I am a G19 fan. I am average sized and it conceals easily owb with a jacket. My favorite carry position is aiwb. I am on our church security team and carry concealed each Sunday as a PPO. Same goes for Commander/Officer size 1911. They conceal a little easier for me, but have less capacity. A SWAT officer I work with has been involved in 3 gunfights, all of which involved a magazine change. He stresses carry as big as you can and practice magazine changes.

My training consists of shooting off the timer doing the Wilson 5 x 5 drill, timer on 3 yard triple taps, etc.... I also take classes from instructors that involve stress shooting off timers, shoot houses, cars, running, etc.... It is amazing the degradation of skills under stress. I guess that is why I practice.

I feel like the problem with this whole argument is the people that speak in absolutes about what are practically minute details.

There are people that can hit a man sized target at 50+ yards with a pistol and there are people that cannot. If you give the one that can a 3" pistol chances are he still does it easily. If you give the one that can't a 9" barrel chances are they still can't.

I'm not disagreeing that any of what everyone is saying about how barrel length affects things. I'm really not disagreeing with anything anyone is saying, rather disagreeing with the absolutes that people speak in in regards to equipment without taking the largest variable into account (the shooter).

To absolutely say that only grip length affects conceal ability is also not true. If something isn't comfortable for whatever reason and someone is constantly adjusting then that isn't very concealed.

The almighty Bender and the echo chamber of the OB is correct in the most technical of ways. But practically speaking you are concentrating too much on one set of variables and making everyone fit into that box.

/rant

Love you guys and love the OB. I take all of your knowledge and apply it to myself in my own preferred ways.

jmm said:

---

I am a G19 fan. I am average sized and it conceals easily owb with a jacket. My favorite carry position is aiwb. I am on our church security team and carry concealed each Sunday as a PPO. Same goes for Commander/Officer size 1911. They conceal a little easier for me, but have less capacity. A SWAT officer I work with has been involved in 3 gunfights, all of which involved a magazine change. He stresses carry as big as you can and practice magazine changes.

My training consists of shooting off the timer doing the Wilson 5 x 5 drill, timer on 3 yard triple taps, etc.... I also take classes from instructors that involve stress shooting off timers, shoot houses, cars, running, etc.... It is amazing the degradation of skills under stress. I guess that is why I practice.

---

Would you mind sharing what "average size" is for you, and what AIWB holster you're using?

5'10" 175 lbs

Vedder
Blackhawk
Garrett Industries
Raven Vanguard
Cooks

Vedder- best practice holster. Don't carry it much, but is my daily practice holster.

Blackhawk- Small and adjustable height. Works very well.

Garrett- best quality. Really like the clip position over the trigger vs body of holster. Leather lined. I use this for 1911 style.

Raven Vanguard- my favorite for G19. Only covers trigger but is best for concealment. Is strictly on duty only.

Cooks- another favorite for 1911. Again, only covers trigger and is on duty only.

OWB - have tried many. They are cheap and all work about the same. Alien Gear is my least favorite. Tucker is my favorite leather for 1911.

texags08 said:

---

I feel like the problem with this whole argument is the people that speak in absolutes about what are practically minute details.

There are people that can hit a man sized target at 50+ yards with a pistol and there are people that cannot. If you give the one that can a 3" pistol chances are he still does it easily. If you give the one that can't a 9" barrel chances are they still can't.

I'm not disagreeing that any of what everyone is saying about how barrel length affects things. I'm really not disagreeing with anything anyone is saying, rather disagreeing with the absolutes that people speak in in regards to equipment without taking the largest variable into account (the shooter).

To absolutely say that only grip length affects conceal ability is also not true. If something isn't comfortable for whatever reason and someone is constantly adjusting then that isn't very concealed.

The almighty Bender and the echo chamber of the OB is correct in the most technical of ways. But practically speaking you are concentrating too much on one set of variables and making everyone fit into that box.

/rant

Love you guys and love the OB. I take all of your knowledge and apply it to myself in my own preferred ways.

---

I think the problem you're having is that you're reading your own assumptions into what I'm saying instead of reading what I'm actually saying. As far as I can tell, in this thread the one who has been talking the most in absolutes is you, mostly about absolutes you're assigning to other people that they never said in the thread.

I started out responding to this thread by saying that grip length is more important than barrel length for concealment, and that in general I prefer a longer barrel if it's feasible to carry one. I never said barrel length wasn't important, or that he had to pick the 4" over the 3" model. I also said what you can carry depends on how you dress during the day.

Then a post was made quoting a gun shop counter jock saying "accuracy doesn't matter at defensive distances", so I talked a little bit more about why a 4" sight radius is beneficial for accuracy over a 3" sight radius, and why accuracy matters in defensive shooting.

In your first response to my post about why accuracy does matter for a defensive pistol, you summed up my post by claiming I was "freely admitting" that "even if you're good, it won't matter under pressure"....which is an absolute statement that I did not make, and completely wrong.

You then posted a second response to the same post where you argued that "carrying something comfortable is better than not carrying"...when I never said "carry a full size gun or don't bother carrying at all".

