Finally finding time this weekend to shoot a match. IDPA, so I'll be using the M10 and Comp3s.
Six total stages, two of which require 18 rounds, and another two that require 17.
This is exactly the sort of challenge I was looking for by switching to revolver this year. A single miss on two stages means an extra reload, while another two stages allow for only one make up shot before I'm forced into an extra reload. Should be a good under stress no fail drill.
I'm also excited to shoot this one because my new GoPro got here this week, so I should have some higher quality video of whatever happens.
Finished 14th out of 16 shooters, so I beat a couple of bottom feeders.
Even finished 5th overall on one stage, but taking 10+ seconds to clear a case that slipped under the star on another stage will eat up some time, as will a few hits to hard cover instead of the target.
I finished stronger than I started though (my 5th overall stage run was the last stage of the day for me), so I'm happy with improvements throughout, and I got better each stage. First match in a few months, first match ever with a revolver. It'll be a good benchmark to compare to in a year and see what I've improved on.
Funny story from the match: I had a nice, ~13ish second reload on the first stage of the match yesterday. It was on my SECOND reshoot of that stage. First time through, the swinging no shoot target fell off. Second time, the activator steel popper for the swinger took a solid hit and failed to fall, so we stopped and had to reset. Every case extracted perfectly on both of those runs. But on the third run, when the stage equipment was all finally working right, one case got stuck under the star. And of course, I cut my fingernails yesterday. So I've got next to no nail to get under the damn rim and I'm sitting there for 10 or more seconds trying to first get the case out of the cylinder, then get it past the star before I can reload.
It couldn't have happened on either of the runs that didn't count, naturally. This is the kind of luck I tend to have.
Video time, so we can all analyze my failures together.
Some things I noticed:
1) On the very first cylinder through the gun, I short stroked the trigger and rotated the cylinder without moving the hammer. Trying to "ride the reset" on a revolver is a really bad idea. Thankfully, it's the only time I did that all day. 2) You need more "space" to reload revolvers than semis. On stage 5, I bonked the barrel wall when moving the gun from muzzle up to eject cases to muzzle down to reload it. This is not something I've had to worry about before shooting semis. It also showed up again on stage 6 when I got too close to a wall and had to bring the gun into my chest to get around it. I need to give myself more distance around barriers, mostly for reloads but also just to eliminate unnecessary movement when transitioning around them like on stage 6. 3) There were a couple of times I missed the ejector rod with my index finger during the reload and had to try again. Since I'd like to stick with the weak hand reload for now, I think I'm going to practice hitting the rod with two fingers on my weak hand instead of just one to give me a little more room for error. Inexperienced revolver shooter problems. 4) Round counts, round counts, round counts. How hard is it to count to 6? Pretty hard, apparently. Multiple times I pulled the trigger a 7th time for a click instead of a bang, wasting time. I need to continue working on my stage planning and my awareness of what I've already shot so I'm not surprised as often by an empty gun. 5) on a camera note, I like the new GoPro but I need to angle it down a bit more so I can hopefully get my reloads on film in the future as well. They're a big part of the revolver shooting game and if I can't see them I don't know what I need to improve on with them.
To give myself a few kudos as well so this isn't just a self stomp fest: Despite two reshoots and a 13 second reload when a case got stuck under the star on stage 1, I actually improved steadily throughout the rest of the match. Usually I shoot on a bit of a bell curve, with my first stage being slightly suboptimum, 2-3 or 4 being decent, and 5-6 and beyond going down hill as I become mentally fatigued. I've been working not just on dry fires and reloads but my mental game as well, and I think it is starting to show. My best stage of the day was the very last stage I shot. That's new, and I like it.
I'm also throwing up a quick comparison video of my first cylinder on stage 1 and my first cylinder on stage 6. I think there's a noticeable difference in my confidence with the DA trigger in matches in just a few stages. First cylinder had a lot of hesitation and trigger staging that was gone by the end of the match. Hoping to see that improvement continue.
Shot a falling steel match this weekend with the 627. It was below freezing and raining, so not a lot of folks came out. We had 18 shooters. I finished 13th, and was the only revolver shooter.
First match with this gun. Like my first match with the M10 from earlier, everything got smoother on later stages than it was on early stages. Less misses, less clicks on an empty cylinder, etc.
