocket the rest, a DNV monocular is always useful for night hunting and spotting. You'd still be under 1k.

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And we think the HD ($500) is a better value than the 4K ($800)?

The ATN is garbage in every shape way and form. The $500 sightmark is better than ATNs $4000 thermal

Another vote for Sightmark. I know I've posted this video a few times times but it shows how well they are.

HD has the base 2x magnification, which for your application is more ideal IMO. I don't believe the Sightmark 4k does (3x - minor difference, but notable nonetheless).

I've never tried the 4k so take this with a grain of salt, there's supposedly a lot more bells and whistles on the 4k. You would probably have zero issues figuring working your way through them all, and no doubt the 4k probably has a crystal clear image, (I had an ATN at one point and the 4k picture was amazing.)

I had no budget constraints at the time, however for me personally the simplicity (based on reviews) and base magnification directed me to the Wraith HD. I didn't want any bells and whistles, just point and shoot after sighted in.

ETA - you also don't HAVE to use all the functions of the 4k of course - so if it falls within your budget and you're comfortable with the base mag. I wouldn't hesitate. Sightmarks are great night optics, I think you'll do well with either.

ETA #2: This was one of the videos that helped me pick between the two (HD v 4K). Good guys to watch for night optic reviews.

Buddy of mine has an ATN on his AR10. Purchased it on the rec of a LGS in College Station 6 months or so.

Was not impressed once I finally got a chance to shoot it.

Skelso loaned me a Wraith 4k. Very impressed with the quality of image on the 4K. Will definitely buy one from him. Here's the Wraith 4K on my 6.8 SPC w their supplemental picatinny battery pack.

highvelocity said:

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The ATN is garbage in every shape way and form. The $500 sightmark is better than ATNs $4000 thermal

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I agree, but he's probably talking about the Sightmark 4k.

i realized that after i sent it. leaving it there. atn deserves to be ridiculed relentlessly.

highvelocity said:

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The wraith HD is the best for sub $1k nv optics. Do not buy anything ATN.

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The pards kick the wraith's ass... but you don't know any better so it's ok.

the wraith will forever be my recommendation for an entry level NV optic.

highvelocity said:

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i realized that after i sent it. leaving it there. atn deserves to be ridiculed relentlessly.

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Fair enough

OP, is NV required? If so, Wraith or Pard is the way to go. If not, there are ton of low power variable optics that you'd be happier with for day use. In fact, it'd be a tight squeeze, but I might be able to put together an LPVO with a pard clipon for $1000....

highvelocity said:

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the wraith will forever be my recommendation for an entry level NV optic.

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Forever? Man, you might want to pick a different wording there...

TheEyeGuy said:

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highvelocity said:

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The wraith HD is the best for sub $1k nv optics. Do not buy anything ATN.

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The pards kick the wraith's ass... but you don't know any better so it's ok.

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Let's hear your sales pitch on this pard you speak of. The Wraith 4k Skelso loaned me was very impressive for the price point.

dr_boogs said:

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TheEyeGuy said:

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highvelocity said:

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The wraith HD is the best for sub $1k nv optics. Do not buy anything ATN.

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The pards kick the wraith's ass... but you don't know any better so it's ok.

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Let's hear your sales pitch on this pard you speak of. The Wraith 4k Skelso loaned me was very impressive for the price point.

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Cool, and I'll do a direct comparison with the wraith. I'll go over the good/bad about both.

Both are in the same price zone with the pard being $699 and the Wraith being $799. Both also have key features that can be added for $100-150 so realistically, similarly enough priced that I call it about a wash. Saving $100 doesn't mean much if it isn't as good or better, in my opinion. Which, again, I do like the Pard more.

The two big things pro pard is size and battery style. The Pard is about 1/2 the size of the wraith, which is very nice. Makes it a lot easier to handle the whole gun On top of that, I absolutely love that the Pard uses changeable 18650 batteries. Your picture illustrated it perfectly... on top of the cost of the wraith, the battery pack is another $120 bucks and has to be attached to something. It works but adds extra weight to the gun and you only get that one extra charge out of it. Not a huge deal if you have electricity at your lease, but if you are old school, it does make it a bit of a pain to make sure everything is charged. The 18650s are cheap and easy to swap out. For the price of one battery pack, you can have 10 18650s plus a power back charger. So, going out to hunt, you have a lot more battery time for the same dollars.

Kind of a "eh" thing is the range at night between the two units. The Pard is 200 meters where the Wraith is 300 yards. So 220 yards to 300 yards comparatively. Definitely sounds like a win for the wraith until you look at the units. The wraith has a BIG illuminator included as a separate part with it. Putting a similar unit on the gun with the Pard produces the same result whereas if you don't need 300 yards plus, then the included IR is built into the unit and very capable.

