BenderRodriguez said:

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1990AG said:

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I'd have lost BIG $$ betting that Bender would have already gotten in on this one...

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I saw the thread last night, but I'd just gotten home from a match where I was trying to help people run the scoring for the first time, in between shooting and trying to get pictures of other people shooting. I was tired.

I've got a toddler and a pregnant wife at home. I'm still tired.

OP, you're on the right course by taking an intro class sunday. Learn what you can there and come back if you have specific questions afterwards.

And don't buy a Judge.

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Congrats on the pending baby! One of the coolest parts of Texags is having guys that are experts in many different areas! We joke about/with you, but you're the go to guy in pistols.

Edit...even though you gave me a rash of SHYTE for buying the Sars.....

techno-ag said:

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For beginners, a 38 revolver is hard to beat. Always goes bang. Recoil is manageable.

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They don't always go bang. And when they don't, you're usually completely out of it. I only seriously shot revolvers for a year, and had multiple times they didnt go bang (new and old guns, all factory ammo). If you think revolvers are infallible, you need to shoot them more.

Recoil is manageable. In a 4" K frame. Less so in an airweight J frame, so blanket "revolvers are easy on recoil" is half accurate.

BenderRodriguez said:

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techno-ag said:

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For beginners, a 38 revolver is hard to beat. Always goes bang. Recoil is manageable.

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They don't always go bang. And when they don't, you're usually completely out of it. I only seriously shot revolvers for a year, and had multiple times they didnt go bang (new and old guns, all factory ammo). If you think revolvers are infallible, you need to shoot them more.

Recoil is manageable. In a 4" K frame. Less so in an airweight J frame, so blanket "revolvers are easy on recoil" is half accurate.

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We've had this discussion before and i stand by it. Good people can disagree. But i will always say that a beginner will have fewer difficulties with a revolver than anything else.

techno-ag said:

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BenderRodriguez said:

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techno-ag said:

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For beginners, a 38 revolver is hard to beat. Always goes bang. Recoil is manageable.

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They don't always go bang. And when they don't, you're usually completely out of it. I only seriously shot revolvers for a year, and had multiple times they didnt go bang (new and old guns, all factory ammo). If you think revolvers are infallible, you need to shoot them more.

Recoil is manageable. In a 4" K frame. Less so in an airweight J frame, so blanket "revolvers are easy on recoil" is half accurate.

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We've had this discussion before and i stand by it. Good people can disagree. But i will always say that a beginner will have fewer difficulties with a revolver than anything else.

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No one sees more complete noobs to guns than law enforcement and the Army. And they all moved on to semi autos.

I do think revolvers are still relevant but not for the reasons you state. In my opinion it has more to do with NPE use or administrative manipulations. As for function, I agree with bender. It only takes about 50 rounds to seriously gum up a revolver and require a brushing to keep it working and god help you if you bend the crane.

ETA: pick a good revolver if you must. Hint it's not a judge. .410 sucks against people out of a short barrel

To rehash again cause there aint much to talk about,

I am a big fan of revolvers. I carry one and so does my wife. We also keep one loaded in our safe.

I dont shoot a lot but have in my life shot a ton. I have five handguns that get used, three revolvers, a Glock 19, and a Kahr K40. I wouldnt consider any of them more reliable than any other. I cannot remember the last time I had a malfunction out of any of them.

But I do agree that revolvers are easier to handle, and I do not agree that 'with a little training' semi autos are easier for everyone. There is a significant number of people that will never handle a semi auto like they handle a revolver for both physical but more often mental hangups. Everyone is just not as trainable as we want them to be.

My wife is a perfect example of this. She has shot thousands of rounds out of probably two dozen different handguns and is a very good shot with several different deer rifles, both off handed and from a rest. She carries a J frame and also has a Model 10 next to my Glock in the safe. Why? Because that's where her comfort level is. And she is really good with both of them. But every time she shoots my Glock she has to think. She doesnt want to think in that situation, just shoot.

Revolvers do just go bang. Semi autos do not. You have to remember to chamber it and work a safety(on some). And if you have a misfire you have to clear it where a revolver you just squeeze the trigger again.

agsalaska said:

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But I do agree that revolvers are easier to handle, and I do not agree that 'with a little training' semi autos are easier for everyone. There is a significant number of people that will never handle a semi auto like they handle a revolver for both physical but more often mental hangups. Everyone is just not as trainable as we want them to be.