Match was 3 stages, with each stage being run twice. The first time, you have a 30 second par time. Every piece of steel left up at the end of 30 seconds adds 2 seconds to your time. Then you repeat all 3 stages with no par time, but every piece of steel left up at the end adds 5 seconds to your time.
There were also several 9 shot arrays at this match, which is fun with an 8 shot wheel gun. That forced some different stage planning. For the 30 second par time stages, there were several times it was beneficial to shoot 8, reload while moving to the next position, and keep shooting rather than waste time on a static reload to clear one more target that was only adding two seconds. However, since standing steel added 5 seconds in the no par time stages, that wasn't worth it and forced some reloads at awkward times and positions. That's really obvious on the 2nd and 5th stages (blue targets had to be engaged in blue box, yellow in yellow, both 9 shot arrays). The par time run, I shot 8 in each box, reloaded on the move and left targets standing once one cylinder was done. It forced weird reloads in the no par time stage though, because shooting 8 and moving would have added 10 seconds minimum to my stage time for those two standing targets (and that's being optimistic about shooting the other 8 clean).
I still had a few times where I couldn't count to 8, but they were more often at the beginning of the match than the end, which I'll take as a positive. One interesting thing to note was that I missed my count several times on the moving targets, even at the end. Humans are poor multitaskers, and when I was concentrating on the moving targets, I lost track of rounds fired.
Moonclips are easier than speed loaders, but my reloads still need some work.
Honestly, I was under prepared for this match. I had been doing some dryfire/reload work at home, but I haven't been to the range since I shot an IDPA match two weeks ago. I've got lots of excuses (7 month old at home so limited free time, and what free time I do have I'm mostly using to run because I'm signed up for a half marathon in April and my fat ass isn't in shape for it, etc), but the lack of range time is evident in the video. Nothing is as smooth as it should be, because I haven't invested the practice time.
I'm making some plans/arrangements to free up a little more time to at least get to the range once a week in addition to upping my dry fire time. It's not ideal, but unfortunately getting better at shooting isn't my only responsibility right now. Still happy to have this as a benchmark to compare match video from late this year/early next year to and see what progress I've made.
It's been a busy month. Been very hard to find time to go to the range for practice or competition, and I've been traveling for part of the month too.
Should be getting back to the range soon, but in the meantime I'll keep the thread alive with this:
Someone asked elsewhere if I could provide a comparison shot of all the wheel guns I'm using this year, so I'm copying it over here too.
From top to bottom: S&W 627 (4 inch N frame, 8 shot cylinder) S&W Model 10 (4 inch K frame, 6 shot) S&W 586 L Comp (3" L frame, 7 shot) Ruger LCRx (3", 5 shot) S&W 637 (1.8" J frame, 5 shot)
Side shots don't tell the whole story with revolvers though. When you add capacity to a revolver, you add some bulk. The following paired guns have identical barrel lengths and similar grip lengths, but the cylinder size is dramatically different.
On the left is the 8 shot 627, on the right is the 6 shot Model 10
On the left is the 7 shot 586, on the right is the Ruger LCRx 5 shot.
Weights (all guns loaded to capacity with 158 gr ammo, 627 and 586 loaded with moon clips): 627: 46.7 oz 586: 39.9 oz M10: 38 oz LCRx: 18.2 oz 637: 17.8 oz
Just for fun, here's a similar size and weight gun to the 627:
It only weighs 0.3 oz more than the 627. Is about the same size. Oh, but it has a red dot, light, magwell and 18 rounds of 9mm on board.
Your gun grip evolved in about a month. Any reason(s) for the change?
Good eye. Yes it did, and yes there are.
The TL;DR version is like most old school pistol shooting wisdom, there is a better way to do it. The old school crossed thumbs revolver grip is what I learned how to shoot a wheel gun with, and it worked okay for small gripped J frames and static range shooting. But a thumbs forward grip lets me get more meat of both hands on the frame to control recoil/get sights back on target quicker. Just like with semi autos, thumbs forward is just better than any other technique.
One additional thing that's changed that isn't on video yet is how I reload. I've been using the weak hand index finger to hit the ejector rod. I've missed the rod more than once doing this. The initial idea was to limit extra movements required, since the reloads on a wheel gun are my biggest time killer. But the only thing slower than extra motion is wasted motion, and every miss is wasted time. So it may be fractionally slower, but I've switched to a palm strike on the ejector rod instead. More motion, but more surface area for a more reliable hit on the rod too. I think the tradeoff will be worth it.