If you want to bump up a hair in price you can also get a Pard that has an included laser rangefinder. That thing is badass. The Wraith has a rangefinding function but it's.... just ok.

Weight is also in the Pard's corner at about half the weight.

The Pard does have a microphone where the Wraith does not (at least last I knew, if this has changed, let me know). Not a huge deal and the mic on the pard isn't great but it is there at least.

The negatives on the Pard... the Wraith does have a higher sensor output but it's not really that noticeable side by side. I think both units would benefit from a higher resolution display, which is the limiting factor on both.

The wraith also does start at lower magnification. This is either good or bad depending on what you are doing and how you are using it. For the most part, I don't like taking an NV unit out without having some sort of scanner unit.... which the Flir Scout TK does VERY cheaply for a thermal. Otherwise, you're constantly waving your gun around like a madman at night looking at things. It's cumbersome and not exactly the safest thing in the world to do that. That being said, if one can't afford to get a scanning unit (which has a lot of other benefits other than just spotting game) then the Wraith is better for scanning around than the pard but I like the pard a lot better for actually zeroing in on the target.

I am mixed on the mounting system on the Pard as it's set up for an AR, which for most that use these is fine but not ideal for a bolt action. The Wraith really is in the same boat here as it's just a big unit. A second "arm" for the mount that would work better with bolt guns would be greatly appreciated by the few that want to run them on a bolt gun. On top of that, I've sold something like 60-80 Pard NV units and thermals... the base has a screw that has broken twice when the customer mounted it. Now, I do not know if that was a bad quality screw or the customer over torqued it. Both times, however, we got new mounts in for the customer no charge from Rudolph.

Both units save pictures/video. I don't think, but I may be wrong on this, the Wraith streams video. The pard does but I never sell it on this function. The ATN units, for all the hate they get, are the best in that area. It's such a small demand feature that I pretty much don't worry about it, but if it is needed, the Pard will do it. I still put this in the negative as the app is a bit janky to make it work.

Thanks for the info on the pard optic. Appreciate all the detailed comparisons. Will def have to check one out. What model is the competitor to the 4K and which one comes w the rangefinder?

dr_boogs said:

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Thanks for the info on the pard optic. Appreciate all the detailed comparisons. Will def have to check one out. What model is the competitor to the 4K and which one comes w the rangefinder?

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NV008 is the standard unit
NV008 LRF is the laser range finding unit
NV007 is the clipon

If you are still in CS, get in touch with me and come check out the wraith in the field, at night. They all look good in a store, under lights.

I have HD and 4K in stock. I do a "ready to hunt" package on both that includes batteries, microSD card, etc.

The external pack I loaned Boogs just came out. You can hunt all night on a single charge and it recharges from USB so all you need is a car charger for your cell phone and you're set. It is not mandatory to use the scope, but I do recommend it for extended hunts.

Btw.... I have zero qualms with the Wraith. It was mainly ribbing on HV, but I do personally like the pard better. But like most things, it depends on what you are doing with the unit as to which will be better for you.

And I haven't jumped into this but kelso might be able to shed more light on it, the battery pack, you could theoretically use cell phone chargers, no? That's what I always recommended over buying ATN's pack.

Yes, I still like a scope ring w/ a round Anker rechargable pack. Sightmark just released these a month or so ago and I grabbed a handful to try them out. Like everything, I have likes and dislikes...

Ive been throwing them in w/ Wraith 4Ks if the buyer agrees to give me their honest feedback - good, bad, and ugly to help me decide if I'm going to stock them long term or not.

This is all great info, thanks for the feedback.

Thought I's had my little bit of prior research confirmed and was ready to move on the Wraith this afternoon - that was until I read TheEyeGuy's thorough review. I may have to look into Pard as well.

skelso, I'll shoot you an email tomorrow. Would be great to see it in action.

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For the most part, I don't like taking an NV unit out without having some sort of scanner unit.... which the Flir Scout TK does VERY cheaply for a thermal. Otherwise, you're constantly waving your gun around like a madman at night looking at things. It's cumbersome and not exactly the safest thing in the world to do that. That being said, if one can't afford to get a scanning unit (which has a lot of other benefits other than just spotting game) then the Wraith is better for scanning around than the pard but I like the pard a lot better for actually zeroing in on the target.

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100% agree you want a scanning unit in addition to your DNV scope. Getting a good thermal scanner is a game changer, however with a hardline of 1k budget you're not getting a DNV scope (Wraith or Pard) AND a thermal scanner (even a scout). Close, but not under.