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I think this is a sample size issue. I'm not doubting yalls anecdotal experiences with new shooters, and would like to point out once again (as several of us did in this or another thread recently) that teaching spouses is incredibly hard even for experienced instructors. Since most people's "training" experience begins and ends with teaching their wife and maybe kids, I suspect many folks have a very skewed view of what training someone looks like.

I haven't kept a great count, unfortunately, but I know for sure that I have worked with more than 50 people on shooting handguns over the last half decade. Men, women, children, all ages. My actual number is very likely over 100, but I'm not positive on that so we can just assume on the low side.

My own experiences with that large variety of students has not remotely reflected the common belief expressed once again in this thread that revolvers are in any way easier to learn how to shoot for a beginner, and in speaking with instructors who have far more experience than I do with new shooters, I have yet to hear one experienced professional instructor that believes it is any easier to teach new shooters with a revolver.

Fair, but I don't think we are talking about the same thing. I agree that for most people it is not.

A revolver, by definition, has less steps to fire. They also do not, generally speaking, have manual safeties. And they do not require, generally speaking, doing anything other than pulling the trigger again if you have a misfire.

Any mechanics that have more steps become more complicated for more people, even if those steps individually are easy to do. Think about it in terms of a car engine. How can someone change a battery and not be able to change their oil? And then you teach them to change oil. OK great. Now they know how, but they still pay Jiffy Lube every 3,000 miles. Why? Because more mechanical steps become more complicated for more people. That exact same logic applies here.

My wife can shoot my Glock just fine. She can tear it down and clean it and put it back together.But as simple as it sounds to rack a slide or even worse remember if she did already is one step she is not comfortable with in a carry gun. Never mind the complications of a manual safety. She is not unique in that. I can change my oil, but I pay Jiffy Lube. But I do change out batteries.

Now, actually hitting something with a double action revolver is a completely different story. And I am not advocating revolvers necessarily for first time shooters. But for some, it is the right answer, whether they shoot a lot or not. And the idea that its all about training or everyone can train their way out of it is not true IMHO(not that you made that assertion)

I don't know what to tell you man. Nobody who teaches how to shoot in any real capacity seems to have the wild difficulties all the folks who push revolvers seems to imagine we have in teaching people how to use a semi auto.

Hell, it takes less time to demonstrate and explain how to use a semi auto than it took you to write that post.

I'm done derailing OPs thread about this topic, I'll just leave it at this: My experience varies...significantly.

OP, hope you have a fantastic class tomorrow and learn a lot. Come back and let us know how it went.

BenderRodriguez said:

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I don't know what to tell you man. Nobody who teaches how to shoot in any real capacity seems to have the wild difficulties all the folks who push revolvers seems to imagine we have in teaching people how to use a semi auto.

Hell, it takes less time to demonstrate and explain how to use a semi auto than it took you to write that post.

I'm done derailing OPs thread about this topic, I'll just leave it at this: My experience varies...significantly.

OP, hope you have a fantastic class tomorrow and learn a lot. Come back and let us know how it went.

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Its not about teaching them how to use. Its about getting them to use.

That place has a bunch of guns you can try out.

agsalaska said:

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Its not about teaching them how to use. Its about getting them to use.

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Consider for a moment that I'm well aware of that.

Remember that I previously mentioned the difficulty everyone, myself and yourself included, has in teaching their spouses.

Then maybe consider that applying your direct experience and difficulty with getting your wife comfortable shooting and carrying a semi auto may have zero relevance for an actual instructor when it comes to teaching new shooters.

And then maybe stop telling me in paragraph form how hard and difficult it is to teach a new shooter to carry and use a semi auto when I've successfully done it dozens of times.

I'm confused. I have always carried semi handguns. Some with safety and some without. I've also carried revolvers from small Rugers to Judges. I don't really care what a person carries, but if they don't go to the range and become proficient at it, they absolutely should not carry it. No matter what I carry, it's loaded with a round chambered. If you can't carry this way confidently, you better realize now that if the time were to ever come when you need it, you probably won't have time to chamber a round. As for the learning curve on a semi handgun, you put a magazine in, rack the slide, holster your gun, and start your day. Definitely not rocket science. If you only feel comfortable with a handgun with safety, go to the range and practice drawing, switching your safety over, and fire. Practice and proficiency is the absolute most important whether you carry a revolver or a semi.

Like I said Bender, we are not talking about the same thing.

RCR06 said:

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A self defense gun is not the time to bargain shop.