You've constructed some sort of straw man out of my posts that is arguing things I never said, then you're complaining about all the "absolutes" that you assign to that straw man. I don't know how on earth I'm supposed to address the issues you have with the things I never said any better than I already did by pointing out that you're taking exception to things I didn't say.

I did say a few absolutes that I stand by. Longer sight radius is more beneficial to accurate shooting than shorter, and accuracy matters quite a lot in a defensive situation and even at defensive distances.

Those absolutes aren't anything that every other trainer worth anything isn't also saying, because it's not just an opinion we hold, it's an informed opinion backed up by tons of information through study of successful and unsuccessful self defense encounters, competitions, stress shoots, police and military studies and experiences with pistols, etc.

You're always more than welcome to disregard the advice of people like me, or KR's instructors, or the other folks on this board who can shoot as well or better than I can. Hell, a lot of the time those other guys I respect and think a lot of disagree with me on things, and that's great. This place is pretty damn far from an "echo chamber", and it would be boring if it was one. The one thing I'd ask you to do in the future is make sure you're arguing against something I'm actually saying instead of making up positions you then assign to me to argue against.

The G19 is a great mix of concealability and "fightability" (for lack of a better term).

I don't carry mine often anymore, but I'd hate to be without one as an option.

ntxVOL said:

---

Well, it seems many here disagree with my assertions and that's fine. I don't claim to be an expert by any means but I do feel that my accuracy is good enough with the smaller weapons I normally carry. My primary issue with most CCW weapons is the shorter height makes it harder to draw with a good grip right out of the holster.

The G19 has been on my wish list for a while, I guess I am going to have to pull the trigger and get one. I don't have anything, at the moment, with a 4 inch barrel to really compare with.

---

Not trying to pick on you specifically here, but you echo a sentiment I hear a lot from people I teach before they take a class so I want to use your example to get people thinking about how they measure their ability with a pistol. What does your accuracy being good enough mean? What size target are you shooting? Are you shooting it under a certain par time? I see lots of people at the range who think "if I can keep it all on the big human silhouette, that's good enough." I'd love to change that kind of thinking, because it doesn't meet the standards of accuracy we should expect out of ourselves if we're carrying a gun for self defense in public.

If I could encourage every single person on this board who has a CHL to do three things, it would really drive me out of a job in a lot of ways because the vast majority of my first classes are spent helping shift that thought process of "if it's all on the big 18" by 30" target that's good enough" to "Am I hitting exactly where I'm aiming". But I'd love it because it would mean we have more capable shooters out there than we do currently.

1) shoot smaller targets. 3x5 cards, 8" circles, whatever. Too many people shoot the B-27 (the chl qualification target), and feel pretty good when they keep all hits on the silhouette under static conditions with no time pressure. The problem with that B-27 is you can hit 6" or more off from where you were aiming and still rationalize it as a "hit" because it hit the paper, which isn't good for improving accuracy or fixing flaws in your fundamentals.

speaking of time pressure...

2) use a timer and shoot under a par time. Nothing will help illustrate how fundamentals degrade under pressure better than...you guessed it...pressure. Give yourself limited time to complete a course of fire and you'll start to see some errors creep into your shooting that are never there when you have all day to line up the sights and pull the trigger.

3) compete, compete, compete. Competition puts it all together: social stress, time stress, different sized targets at different distances, different shooting positions, reloads, movement.....competition is the single best thing you can do to train yourself how to shoot accurately under pressure.

Alright, soap box over. Shoot more, train more, etc. Yall know the drill.

Back to my original statement. I don't disagree with anything anyone is saying. I respect your knowledge on the situation.

You are right that I read some of what you were saying and took it somewhere that it wasn't going.

I also associated a mindset to you without really asking or searching for other valuable info regarding it. After reading your last reply to ntxVOL I stand corrected and can admit when I am wrong or wrongly assume things about others perceptions.

I apologize for attributing those things to you that you did not say. After reading the thread more carefully it seems like I was targeting you specifically when that wasn't my intention. I did use some of what you said, but my initial argument was meant to encompass a general feeling I get from many that echo "longer sight radius", "fine motor skills", "if you're in a firefight, then you need X". The annoying/frustrating part are poeple that use those as absolutes, which I know you do not. I projected my frustrations on to you and had no reason to warrant that. I do apologize.


TLDR:
My internet debating skills are horrible. I apologize for taking this way off topic. I never said anyone was wrong. I need to read a little more before flying off the handle.

texags08 said:

---

You are right that I read some of what you were saying and took it somewhere that it wasn't going.

---

It's all good, thanks for giving it a second read with fresh eyes.

May have been a slight derail, but I think it was probably good information regardless. Hope so anyway.

Its hard to read intent online, and its easy to misconstrue intent when someone is as long winded as I am and gives you lots of words to take the wrong way. Unfortunately it's not restricted to my online persona. Ask anyone who's taken a class with me, I talk way too much at all times. It's a character flaw.

