BenderRodriguez said:

---

You seem to be advocating empty chamber carry on striker fired guns for inexperienced people as a safer method if they're not going to carry something with a manual safety or a long trigger and not seek training. Is that correct?

---

No, I do not advocate empty chamber carry for anyone. I am against striker fired guns all together for people that either 1. don't have much experience/training, or 2. Use and carry their handguns in a more casual sense. Most new gun owners are going to fit one of the two of these criteria. You take somebody that fits both categories and major recipe for disaster.

I personally fall in to #2. Ive owned Glocks, XDs, etc but no longer do. 90% of my handgun use is as an outdoor tool. Riding the river or hunting lease shooting snakes. Maybe finishing off a wounded hog, camping, etc. Because Im not really worried about a turtle getting the jump on me, a pistol with a simple thumb safety better fits those needs.

To me, it's like the fence around the swimming pool. The majority of 2 year olds that drown in a swimming pool were under the care of responsible adults. Why would they need a fence around the pool?

MouthBQ98 said:

---

No one solution is going to be ideal for almost everyone.

---

The only "one solution" I recommend is actually knowing how to use a gun if you're going to carry one to defend yourself and your loved ones with.

It just so happens there is an almost 100% correlation between knowing how to use a gun and not carrying condition 3. Weird how that works out.

CS78 said:

---

No, I do not advocate empty chamber carry for anyone.

---

Okay, it was hard to tell because the only thing you've been railing on in this thread is inexperienced people carrying chambered Glocks.

Having been around a lot of inexperienced people with guns, they're most dangerous when they think the gun they're holding is unloaded. Way, way more "unloaded" guns have hurt people than chambered guns carried by inexperienced people....which is why I'm so adamantly opposed to the idea that carrying with an empty chamber is somehow a "safer" way to do things. When inexperienced people think guns are unloaded, they are less careful with them. It creates just as much of (if not more) an accident potential than inexperienced people carrying a loaded gun in a good holster, any day.

But everybody seems to fixate on how dangerous one is over the other, when they are both equally potentially dangerous with someone who doesn't know what they're doing....which is the actual danger.

When considering CC or personal protection I would rather not have to worry about racking a slide or working a safety. But, I am not comfortable carrying a glock/other striker fired weapon with the safety in fire position.

What I am comfortable with is carrying something with DA, loaded, safety in fire position. My preference is a DA/SA semi-auto with decocker or DAO revolver.

I arrived at this preference because I am comfortable carrying something with a substantial long/firm DA trigger pull. This helps protect against ND due to anything snagging the trigger etc.

I have just always been a little skittish about the trigger pull on the striker fired guns. The required trigger pull just seems to light for me to feel safe carrying hot.

The downside of a DA/SA decocker semi-auto is it is a slightly more complex action that takes a little while to make second nature. Also the DA trigger pull is a little harder to shoot accurately. All this means more/consistent practice and range time.

Just my 2 cents - it is what I am comfortable with. I try to avoid giving others advice, but when asked for a recommendation by a new or inexperienced shooter, I say semi-auto (or revolver) in DAO.

I do love the monthly carry condition threads.

CS78 said:

---

hunter2012 said:

---

This always comes to mind, if your not stupid about your carry piece there won't be an issue.

---

While it wasnt a defensive situation, had a marine puff up and tell me that one morning on the banks of the Brazos. It was in the heat of things and against my better judgement I moved him to the left side of the group and let him keep hunting. Next flock of birds in, his "safety" malfunctioned and he blew a 6" hole in the mud before his gun even made it up.

For defensive carry Im in the carry chambered camp but gun either needs a manual safety or long/heavy trigger. Chambered strikers should be reserved for LEOs or the extremely well disciplined.

---

I'd say this qualifies as stupid with his weapon...

"Chambered strikers should be reserved for LEOs or the extremely well disciplined."

How does the myth of the supremely trained LEO keep getting passed around. The average cop shoots 50 rounds a year to do their quals.
There are plenty of well-practiced LEO's, but that's not normal for most cases.