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Get the full accessory kit:

agsalaska said:

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My wife can shoot my Glock just fine. ...as simple as it sounds to rack a slide or even worse remember if she did already is one step she is not comfortable with in a carry gun. Never mind the complications of a manual safety.

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You say you have a Glock, but complain about the complications of a manual safety.
...Okay, that's odd, but let's skip it.

For the part in bold, are you also trying to advocate carrying on an empty chamber?

Remember in the White Settlement shooting, he carried on an empty chamber too.

blindey said:

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RCR06 said:

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A self defense gun is not the time to bargain shop.

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Get the full accessory kit:

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Loudener is my favorite accessory

Naveronski said:

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agsalaska said:

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My wife can shoot my Glock just fine. ...as simple as it sounds to rack a slide or even worse remember if she did already is one step she is not comfortable with in a carry gun. Never mind the complications of a manual safety.

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You say you have a Glock, but complain about the complications of a manual safety.
...Okay, that's odd, but let's skip it.

For the part in bold, are you also trying to advocate carrying on an empty chamber?

Remember in the White Settlement shooting, he carried on an empty chamber too.

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I'm not complaining at all. And I am not advocating carrying on an empty chamber.

My only point was that there is a difference between teaching someone to handle a semi automatic pistol and getting them to actually use it. That is because of mechanics, and one of the reasons revolvers are still popular.

That's it.

agsalaska said:

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Like I said Bender, we are not talking about the same thing.

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We actually are, just from two different perspectives.

You're arguing that it is easier to get someone to actually use and carry a revolver because "less steps" in a vague, theoretical sense and based on your experience teaching your wife.

I'm arguing there is no substantive difference in getting someone prepared to use a semi or wheel gun based on actual experience with dozens of men and women getting them prepared to use the gun.

You're looking at a marble and a bowling ball and arguing that it makes theoretical sense one would drop faster than the other, and I'm telling you I've dropped a bunch of them and they fall the same way.

Not to mention that its a flawed comparison even at the theoretical level because the mechanics of shooting a Glock or M&P Shield is the exact same as the easy revolver mechanics you keep talking about: "point and shoot".

OP, today was the day, right?

How did class go?

BenderRodriguez said:

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agsalaska said:

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Like I said Bender, we are not talking about the same thing.

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We actually are, just from two different perspectives.

You're arguing that it is easier to get someone to actually use and carry a revolver because "less steps" in a vague, theoretical sense and based on your experience teaching your wife.

I'm arguing there is no substantive difference in getting someone prepared to use a semi or wheel gun based on actual experience with dozens of men and women getting them prepared to use the gun.

You're looking at a marble and a bowling ball and arguing that it makes theoretical sense one would drop faster than the other, and I'm telling you I've dropped a bunch of them and they fall the same way.

Not to mention that its a flawed comparison even at the theoretical level because the mechanics of shooting a Glock or M&P Shield is the exact same as the easy revolver mechanics you keep talking about: "point and shoot".

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Again, it has nothing to do with preparing them. I agree with you that preparing people to shoot a semi is not substantially different. It is probably easier to teach someone how to be effective with a semi than a revolver.

But I am pretty sure my theory on why some people who can shoot either still choose revolvers has some validity.

I'm out. Yall have a great night.

Thought I would chime in here as I just got out of my intro to handguns class at Point Blank Shooting in Lewisville. It was a ladies only class. It was 3 hours of classroom time and 1 hour on the range, but the instructor talked a little too much so it was close to 40 minutes on the range. We had 10 people in the class and only went through 15 rounds. They only had one instructor on the range, and I think we could have gotten more practice in if they had added an assistant.
I feel like I understand how to use a handgun pretty well now. I understand how it operates and how to handle it. I shot with a Walther PPS. It's our home handgun but I think my husband will carry it after we get our LTCs. I didn't care for it. I can't comfortably initiate the slide lock. That being said, if I had to shoot it, I know that I can, and I know I can hit a target and I'm not concerned about passing the LTC.
With all that being said, I don't enjoy shooting. I never have, and I don't think it will ever be a hobby for me, but now it's a viable last resort for me if I need to defend myself.

Good! Which class? My wife has been interested in taking a "ladies only" one.

We're in Fort Worth. If you and (or) your husband would be interested in shooting a variety of different Glock pistols, we can do that.

... and a .22 Ruger that is suppressed and a joy to shoot (no recoil and quiet as a mouse).

