DEN sucks, in my experience. Flying United, feels like you walk about a half a mile to the TSA x-ray room. They don't let you inside, make you unlock it outside the door and then inspect it inside their room. They took probably 30 minutes with only one other person ahead of me. Had to walk all the way back with a TSA agent and then we loaded it outside at the curbside check in, not inside... it was a giant cluster-f. Consequently, my shotgun ended up missing my flight and was loaded on the flight behind it. Luckily it was only 45 mins behind ours. Total PITA.

IAH I have never had to spend more than 10 mins with TSA and it's always flying out of C where the checkpoint is right in the middle. They seem to be pretty good and consistent with their inspections.

Ok another question.

Previous goals stated as being personal protection and home security with possible usage for bear as well.

My selections a my primary carry gun that I'm extremely comfortable with shooting defensively, comfortable carrying and have a decent holster for. It's a 5" 1911 in .45.

Second option Glock 17 that I have a crappy holster for. Almost never carry this but it has high capacity for what it's worth. If you're not familiar with Glock it's a 9mm.

Third is a Smith model 19 .357 4" I absolutely never carry hardly at all though I do have a good holster for it.

Thoughts on what my choice should be?

Carry the 1911. I didn't take my pistol with me to Kodiak (We all had bear spray and shotguns) but was recommended by a number of folks that a .45 with Buffalo Bore (I think that was the brand) ammo was sufficient. Apparently it's common in Alaska but I don't really know.

You could also make this an excuse to go buy a 10mm

Earlier this month I was blasted for suggesting the use of TSA locks on firearms cases that are checked as baggage on airlines. I've always done that, but read the comments and decided to learn from it. I've been curious since then since we had some people saying that they are actually illegal.

I had a chance to check that out this past week as I flew my grandkids who have been visiting me here in Cody back to their home in Indianapolis. Both airports were at just a fraction of normal air travel, so on both ends of the round trip it was easy to find TSA agents standing around looking bored. I asked them.

The agent in Cody confirmed they were optional, but would avoid the hassle of being called by security and if time was short, being caused to miss a flight. The airport in Cody is so small he acknowledged that was not a high probability. He said that they pretty much open every handgun case and just last week found a Glock that had its magazine removed, but with a live round in the chamber. I don't know what pretty much means and didn't ask.

I spoke with two agents in Indianapolis.They both told me that TSA locks are optional. One of them advised not using them, the other didn't comment on that. They said they only open cases when the X-Ray isn't certain. They said that they will not call the passenger's phone, but make an announcement over the PA system and sometimes (for me) those aren't easy to hear especially if I happen to be in a rest room or a noisy area.

So overall I think I will not use TSA locks in the future. But all three agents scoffed at the idea that they are illegal because they violate the rule that you must not give anyone else your key. I heard BS called by one of them, and the TSA website confirms that they can be used:

https://www.tsa.gov/travel/transporting-firearms-and-ammunition#:~:text=You%20may%20use%20any%20brand,be%20transported%20in%20checked%20baggage.

I don't want to start a debate, just thought this information might be useful.

Got a TSA approved lock box with a built in lock.

The ammo box can just go in your bag. I use that same lock box. I got the key version after I dropped the combo version and it broke (open).

McInnis said:

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Earlier this month I was blasted for suggesting the use of TSA locks on firearms cases that are checked as baggage on airlines. I've always done that, but read the comments and decided to learn from it. I've been curious since then since we had some people saying that they are actually illegal.

I had a chance to check that out this past week as I flew my grandkids who have been visiting me here in Cody back to their home in Indianapolis. Both airports were at just a fraction of normal air travel, so on both ends of the round trip it was easy to find TSA agents standing around looking bored. I asked them.

The agent in Cody confirmed they were optional, but would avoid the hassle of being called by security and if time was short, being caused to miss a flight. The airport in Cody is so small he acknowledged that was not a high probability. He said that they pretty much open every handgun case and just last week found a Glock that had its magazine removed, but with a live round in the chamber. I don't know what pretty much means and didn't ask.

I spoke with two agents in Indianapolis.They both told me that TSA locks are optional. One of them advised not using them, the other didn't comment on that. They said they only open cases when the X-Ray isn't certain. They said that they will not call the passenger's phone, but make an announcement over the PA system and sometimes (for me) those aren't easy to hear especially if I happen to be in a rest room or a noisy area.