BenderRodriguez said:

---

ntxVOL said:

---

Well, it seems many here disagree with my assertions and that's fine. I don't claim to be an expert by any means but I do feel that my accuracy is good enough with the smaller weapons I normally carry. My primary issue with most CCW weapons is the shorter height makes it harder to draw with a good grip right out of the holster.

The G19 has been on my wish list for a while, I guess I am going to have to pull the trigger and get one. I don't have anything, at the moment, with a 4 inch barrel to really compare with.

---

Not trying to pick on you specifically here, but you echo a sentiment I hear a lot from people I teach before they take a class so I want to use your example to get people thinking about how they measure their ability with a pistol. What does your accuracy being good enough mean? What size target are you shooting? Are you shooting it under a certain par time? I see lots of people at the range who think "if I can keep it all on the big human silhouette, that's good enough." I'd love to change that kind of thinking, because it doesn't meet the standards of accuracy we should expect out of ourselves if we're carrying a gun for self defense in public.

---

No problems, your critiques have actually caused me to re-think some things. I do shoot a lot, it has become a big hobby for me. I helped my next door neighbor build a range on his property and we shoot every chance we get, along with our sons. I am a competitive person by nature and we are always looking for ways to push each with things like speed, accuracy, and multiple targets.

Quote:

---

1) shoot smaller targets. 3x5 cards, 8" circles, whatever. Too many people shoot the B-27 (the chl qualification target), and feel pretty good when they keep all hits on the silhouette under static conditions with no time pressure. The problem with that B-27 is you can hit 6" or more off from where you were aiming and still rationalize it as a "hit" because it hit the paper, which isn't good for improving accuracy or fixing flaws in your fundamentals.

---

Yeah, no B-27 targets because those things aren't really very much fun IMO.

Quote:

---

speaking of time pressure...

2) use a timer and shoot under a par time. Nothing will help illustrate how fundamentals degrade under pressure better than...you guessed it...pressure. Give yourself limited time to complete a course of fire and you'll start to see some errors creep into your shooting that are never there when you have all day to line up the sights and pull the trigger.

---

Haven't invested in a shot time yet but we do use a stopwatch, mostly just to push ourselves and as a way to measure progress at completing certain scenarios.

Quote:

---

3) compete, compete, compete. Competition puts it all together: social stress, time stress, different sized targets at different distances, different shooting positions, reloads, movement.....competition is the single best thing you can do to train yourself how to shoot accurately under pressure.

---

Now this is something I haven't done and I keep telling myself I am going to. CCIDPA holds several competitions a month not 10 minutes from my house. Part of it is I don't want to embarrass myself. I am no pro and I am sure there are plenty of LEOs and ex-Military out there that I can't compete with. The other thing is, I am not sure I have the right kind of gun for those competitions, a G19 would probably work well for that.

Anyway, I appreciate all your advice and critiques as I am always looking for ways to improve my skills.

You'd be surprised, it's not usually the LEOs and Mil guys winning.

As a mil guy that firmly comes in middle of the pack, I try to keep the ego in check and just keep trying to improve maybe catch those GMs in the future.

I haven't shot my VP9sk yet, but I can't imagine it shooting much differently than the USP-C it replaced. I had a Glock 43 for a while and inside the range I shot -- 10 yards, I think -- it shot as well as the USP. On the other hand, the subcompacts will be lighter and easier to conceal.

I, thankfully, have not been in a gunfight and hope to avoid one. However, I have done the simulator shoot/don't shoot. I learned 2 things: 1) you BETTER know where you can find cover and use it and 2) outside of about 15 yards, you shouldn't be shooting a handgun at someone. Obviously if you're outgunned and they're firing at you, you have to do whatever to stay alive. But in my simulator, I stumbled on a gas station robbery, nailed the first guy, then shot at the second guy who got away. I got 2 of the gas pumps but not him! In the real world, you aren't going to fire at someone running away anyway (or you shouldn't).

ntxVOL said:

---

Now this is something I haven't done and I keep telling myself I am going to. CCIDPA holds several competitions a month not 10 minutes from my house. Part of it is I don't want to embarrass myself. I am no pro and I am sure there are plenty of LEOs and ex-Military out there that I can't compete with. The other thing is, I am not sure I have the right kind of gun for those competitions, a G19 would probably work well for that.

Anyway, I appreciate all your advice and critiques as I am always looking for ways to improve my skills.

---

Don't worry about the embarrassment part, for a couple of reasons.

Mostly because no one is going to care how well you shoot as long as you're a safe shooter, and also because while I've heard a few negative stories from others I haven't personally found a USPSA/IDPA match yet where people were not almost overly welcoming to a new shooter trying things out and excited to see new people getting involved.

If you want to just show up and watch one, ask questions, etc let someone know you're new and interested when you show up and I'm willing to bet you'll get all the help you could want. USPSA/IDPA shooters are, as a group the most Aggie like collection of non Aggies I've ever been around.

I'm also always willing to answer any questions anyone has about competition.

IF (and this is a big IF...) you can wear the longer bbl comfortably, then it would be better. Longer bbl = more gas expansion = less kick & less noise. Longer bbl will make it more enjoyable to shoot, practice, etc. But harder to conceal comfortable.