The place is called Shoot Point Blank and it is in Lewisville. Little bit of a drive from Fort Worth, but it was only $50 ($80 for 2 people I believe). A lot of the classes I found were sold out.

aggiespartan said:

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Thought I would chime in here as I just got out of my intro to handguns class at Point Blank Shooting in Lewisville. It was a ladies only class. It was 3 hours of classroom time and 1 hour on the range, but the instructor talked a little too much so it was close to 40 minutes on the range. We had 10 people in the class and only went through 15 rounds. They only had one instructor on the range, and I think we could have gotten more practice in if they had added an assistant.
I feel like I understand how to use a handgun pretty well now. I understand how it operates and how to handle it. I shot with a Walther PPS. It's our home handgun but I think my husband will carry it after we get our LTCs. I didn't care for it. I can't comfortably initiate the slide lock. That being said, if I had to shoot it, I know that I can, and I know I can hit a target and I'm not concerned about passing the LTC.
With all that being said, I don't enjoy shooting. I never have, and I don't think it will ever be a hobby for me, but now it's a viable last resort for me if I need to defend myself.

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Don't feel bad, that is a quite common experience and one of the reasons revolver advocates hold our opinions so firmly.

Good feedback on your class, shooting may not be your thing and that is fine. What I have figured out though, is practice makes perfect. Yes it may be a last resort action for you in self defense situation, but that also means stress is higher because other attempts to resolve have failed. So please still get some practice in when you can. Doesnt have to be competitive shooting or anything formal, just needs to be practice going from however you carry to hitting a target.

I may need to try a revolver and try shooting outside. I don't like shell casings flying at my head and I don't like loud bangs (have never even cared to be around fireworks since I was a kid). I felt like I jumped every time someone shot even with ear protection on.

A .22 and an outdoor range may help.

Or may not, if the noise and effects do bother you that much.

Either way, glad you're now capable of safely using a gun to protect yourself. Training is good.

Which part of Texas are you in? You may like a suppressed 22 - either pistol, or rifle.

If you do shoot a revolver, insist on light loads. Far too many sadists think its funny to give new shooters very heavy loads.

I suggest an all steel revolver, and either 38 special wadcutters, "cowboy loads", if its a bigger caliber, or get a 32. I know a number of ladies who enjoy shooting a steel 327 Federal, and 38 special wadcutters.

I'm in DFW. I have small hands and probably an average grip. 5'2 and 112lbs so I'm looking for something relatively small. I'm not going to be able to conceal anything too big. I do plan to get my LTC.

RCR06 said:

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blindey said:

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RCR06 said:

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A self defense gun is not the time to bargain shop.

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Get the full accessory kit:

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Loudener is my favorite accessory

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I always figured you were more of a speedcocker type but fair enough.

gibberish said:

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techno-ag said:

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BenderRodriguez said:

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techno-ag said:

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For beginners, a 38 revolver is hard to beat. Always goes bang. Recoil is manageable.

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They don't always go bang. And when they don't, you're usually completely out of it. I only seriously shot revolvers for a year, and had multiple times they didnt go bang (new and old guns, all factory ammo). If you think revolvers are infallible, you need to shoot them more.

Recoil is manageable. In a 4" K frame. Less so in an airweight J frame, so blanket "revolvers are easy on recoil" is half accurate.

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We've had this discussion before and i stand by it. Good people can disagree. But i will always say that a beginner will have fewer difficulties with a revolver than anything else.

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No one sees more complete noobs to guns than law enforcement and the Army. And they all moved on to semi autos.

I do think revolvers are still relevant but not for the reasons you state. In my opinion it has more to do with NPE use or administrative manipulations. As for function, I agree with bender. It only takes about 50 rounds to seriously gum up a revolver and require a brushing to keep it working and god help you if you bend the crane.

ETA: pick a good revolver if you must. Hint it's not a judge. .410 sucks against people out of a short barrel

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This is so true. I started my police career back in 1978 and revolvers were the only option. I had experience with the 1911 in the Army but learning to shoot a revolver out to 50 yards (max qualification distance in those days) double action took a lot of work. I eventually became a revolver convert and carry one EDC and qual with it for LEOSA along with my Glock 17 annually.

blindey said:

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RCR06 said:

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blindey said:

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RCR06 said:

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A self defense gun is not the time to bargain shop.

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Get the full accessory kit:

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Loudener is my favorite accessory

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I always figured you were more of a speedcocker type but fair enough.

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hahaha, touche

We just got back from visiting a couple of gun stores. I found a couple that felt pretty good - the Smith and Wesson 442 .38 and the Sig p365XL. Going to try to get to a range to try them out before I make any decisions.