So overall I think I will not use TSA locks in the future. But all three agents scoffed at the idea that they are illegal because they violate the rule that you must not give anyone else your key. I heard BS called by one of them, and the TSA website confirms that they can be used:

https://www.tsa.gov/travel/transporting-firearms-and-ammunition#:~:text=You%20may%20use%20any%20brand,be%20transported%20in%20checked%20baggage.

I don't want to start a debate, just thought this information might be useful.

---

I went through about the same thing. Simply put the TSA agent and website are wrong. I was hoping the would change the website after my experience. Ha wishful thinking.

The regulation is 49 CFR 1540.111(c)(2).

Best part is TSA added that garbage language to their website in July 2018. Prior to that, the "including TSA-recognized locks" phrase wasn't part of the statement.

txyaloo said:

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Best part is TSA added that garbage language to their website in July 2018. Prior to that, the "including TSA-recognized locks" phrase wasn't part of the statement.

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Yep, and using a TSA lock doesn't even make sense if they truly want to maintain a secured area. Any joe blow baggage handler with a 3D printed TSA key can open it and boom... you now have a fully loaded firearm possessed by a non-LEO in the secure area of an airport. Hell, you don't even need a key, those locks are flimsy as hell.

The theory of non-TSA locks is that everyone validates it's safe for transport, then it's Next to impossible To stealthily open until it reaches the final destination. No idea why TSA updated their website.

Quote:

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it was easy to find TSA agents standing around looking bored. I asked them.

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I appreciate your search for information.

But asking TSA agents for legal advice is like asking cows to explain photosynthesis.

average_joker said:

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The ammo box can just go in your bag. I use that same lock box. I got the key version after I dropped the combo version and it broke (open).

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yep this is a little barrel key version.

CanyonAg77 said:

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Quote:

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it was easy to find TSA agents standing around looking bored. I asked them.

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I appreciate your search for information.

But asking TSA agents for legal advice is like asking cows to explain photosynthesis.

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Not to dispute your funny analogy, but wouldn't it be just a little closer to asking a cop a question relating to traffic laws?

Congress writes laws and then delegates federal agencies like the TSA to enforce them. Would they not be the final arbiter on this? Unless a court has found that their interpretation is wrong, how could a person possibly get in trouble for following their authority? Does anyone know of this happening?

Has the TSA designed a grand conspiracy to mislead the public based on their website and training they give their agents to entrap innocent law-abiding gun owners?

It's just like asking a cop about the law.

Some know it, some don't. Some know the law from 10 years ago, but don't know recent updates.

There's no conspiracy, just a bunch of humans that get some training, then get pushed out into the world. Some good, some bad, some complete ignoramuses.

Quote:

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Would they not be the final arbiter on this?

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No. The courts are. Now, that day, as you're trying to get onto your flight, they might have the final say. So you should know the law, and print out the rules to take with you.

That's giving too much credit to TSA agents. Cops go through a WHOLE lot more training and education and work on the daily with law. TSA agents are initially trained on the rules then they learn a specific role (like metal detection or luggage screening) and that's pretty well all they do until they get put in another role.

A cop would at least know how the rule is enforced. A TSA agent at the security/metal detector area probably knows nothing about the baggage screening process.

CTGilley said:

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McInnis said:

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Earlier this month I was blasted for suggesting the use of TSA locks on firearms cases that are checked as baggage on airlines. I've always done that, but read the comments and decided to learn from it. I've been curious since then since we had some people saying that they are actually illegal.

I had a chance to check that out this past week as I flew my grandkids who have been visiting me here in Cody back to their home in Indianapolis. Both airports were at just a fraction of normal air travel, so on both ends of the round trip it was easy to find TSA agents standing around looking bored. I asked them.

The agent in Cody confirmed they were optional, but would avoid the hassle of being called by security and if time was short, being caused to miss a flight. The airport in Cody is so small he acknowledged that was not a high probability. He said that they pretty much open every handgun case and just last week found a Glock that had its magazine removed, but with a live round in the chamber. I don't know what pretty much means and didn't ask.