Might seem redundant but he could squeeze the right DNV scope and DNV spotter into a 1k budget, even though thermal scanner>>>>>>>>>>>>>DNV scanner, (even that's an understatement) it still might be worth it if he can squeeze it into his budget just for ease of use. Alternatively if he's shooting from a fixed point off of somewhere he can scan easily with his rifle (like his back porch popping pigs in the lawn), the spotter/scanner becomes less important.

Also just personal experience, I was not that impressed with the Flir Scout, I bought mine from Amazon, took it out once and couldn't see crap at 75-100yds. Defective unit? Too high of expectations? Maybe, but I sent it back. Have since upgraded to another unit unfortunately a little out of OPs current budget.

J_Daddy05 said:

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For the most part, I don't like taking an NV unit out without having some sort of scanner unit.... which the Flir Scout TK does VERY cheaply for a thermal. Otherwise, you're constantly waving your gun around like a madman at night looking at things. It's cumbersome and not exactly the safest thing in the world to do that. That being said, if one can't afford to get a scanning unit (which has a lot of other benefits other than just spotting game) then the Wraith is better for scanning around than the pard but I like the pard a lot better for actually zeroing in on the target.

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100% agree you want a scanning unit in addition to your DNV scope. Getting a good thermal scanner is a game changer, however with a hardline of 1k budget you're not getting a DNV scope (Wraith or Pard) AND a thermal scanner (even a scout). Close, but not under.

Might seem redundant but he could squeeze the right DNV scope and DNV spotter into a 1k budget, even though thermal scanner>>>>>>>>>>>>>DNV scanner, (even that's an understatement) it still might be worth it if he can squeeze it into his budget just for ease of use. Alternatively if he's shooting from a fixed point off of somewhere he can scan easily with his rifle (like his back porch popping pigs in the lawn), the spotter/scanner becomes less important.

Also just personal experience, I was not that impressed with the Flir Scout, I bought mine from Amazon, took it out once and couldn't see crap at 75-100yds. Defective unit? Too high of expectations? Maybe, but I sent it back. Have since upgraded to another unit unfortunately a little out of OPs current budget.

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I've sold 40-50 of the Scout TKs, at least. Most have been very happy with them but they are also the most entry level of anything that I'm willing to sell. You absolutely do get what you pay for, but for $600, I think it outkicks the coverage. A lot of the time, I'm running into a budget issue... The customer came in wanting a do-all for $1000 and there's just nothing that absolutely does everything for that price. Any of the digital units are going to be somewhere between serviceable and good, but the thing is still stuck on the rifle. You're going to give a little bit somewhere. Bumping the budget up to about $1200 does put the customer into a handheld unit and a weapon mounted unit. Definitely not the same as the $1500-2000 Flir Scouts but it is definitely useable. Heck, I have a couple up at the ranch that I use as loaners. I also have a 10 year old thermal that outperforms them, but it cost $3500 at the time. For the most part, using the TK, the expectation isn't that you'll see pigs... but you'll see white dots. With a little practice, it's usually pretty easy to see the difference between a deer and a pig... even at around 150 yards but it's not because the image is clear enough but rather that there is a difference to how pigs and deer move so if you watch a bit, it's usually a pretty good educated guess on what is being looked at. If it warrants extra looking, then pulling up the weapon mounted DVN to do a final ID and possibly shot is there. But, I will agree, the TK is not just like absolutely amazing or anything... it's the absolute entry level. Thing is, I haven't found anything in three years that really does compete with it at the price point so I've stuck with them.

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Bumping the budget up to about $1200 does put the customer into a handheld unit and a weapon mounted unit.

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And I know (as always in these guitar/truck/gun/whatever threads) people will say, "well if you're gonna' spend $1K you really should spend $2K and get ______". No - $1K is my cap, I don't varmint hunt enough to justify $2K on an optic. If you want to be that guy, well then just pretend my cap is $500 and you can tell me I might as well spend $1K...

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Just sayin.

J_Daddy05 said:

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Quote:

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Bumping the budget up to about $1200 does put the customer into a handheld unit and a weapon mounted unit.

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Quote:

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And I know (as always in these guitar/truck/gun/whatever threads) people will say, "well if you're gonna' spend $1K you really should spend $2K and get ______". No - $1K is my cap, I don't varmint hunt enough to justify $2K on an optic. If you want to be that guy, well then just pretend my cap is $500 and you can tell me I might as well spend $1K...

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Just sayin.

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I was talking generalities... Not directed at the OP.