I'm also working on releasing the moon clips earlier. I ride them all the way into the cylinder right now. I need to find that sweet spot where once things are lined up, I drop the clip and let gravity help me out.
The TL;DR version is like most old school pistol shooting wisdom, there is a better way to do it. The old school crossed thumbs revolver grip is what I learned how to shoot a wheel gun with, and it worked okay for small gripped J frames and static range shooting. But a thumbs forward grip lets me get more meat of both hands on the frame to control recoil/get sights back on target quicker. Just like with semi autos, thumbs forward is just better than any other technique.
Gotcha'. And agreed. I never got the attraction for crossed except for shooting SA...a discussion had with numerous shooting aquaintances, generally remaining the odd man out.
Gotcha'. And agreed. I never got the attraction for crossed except for shooting SA...a discussion had with numerous shooting aquaintances, generally remaining the odd man out.
Good thread, BTW.
Thanks.
Yeah, single action would be easier with the thumbs over style, but it's not really something I'm going to bother training for. Single action triggers on revolvers are too light to use under stress, and I'm not shooting bullseye with these guns, so my single action shooting with any of these guns is going to be pretty much nil.
The extra meat I get on the grip by going thumbs forward has been much more beneficial than the ability to manual cock the hammer, something I'm not training to do anyway.
Bender, could you post a pic of your grip on the 587 please. I always carry my 686+ and i feel like I can not get a complete grip with my left hand. I do thumbs forward. Thanks!
Bender, could you post a pic of your grip on the 587 please. I always carry my 686+ and i feel like I can not get a complete grip with my left hand. I do thumbs forward. Thanks!
This is a really good question. I sometimes shoot a Model 10 (because I think it makes me better with my autoloaders) and frequently carry an LCR (because it's the only fun I own in a serious caliber that I can hide under most of my clothing), but I've never really been comfortable with my grip on either.
Just now seeing this after getting back from the range. Fail on my part. Yeah I'll try to do that this week.
Finally, FINALLY got back out to the range today. It shows that I haven't been shooting or dry firing much in the last month, everything was rusty and bad.
I'll get videos up tomorrow, but I shot some of my standards drills with the 627 today.
5 second standards: failed at 15y Reloads: shot a 12.8x at 7 yards 500 point aggregate: scored a 407. Last time I shot the drill with a CZ I shot a 437, so my scores are down. As to be expected when I haven't shot any practice or matches in a month. Damn I hate being this rusty.
I hope no one is bored enough to actually watch this. I hesitated to even post it, for several reasons.
1) It's just drills, not fun match video, and drills are boring to shoot, much less watch someone else shoot. 2) I cut it down and even sped up a few parts, and it's still 15 minutes long. 3) I haven't shot a match, practice, or even much dry fire in the last month. It shows. This is not "look at how awesome I am" video. This is "watch how much practice matters, kids, because if you don't practice you'll shoot this badly!" type video.
But I wanted to document where I'm starting from, and put numbers on drills so I could measure improvement or lack thereof.
5 second drill was shot several times, and I can clear 7 and 10 yards consistently with the 627. I failed both times at the 15 yard mark, once on the strong hand only portion, once with a two hand shot from the draw.
Reload drill was incredibly sloppy. I got to experience a new revolver shooting error I haven't committed before: not closing the cylinder fully on the reload. My fastest clean run was 12.89 seconds to draw, shoot 8, reload, shoot another 8. Slow.
500 point aggregate was an interesting one. On video, I mistakenly read a 238 as a 235 and deduct 3 points from my score in error. I also managed to miss a double in the 7 zone, and since I had two other shots off target completely assumed my missing shot was also a miss until I got home and was bringing targets into the house. Here's the double that looked like a single to me on the range, so my actual score on the 500 point aggregate was a 417. Not great, but better than the 407 I thought I had shot yesterday.
Dry fire emphasis for the week: strong hand and weak hand only shooting. My mediocre one hand shooting kills my 500 point drill score and my chances of moving 5 second standards back to 20 yards. There are lots of things I need to improve on and my reloads were really bad this week too, but I'm going to work on the one handed dry fire for this week, and probably focus heavily on reloads next week.