I spoke with two agents in Indianapolis.They both told me that TSA locks are optional. One of them advised not using them, the other didn't comment on that. They said they only open cases when the X-Ray isn't certain. They said that they will not call the passenger's phone, but make an announcement over the PA system and sometimes (for me) those aren't easy to hear especially if I happen to be in a rest room or a noisy area.

So overall I think I will not use TSA locks in the future. But all three agents scoffed at the idea that they are illegal because they violate the rule that you must not give anyone else your key. I heard BS called by one of them, and the TSA website confirms that they can be used:

https://www.tsa.gov/travel/transporting-firearms-and-ammunition#:~:text=You%20may%20use%20any%20brand,be%20transported%20in%20checked%20baggage.

I don't want to start a debate, just thought this information might be useful.

---

I went through about the same thing. Simply put the TSA agent and website are wrong. I was hoping the would change the website after my experience. Ha wishful thinking.

The regulation is 49 CFR 1540.111(c)(2).

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How is this still even a question?

Here is the language in the CFR cited.

"(i) The passenger declares to the aircraft operator, either orally or in writing, before checking the baggage, that the passenger has a firearm in his or her bag and that it is unloaded;
(ii) The firearm is unloaded;
(iii) The firearm is carried in a hard-sided container; and
(iv) The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the passenger retains the key or combination."

Therefore by definition a TSA lock does not comply with this portion of the law.

Don't ask cops or agents (especially TSA and ATF) for legal advice; consult an attorney or at least read it yourself.

CanyonAg77 said:

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It's just like asking a cop about the law.

Some know it, some don't. Some know the law from 10 years ago, but don't know recent updates.

There's no conspiracy, just a bunch of humans that get some training, then get pushed out into the world. Some good, some bad, some complete ignoramuses.

Quote:

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Would they not be the final arbiter on this?

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No. The courts are. Now, that day, as you're trying to get onto your flight, they might have the final say. So you should know the law, and print out the rules to take with you.

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You didn't copy my entire quote did you? I said:

Quote:

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Congress writes laws and then delegates federal agencies like the TSA to enforce them. Would they not be the final arbiter on this? Unless a court has found that their interpretation is wrong, how could a person possibly get in trouble for following their authority? Does anyone know of this happening?

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So can you tell me where a court has struck down the TSA's rule which allows TSA locks? I would really like to know if a court has ruled that using a lock that has a master key is the same thing as a person not retaining sole possession of his key's lock.

I suspect we all agree Federal agencies can create law. That's administrative law which has a formal process which must be followed. If the TSA is going to create rules about how they plan to enforce 49 CFR 1540.1111(c)(2), they have to follow the rulemaking process that requires public notice, a comment period, possibly hearings, etc. They haven't done that. All they've done is update their website 2 years ago to say TSA keys are allowed.

That's not administrative law, and that statement doesn't have the power of law either. Are you likely to get in trouble by TSA for using a TSA key? No. It makes their job easier. Are you likely to get in trouble by a federal investigator? No, they have bigger fish to fry. Is it stupid to use TSA locks on a gun case? Absolutely. As others have said, you're giving every idiot in the airport easy access to a gun in what's supposed to be a secure/sterile environment.

I don't know why you want to argue every jot and tittle.

The courts are the final arbiter of these rules.

However, the TSA agents on duty the day you fly, are the final arbiter of what happens that day.

They may be brilliant, they may be ignorant, but you're not getting past them unless you know the law and are lucky enough to find a supervisor who can be persuaded.

Back to the original discussion, there are tons of examples of theft from baggage by baggage handlers and TSA agents. You can never control what happens once the bag leaves your possession. The best you can do is make it as secure as the law allows.

The law allows you (and I say, it compels you) to use a unique lock and to maintain control of the key.

That would be my policy.

txyaloo said:

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Is it stupid to use TSA locks on a gun case? Absolutely. As others have said, you're giving every idiot in the airport easy access to a gun in what's supposed to be a secure/sterile environment.

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Sums it up for me. Accepting the premise that either is "allowed" (one by actual regulation and one by a website and a bunch of "well this TSA said it was okay", but anyway...)....

One is a responsible way to secure a firearm out of your control, and the other lets any TSA baggage handler (a group known to steal from luggage) have access to your gun.