I do not have a LTC. I own a 1911 because John Browning was a genius, but so far it's my only pistol. I have never had formal training with any weapon, but I've been shooting guns of all types for 38 years.

I've read a few of these threads over the years, and my question is this. If I decide to earn my LTC, and I choose to carry in condition 3, instead of condition 1 like John Browning intended, does this somehow make me a terrible gun owner? Would advocates of carrying with a round in the chamber rather I just didn't carry at all?

My very novice opinion on this subject is that I would prefer to carry in condition 3, because quite honestly I believe it is far less accident prone, and I really do not want to take a life. If racking a slide gives me 3 seconds longer reaction time to contemplate pulling the trigger on another human being I do not see that as a bad thing? Yes, it could be the difference in being killed myself. I get that. But I carry condition 3 at the deer lease as my snake / pig dispatcher because I am more comfortable knowing I have to rack the slide before the weapon will fire. No amount of unforeseen accidental brush snags, ankle twisting falls, poor inexperienced holster draws, etc. can overcome the odds of an empty chamber firing in an unsafe direction.

I am a blank canvas here. I admit I am a novice and I can learn from Bender and just about anyone on this board. And I'm willing to admit maybe the fact that I do not want to take a human life is reason enough to keep from ever pursuing my LTC. I have stalled this long, and if I apply it would mostly be for the side benefit of quicker gun purchases, and the fact that I've read LEOs seem to give LTC holders that correctly identify themselves during traffic stops a few less speeding tickets.

What do the experts have to say about this?

average_joker said:

---

The average cop shoots 50 rounds a year to do their quals.

---

False. That's the minimum, not the average and certainly far from the mean average.

CactusThomas said:

---

average_joker said:

---

The average cop shoots 50 rounds a year to do their quals.

---

False. That's the minimum, not the average and certainly far from the mean average.

---

The 50 officer department I worked for would offer free ammo to any officer that showed up when they were training new hires at the range (range fees covered for all department, 24/7/365 at this range). No one showed up.

https://www.usacarry.com/safe-distance-engage-threat-21-foot-rule/

This article presents something else to think about.

Great post and I appreciate your perspective. It's a common one for shooters with lifetime experience but not a lot of formal pistol training. I started out in your shoes. All I will say is that the more you train, familiarize yourself with your weapon, use good gear (appropriate holster to prevent discharge due to brush snags and falls), and obtain formal instruction from experts, you'll eventually convert to condition 1 if using 1911 terminology. It just depends on how much time you want to put in to your training. Good luck on your journey, whatever path you choose!

Why didn't you ever show up? Lots of people prefer to shoot on their own property rather than at a range.

That depends on the individual agency or department. My dad had 42 deputies for many years. He required them to shoot a course at the range every 60 days. They had minimum scores they had to hold and if you missed 3 times you lost your job.
I know multiple departments that require range time every 30 days.
The emphasis on staying proficient with handguns and AR's in many departments has grown exponentially over the last 15 or so years. Many departments have dedicated full time firearm trainers now on payrolls.
It is not 100% across all departments but is is pretty prevalent mainly due to liability issues.

I was there, that's how I know one showed up.

Not many officers working for for a department near SW Dallas making 48-60k a year have their own land.

I know a few guys that are the firearms instructors for their police departments. They have a very low opinion of the average officer's ability with firearms and their willingness to improve. Very few go out and work with their guns beyond the required training and qualifications.

Not so funny story one instructor told me. He was doing the yearly qualification for a detective, the detective went to shoot and nothing happened. Turns out his magazine was empty. The instructor asked him the last time he checked his gun. Detective told him the last time he used it was at qualification the year before. Apparently he shot all the ammo, holstered it and carried an empty gun the rest of the year.

I'm going to try and divide and conquer in my response to your post, because you're asking about a lot of different subjects.

1)Should I get a LTC, even if I'm probably not going to carry?

Like you said, it makes buying guns quicker by skipping the NICS check, and the carry class provides a lot of good information on use of force laws in Texas. For those two reasons alone, even if you never carry a day in your life afterwards I would say that it would be worth your time.