Another thing I need to do better is take the opportunities during drills like this to practice my reloads. Yeah, the 10 shot strings on the 500 point drill aren't timed. No, I don't need to work on a fast reload during the 5 second drill. But I saw a lot of wasted opportunities to do so while watching this video. Given how limited my practice time has been lately, why on earth am I not taking every opportunity while at the range to work on something? Because I'm not a smart man, that's why. Goal for next range session where I'm shooting a lot of drills: take the opportunities given to work on ancillary skills.
Ouch. That hurts more than slapping a mag in, but some how making the base plate fall off with all your ammo falling out the bottom. Going to do a reload and forgetting to eject the mag body.
So before I beat myself up criticizing all the things I did wrong in the full match video, a couple positives I took away from that stage I posted yesterday.
1) I'm not prepping the trigger as much. I staged the hell out of the trigger in my first revolver match of the year (IDPA with the M10) in February. I'm getting more comfortable with the DA pull. Less hesitation, more solid trigger pulling. Happy about that.
2) Because this was a stage with 8 shot arrays and an 8 shot revolver, I was shooting slower trying to make sure I didn't miss. After I missed, I failed quickly. No head shake or grunt after a miss(a bad habit I used to have), just picked up speed and made 5 more good hits at a faster pace, then had a pretty decent reload and a quick last shot. I'm pleased with my recovery from the missed shot, and to know that I can push the pace a little more than I am currently and still make good hits. It's a confidence issue more than anything at this point, since I haven't been practicing much.
So, let's break it down, starting with the bs excuses first. My 9 month old has had a cold, and so did my wife and I. He's not sleeping well, so neither are we. She wasn't particularly happy with my decision to try and shoot a match with all of us in that condition, so that was on my mind. A cold front blew in and rained on us right after the match started. I didn't have my jacket in the car, so I spent the morning standing outside in a t shirt, wet with a wind chill of about 40. My hands felt really slow. Reloads were hard, and it was frankly hard to even get my head into the match thanks to the cold and the unhappy wife at home. I also have been busy running preparing for a half marathon at the end of April, and haven't been shooting much. I wouldn't have shot the match at all, if my dad wasn't in town. I wanted to get him out to a match and let him try it out (his first one).
So, cold, tired, wet, mind elsewhere, and haven't been practicing. Great condition to shoot a match.
But then again, all of those things could be true for actually having to defend yourself, so also actually pretty great conditions to test yourself in a match.
If it was a test, I'd say I scored about a 60. I had some decent stages, but I also had some miserable stages. Worst of all, my worst stage was the very first stage I shot. My "cold bore" performance was really awful.
First stage: If this was baseball, I think we could call it 4 errors? Dropped the hammer on an empty cylinder twice, missed the rod once during a reload, didn't close cylinder fully after another reload. And 9 misses on top of that, so an almost 25% miss rate with the shots taken.
The rest of the stages were a mix of good and bad, but I'm really disappointed with just how bad my first stage was. That's pretty indicative (IMO) of not being prepared either mentally or physically. Just one more thing to work on, on top of all the other stuff.
Ever read "no second place winners" by Bill Jordan?
No, but you raise a good point. I should read the wheel gun guys stuff this year while I'm shooting them. Currently down a rabbit hole reading about naval warfare in the build up to and during the first world war, but I'll take a hiatus after the current book and switch over.
I ordered that and Six Guns by Keith to read. I'd have ordered "Hell I was there" too but apparently it is out of print and I haven't found a copy for under $80.
Ever read "no second place winners" by Bill Jordan?
No, but you raise a good point. I should read the wheel gun guys stuff this year while I'm shooting them. Currently down a rabbit hole reading about naval warfare in the build up to and during the first world war, but I'll take a hiatus after the current book and switch over.
I ordered that and Six Guns by Keith to read. I'd have ordered "Hell I was there" too but apparently it is out of print and I haven't found a copy for under $80.
Six guns- Keith Hell I was there- Keith No second place winners- Jordan The custom revolver- Bowen
All must reads for anyone interested in revolvers.
Also highly recommend: Good friends, good guns, good whiskey (vol 1) Hoglegs, hipshots, and jalepenos (vol 2) Both by Skeeter Skelton
And of course, the Kuhnhausen shop manuals for whichever revolvers you are interested in.
Bender, could you post a pic of your grip on the 587 please. I always carry my 686+ and i feel like I can not get a complete grip with my left hand. I do thumbs forward. Thanks!
I need to find my copy of "six guns". Haven't seen it in a while.
I didn't grow up in a house that shot guns much. These old gun writers were like heroes to me. They are why I have always been interested in revolvers.