Even if both solutions are allowed, one is responsible and one is careless. IMO.

CanyonAg77 said:

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I don't know why you want to argue every jot and tittle.

The courts are the final arbiter of these rules.

However, the TSA agents on duty the day you fly, are the final arbiter of what happens that day.

They may be brilliant, they may be ignorant, but you're not getting past them unless you know the law and are lucky enough to find a supervisor who can be persuaded.

Back to the original discussion, there are tons of examples of theft from baggage by baggage handlers and TSA agents. You can never control what happens once the bag leaves your possession. The best you can do is make it as secure as the law allows.

The law allows you (and I say, it compels you) to use a unique lock and to maintain control of the key.

That would be my policy.

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Look, I am not arguing for the use of TSA locks. I've already said that I won't use them again and I've said that one TSA agent in Indianapolis recommended against them. I am simply responding to people who stated earlier in this thread that YOU CANNOT USE TSA LOCKS as if that would put them in legal jeopardy. I have only pointed out that is not true.

As far as the requirement to use a unique lock, that is not what the law says.

McInnis said:

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As far as the requirement to use a unique lock, that is not what the law says.

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Quote:

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only the passenger retains the key or combination."

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Sounds unique to me.


And sorry for missing that you are now not going to use TSA locks. You were advocating for them hard, and you still seem to think they are acceptable, so it's easy to miss your change.

Quote:

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I am simply responding to people who stated earlier in this thread that YOU CANNOT USE TSA LOCKS as if that would put them in legal jeopardy. I have only pointed out that is not true.

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txyaloo posted the actual regulation. I would call it true, as opposed to what some admin assistant put on the web site.

This is what I posted on July 7th:

Quote:

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Well I sure learned something today. I was giving advice based on my experience and what the TSA advises, or at least used to. What else can I say? I sure won't use them again.

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I wouldn't say I was advocating for them hard. Just pointing out that they are allowed. And as the TSA agents I spoke with said, there are some advantages. I could see the TSA calling your name while you were riding a tram to your gate, missing the call, and not being allowed to board. If you travel with a gun, you need to allow extra time for that contingency. I hope we can all agree on that.

I have not defended the TSA. I don't know if their interpretation of the law is correct. The rule they wrote does seem ambiguous. The last time I asked a TSA agent for a clarification on a regulation before this was quite an adventure. About ten years ago during the great primer shortage I took a business trip to Houston. I thought I might be able to buy some primers there and bring them home. I asked a TSA agent who told me that we should go an ask the question to their "ordinance expert". That turned out to be a woman who did not know what a primer was. True story.

McInnis said:

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This is what I posted on July 7th:

Quote:

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Well I sure learned something today. I was giving advice based on my experience and what the TSA advises, or at least used to. What else can I say? I sure won't use them again.

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I asked a TSA agent who told me that we should go an ask the question to their "ordinance expert". That turned out to be a woman who did not know what a primer was. True story.

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Glad you learned something and are now using a better practice. This last tidbit also again highlights...

Quote:

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Don't ask cops or agents (especially TSA and ATF) for legal advice; consult an attorney or at least read it yourself.

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In reality though if you are in an airport and trying to get through and on your flight, are you going to go into a lengthy legal debate with TSA if they want to argue about it? Is taking an hour and potentially missing a flight worth standing up for your interpretation of a line of the law out of principle?

The Milkman said:

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In reality though if you are in an airport and trying to get through and on your flight, are you going to go into a lengthy legal debate with TSA if they want to argue about it? Is taking an hour and potentially missing a flight worth standing up for your interpretation of a line of the law out of principle?

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The answer is yes I will because even their website says a unique lock is good to go. So it should not be a long argument, and if it is, I am not entrusting them with my firearm. Hard stop.

The Milkman said:

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In reality though if you are in an airport and trying to get through and on your flight, are you going to go into a lengthy legal debate with TSA if they want to argue about it? Is taking an hour and potentially missing a flight worth standing up for your interpretation of a line of the law out of principle?

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The law, not so much.

The security of my firearm?

Yes.

The Milkman said:

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In reality though if you are in an airport and trying to get through and on your flight, are you going to go into a lengthy legal debate with TSA if they want to argue about it? Is taking an hour and potentially missing a flight worth standing up for your interpretation of a line of the law out of principle?