2) Does ____ make me a terrible gun owner? Would you rather I not carry at all?

You're a free man. As long as you're not harming others I honestly don't care what you do or don't do. But I'd love the opportunity to help you learn and make smarter, safer decisions.

3) Condition 3 feels safer.

Yes an empty gun is safer than a loaded gun. Here is the problem: there are many, many more documented accidents from people who thought a gun was empty than from people who had a loaded gun malfunction and fire while in a holster.

It is easy to chamber a round at the lease, then holster a loaded gun because you need your hands free to open a gate or do something else and forget you have a loaded gun in your holster. Then while leaving the lease or when you get home, you "know" you have an unloaded gun because you only ever carry in condition 3. But this time, you're wrong. That is dangerous. How many stories do we all know about the hunter who forgot to unload his rifle before climbing out of the deer stand and put a round somewhere it didn't belong from his "unloaded" rifle?

One of the core tenets taught to almost all gun owners is a safety rule "treat every firearm as if it were loaded". The potential for careless behavior is higher with people who get into the habit of trusting they have a gun in condition 3 if they "always" carry that way. If I pull a gun out of a holster to put in a safe, or clean, or whatever...the first thing I am going to do is clear the loaded gun. Because I know it's loaded, because it is always loaded if I am carrying it. Condition 3 carry sets you up to violate a basic safety rule, because people get complacent about guns that should be unloaded.

I have an experiment for you to try.

Next time you go to the lease, throw the loaded magazine in your non dominant pocket. Cock your empty 1911, put the safety on, and put it in your holster with no magazine, no round in the chamber. It won't be much slower than just chambering a round if you need it to load the magazine and chamber a round. In the meantime, every time you take it out of the holster check the gun. Is the hammer still safely in a cocked and locked position? You can repeat this experiment for as many trips to the lease as you would like. If you're carrying in a good holster, that hammer is never going to be down when you pull it out of the holster and should help you feel more comfortable with carrying a 1911 loaded.

dr_boogs and Bender - thanks for your replies. I wasn't sure how that post was going to go.

Bender - I agree complacency about treating every weapon as if it is loaded could set in if I "know" it is always in condition 3. It hasn't happened before, and I would argue that a gun with rounds in the mag, but an empty chamber is still a loaded weapon, so personally I do not think I would have an issue with it, but your point is a good one. And just because it hasn't happened to me before, is no guarantee that it won't ever happen. People get in a hurry, people have memory issues, it could happen. And honestly I never have contemplated your scenario where the weapon gets put in condition 1, isn't fired, and gets reholstered. I can't say I have ever done that, but I never even considered that before. It would certainly set up the potential for an accident.

I believe you both zeroed in on my biggest issue, as a novice pistol shooter, I lack the training required to gain the confidence needed to carry in condition 1. My perception that condition 3 is always safer is a crutch for a lack of training.

I really like the suggested drill with the weapon cocked and locked with the magazine in the other pocket. I never would have thought to try that. Now I'll intentionally be walking into brush piles and throwing myself down banks trying to prove the point

Thanks for your feedback and help.

We host/allow 5-6 large Texas PD/SD's that utilize our ranges and ranch land per year. They rent or lease the right to utilize our facilities for 1 week (7 days) at a time.
They train with handguns, long
guns/carbines (AR's) and shotgun.
They shoot for scores and are held to pretty rigorous standards compared to most qualifying requirements.
They do other training as well which includes specific SWAT exercises and long range shooting as well as a " Hogan's Alley" type of training with their various firearms.
The departments we deal with and the respective instructors have told us this training is mandatory and the officers performance must meet high standards or they lose those jobs.
The instructors we have met have tremendous confidence in the officers that successfully complete these training exercises.
In having the privilege to watch and observe them during these exercises I have great respect and admiration for those officers who successfully complete and pass this training curriculum.
In discussions with these agencies it seems these exercises are becoming mandatory requirements in a lot of PD's across Texas and other states.
I can say that a fringe benefit of hosting them is they bring a lot of cool equipment with them and sometimes we get to participate and "test" some of it. Fun.
I know I would never want to be a bad guy and have any of these guys after me.
Forgot to add. They are well trained and all carry hot. Go figure.