I start my revolver grip exactly like I do a semi auto grip: Making a V with my strong hand, getting the web between my thumb and fingers as high up on the back strap as I can without interfering with anything. Then wrap strong hand fingers around grip, as high up against the trigger guard as they can get. I think most everyone does that. The old school wisdom for revolvers was to curl the strong hand thumb down. But if you curl the thumb down, you can't get any of your weak hand palm onto the grip of the gun. You lose a lot of recoil control that way. So I put my strong hand thumb forward, under the cylinder release. I don't put it behind the cylinder release, because it doesn't take a lot of pressure to push it forward and keep the gun from firing.
So, if we have a thumbs forward strong hand grip, we can use a very similar thumbs forward weakhand grip on revolvers that we do on semi autos. Here's a picture of just the weak hand grip:
Weak hand thumb goes forward too, pressing against the frame under the cylinder. I start my weak hand grip by pressing weak hand thumb up against strong hand thumb, putting it flat against the frame, then curling my hands around my other hand/the grip, making sure to lay my weak hand index finger against the trigger guard where it can help the weak hand thumb grip the gun, in a sort of pinching motion between my thumb and index finger on the weak hand.
Here's what it looks like all slapped together:
Using a thumbs forward grip allows me to grip the frame with my thumb/index finger combo, and lets me put a lot more palm meat onto the actual grip of the gun with the weak hand. All of that helps with recoil control.
I started out trying to use a traditional crossed thumbs revolver grip (I think my first match video in this thread with the Model 10 is using it). I got away from it quickly. Just like with semi autos, thumbs forward is superior. If you're wanting to shoot quickly and accurately, anyway.
Shot a steel challenge match on Thursday night (5/16).
It was my first trip to the range since 5/1. Haven't been keeping up with my dry fire either.
I knew that was a bad sign, so I'm not shooting steel challenge with the J frame just yet. Going to get back into a practice routine and slowly easy down in size/capacity as I knock the rust off. So I started with the 8 shot gun. The good news is I only had to reload in the middle of a run once.
Finished 5th out of 11 centerfire pistol shooters. Got smoked (as always) by most of the PCC/22 crowd. It was a good turn out, lots of families out with wives and kiddos shooting. Part of the reason I love steel challenge, seeing so many families out shooting it together. My son turns one this June, so we have a few more years before we can join in on that.
Had a few clean runs, but lots of mental mistakes/sloppy shots. I sound like a broken record at this point, don't I? Don't practice, put in a mediocre match performance. Shouldn't surprise anyone at this point, myself included. We don't rise above the challenge, we perform at exactly the level we are prepared to perform at. I'm missing next weeks match due to other commitments, so the goal is lots of dry fire and at least one range trip between now and the next match. I'll be shooting the 627 again to see what a couple weeks of actual practice/preparation can do for me. Then I'll start going down and use the 7 shot L frame, then the 6 shot K frame...and finally try to end the year shooting steel challenge as a no fail drill with a 5 shot J frame.
Video note: edited down the first stage because we were dealing with some timer issues. No need to show all that on video. First steel match of the season, always have some teething problems.
Thanks Bender for the pics and explanation of your grip! I'm going to give it a shot (pun intended) soon. I was waiting for you reply and just now saw it a month late.
I'm not going to lie, it is going to feel weird. And it'll probably hit you wrong in all kinds of places.
But if you're going for accuracy at speed instead of old school bullseye shooting, it is a superior grip, IMO. I cut my hands up pretty good at first, but it was worth building some calluses for.
Never could figure out the hatred for revolvers. My Ruger SP101 in 9 mm was my backup service weapon for 22 years and is still my LEOSA/concealed carry gun. Smooth, long trigger pull with the loaded speed clips makes it super simple to use with plenty of mass to soak up recoil. It hides nicely and is super easy to deploy rapidly.!
Great thread. I'm going to read more carefully later.
I'll just chime in to say i went back to wheelguns in the 16 flood cleanup. Miles from anyone. Only Looters around. Every freaked out snake, racoon, hog, dog, coyote, deer, cow that survived going crazy. Covered in sticky, slimy smelly mud that is basically diahrea. Even the glocks wouldnt fire in those conditions. Even kept in ziplock baggies in a holster, theyd always leak or get torn.
Wheelgun though - fired every time. .357 does a nice job on a racoon face at 4 inches. Always buy stainless.