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Been there did that. I would not give them the key or let them open without me present.

Thats a good question. You've paid for a guided hunt out of state. So let's say you've spent $4000 in guides fees, licenses, tags, plane tickets. You then get to the airport and TSA is hassling you about needing to inspect your gun without you present. Supervisors have already been talked to. You've showed them TSA regulations. Called TSA headquarters in DC. Nothing is changing the airport TSA's mind. What do you do? I'd want to be present, but thats a lot of money to lose on a hunting trip.

Or you just let them do what they need to do, check to make sure your gun is still there, and go on your way...

Quote:

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Glad you learned something and are now using a better practice. This last tidbit also again highlights...

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Yeah, who would have thought that someone on Texags could process new information and change their mind?

But I have confirmed beyond any reasonable doubt that they are not prohibited by the agency that is in charge of enforcing the law. That's just a fact.

RCR06 said:

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Thats a good question. You've paid for a guided hunt out of state. So let's say you've spent $4000 in guides fees, licenses, tags, plane tickets. You then get to the airport and TSA is hassling you about needing to inspect your gun without you present. Supervisors have already been talked to. You've showed them TSA regulations. Called TSA headquarters in DC. Nothing is changing the airport TSA's mind. What do you do? I'd want to be present, but thats a lot of money to lose on a hunting trip.

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Not a guided hunt. A Clay shoot in KS. It was on my return flight. They had remolded the airport and started inspecting guns in a "Secure Area." It was early and the supervisor did not know. She tried to get snooty and say I must not be use to "Big Airports." (I did not know KS was big compared to DFW, Houston, Austin, Atlanta, Orlando,and Pitt.) For reference it is not much bigger than LBK. They just said that is how we do it here. They tried to give me the number of the regional person. I made them call the person. She told them to inspect my case in a different area and gave me a number to someone in DC.

I ended up making my flight only because it was delayed and I was there very early since I was flying with a firearm.

When I got home I called and left a message with the person in DC. They called me back and said, I had correctly interpreted the law. In fact they made me sign a card when i declared my firearm that clearly stated the law. Claimed they would be looking into the KS situation. I am sure it did not go any further and I have not been back to KS.

This was all do to an oversight by the local TSA when remolding the airport.


About calling on the intercom. When I fly, I wait out front until they tell me my bag or case has cleared TSA. It rarely takes more than a few minutes.

McInnis said:

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Quote:

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Glad you learned something and are now using a better practice. This last tidbit also again highlights...

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Yeah, who would have thought that someone on Texags could process new information and change their mind?

But I have confirmed beyond any reasonable doubt that they are not prohibited by the agency that is in charge of enforcing the law. That's just a fact.

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Again....you confirmed with a couple of gate flunkies. Good for you. The bolded above isn't true.

And that is just from an observer who has been following this thread. For somebody that claims to have learned from this, and who claims to not be advocating for TSA locks, you sure seem to want to beat this dead horse.

Pro tip: Never travel by plane if you have to get there today. Planes break, weather changes, stuff happens.

The Milkman said:

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Or you just let them do what they need to do, check to make sure your gun is still there, and go on your way...

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Agreed, a lot of people talking about no way they let tsa inspect their gun without them present. Just setting up a scenario to see how strong people would hold to that

mpl35 said:

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McInnis said:

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Quote:

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Glad you learned something and are now using a better practice. This last tidbit also again highlights...

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Yeah, who would have thought that someone on Texags could process new information and change their mind?

But I have confirmed beyond any reasonable doubt that they are not prohibited by the agency that is in charge of enforcing the law. That's just a fact.

---

Again....you confirmed with a couple of gate flunkies. Good for you. The bolded above isn't true.

And that is just from an observer who has been following this thread. For somebody that claims to have learned from this, and who claims to not be advocating for TSA locks, you sure seem to want to beat this dead horse.

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No, I provided a link to the TSA website. It wasn't just a couple of gate flunkies. It's very clear, I don't care what kind of lock you use, I'm just trying to provide accurate information for the OP. If you want to argue about this further, take it up with the TSA.

Here's the link, again.


https://www.tsa.gov/travel/transporting-firearms-and-ammunition