I had a ND once in my life. I attribute it to muscle memory from dry fire practicing so much. My ND happened while loading. I was even mentally going through the 4 safety rules almost subvocalizing them as I was loading and chambering my Glock. This happened in the master bedroom while getting ready for work. I was aiming it down in a safe direction at the night stand in front of an external wall. I never touched the trigger until I reflexively pulled it immediately after the slide went forward. I just had a brain fart. The 31,535,999 seconds each year where you have safely handled or safely stored a firearm mean nothing if you totally **** up the other 1 second. Given we're all human and humans tend to be far more apt at screwing something up from time to time rather than being flawless, you get where I'm going with this.

For me, it all comes down to what's more likely to happen: a negligent discharge made possible by carrying chambered or being surprise attacked from your blind side in the first place. It's a different answer for every person. Based on my demonstration, it's the former. I carry unchambered unless I'm in a specific situation that would warrant me carrying chambered. So 99.9% of the time, I carry unchambered.

It's a trade off based off each individual's situation. If you spend a lot of time in bad parts of town, the odds of being attacked from your blind side by a thug are a lot higher. My daily routine doesn't put me in a position like that as often as it would for others. I'm in bed at 9am every night. I have a kiddo in the house. I'm either at work, asleep, or with my family 99% of the time. I have almost zero free time to myself. It's depressing. What I always fear is a Luby's or Sutherland Springs type situation. Being unchambered in a situation like that wouldn't matter nearly as much unless the shooter picked you out of the dozens or hundreds as his first target. Given my daily routine and habits, even as astronomically unlikely as being present at a mass shooting is, I'd say that's it's more likely for me personally than being attacked by a thug in a dark alley because I'm NEVER in a dark alley in the first place. And if I was, that would be a situation. I know of in advance where I would carry chambered. However, I'm in public places surrounded by many every day in good parts of town in broad daylight. I always am very situationally aware and never park my car in a place where someone could surprise me.

I don't think there's a right or wrong answer to this debate. It's a trade off that would have to be evaluated on its merits in each individual's situation.

cstew, those are good points too. Like you, My family and I live very boring lives. We're in the 'burbs, we home school, go to a large church that has off duty uniformed police at every service and darn near every function, and we don't frequent high crime areas. I would agree with your take, that my odds of ever having to draw my weapon due to a human threat are much much lower than my odds of personally screwing up, forgetting, or being careless and causing a ND.

I've never had a ND. I can count one weapon handling mistake in my life. I was randomly handed a weapon in deer camp when we were all sitting around staying warm by the fire. I did not know the person, I did not ask to see the weapon, the whole situation was strange. But, when the rifle was presented to me I took it. I did not ask the person to open the action, nor did I immediately open the action myself. A practiced safe muzzle control, never had a hand anywhere near the trigger, and very promptly handed the weapon back to the person who gave it to me. My buddy later told me the guy was a total nut case and that he was 100% sure he handed me a loaded weapon. I was sick and embarrassed about that incident for years, and I really don't even know if the gun was loaded. I just know I screwed up because I did not ask the person to clear the weapon, and I didn't clear it myself. I've never even recounted the story to anyone until now. As I type this I realize I need to tell my 12 year old the story and have another gun safety talk with her the next time we go to the range.

I think it 100% is a lack of training and a different perspective on the perceived threats that make me more comfortable with carrying on an open chamber. I'm really a long gun person, and whether it is bird hunting, deer hunting, or range time, I am more comfortable with regard to safe muzzle control, keeping hands away from the trigger, and carrying a long gun. It's what I'm most accustomed too.

But Bender's point about complacency setting in because I "know" the chamber is always clear does have me thinking.

average_joker said:

---

"Chambered strikers should be reserved for LEOs or the extremely well disciplined."

How does the myth of the supremely trained LEO keep getting passed around. The average cop shoots 50 rounds a year to do their quals.
There are plenty of well-practiced LEO's, but that's not normal for most cases.

---

This.