Been looking at an XDS for my new carry gun. I only recently discovered that a 4" barrel is available.

Does the extra inch add enough accuracy or energy-wise to justify the extra length/weight?

Does the shorter barrel really make enough difference in comfort that I shouldn't even consider the longer model?

What say you OB CC gurus?

I carry a g19 and like the extra grip length and sight radius.

Grip length is more important than barrel length when you're concerned about concealment.

Remember it's not just the barrel length that will be beneficial but a longer sight radius that comes with a longer barrel.

Given the option I'd always prefer a longer barrel if possible.

Far more important than barrel length though is a good strong gun belt and holster.

Though maybe you shouldn't listen to me, I'm concealing a full size USP-T today.

Grip length is same on the models I was checking out. I definitely appreciate the sight radius comment. Both are a little too small for my liking

Ironically, the counter guy's comment was something akin to, "accuracy wont matter much at defensive distances."

What's your usual attire?

I can get away with carrying full sized guns because I wear untucked polo or fishing shirts every day.

If you're stuck wearing a suit and a tucked in button down, smaller might be easier to conceal.

Just one more factor to consider.

How big a boy are ya?

Now if you were looking at P07's it would have a 3.75" barrel and the company who made it wouldn't make anti-gun political donations.
Source: http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/05/john-boch/springfield-armory-rock-river-arms-made-campaign-contributions-to-anti-gun-rights-politicians/

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Grip length is more important than barrel length when you're concerned about concealment.

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This. Unless you're trying to conceal OWB, in which case both are important. For IWB though, how long it is in your pants doesn't matter much. It's how long it is when you whip it out that makes a difference.

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Remember it's not just the barrel length that will be beneficial but a longer sight radius that comes with a longer barrel.

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This too...except oddly enough I shoot my G17 (4.5") better than I do my G34 (5.3"). Go figure.

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Given the option I'd always prefer a longer barrel if possible.

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This three...except I recently switched back to carrying my G17 instead of my G34 for the reason noted above.

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Far more important than barrel length though is a good strong gun belt and holster.

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And this times 100. Wilderness Tactical instructor's belt is where it's at.

The glock 19 is a nice choice.
Its my go to most of the time. I prefer it over my subcompact. Due to sight radius and capacity.

I carry the 3.3" xds when i tuck or wear tighter than normal clothing. So it definately has its place n the safe

A glock is awesome for too many reasons to count. But one is because if i run across spare time during the day I can hit the range. Its just more fun to shoot than the little guy.

Its funny though. I have found that a full size 1911 conceals better than many other options. The thin profile goes a long way.

Its the usual reaponse but true. Get more than one.

BenderRodriguez said:

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Grip length is more important than barrel length when you're concerned about concealment.

Remember it's not just the barrel length that will be beneficial but a longer sight radius that comes with a longer barrel.

Given the option I'd always prefer a longer barrel if possible.

Far more important than barrel length though is a good strong gun belt and holster.

Though maybe you shouldn't listen to me, I'm concealing a full size USP-T today.

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Exactly

Horse with No Name said:

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Ironically, the counter guy's comment was something akin to, "accuracy wont matter much at defensive distances."

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I tend to agree, can't imagine many, if any, scenarios where I would engage someone beyond 10yds. JMO

Just keep packing the 3" you're used to

I'm just as accurate with my super small XDS as I am with my G19. For me, weight and length are less of an issue carrying that the shape of the grip and the finish. I've found my XDS irritates my skin so a G27 is more comfortable

ntxVOL said:

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Horse with No Name said:

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Ironically, the counter guy's comment was something akin to, "accuracy wont matter much at defensive distances."

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I tend to agree, can't imagine many, if any, scenarios where I would engage someone beyond 10yds. JMO

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I tend to disagree that accuracy is not important for a carry gun, for several reasons.

The TL;DR version:

1) Pistols suck at stopping people.
2) The areas of the human body you need to hit with a pistol round to stop them are small
3) Most people suck at shooting pistols
4) Those good at shooting on a static range probably still suck under pressure against a moving target
5) Refer to 1 and 2 with 4 in mind.

Now to Tolstoy it a bit:

Pistol rounds are not great people stoppers. The only reason pistols are so popular is they're a hell of a lot easier to carry around and conceal than a rifle or a shotgun. If it wasn't for that, no one would use pistols because they're not great man stoppers.

Part of the reason they're not great at stopping people is that we tend to have bodies designed to protect the important stuff. Our heart and brain are not super easy targets to hit, and those are the only things you can rely on stopping someone determined to do harm by destroying/damaging severely.

Most people aren't good pistol shooters. This is a standard B-27 target. You qualify for your CHL with it, it's the top selling target at any gun range, etc. The scoring box on the B-27 from the 7 ring in is ~15" wide by 23" tall. Even if you take it down to the 9 ring, you're still looking at a target ~8" wide by 11" tall.



That's a pretty big target, but a lot of people (I'd argue the majority) who carry and have a CHL can't reliably stay inside the 9 ring every shot, even at 10 yards. And that's with a static target at a known distance with no time or stress pressure on the shooter.

This is an FBI qualification target, the QIT-99:



I bring this target up because it very specifically highlights those small areas I was talking about earlier you would need to hit to reliably stop someone with a pistol. The box in the head is 3" by 3", and the box in the torso is 4" by 6.5".

So we have small areas of the human body that we need to be able to hit to stop someone that is attacking us. Unfortunately for us, they won't stand there nice and pretty like a target will, so now we have small boxes we need to make hits on against a moving target, with our stress levels through the roof, likely on the move ourselves as well.

For those who have never fired under any kind of time/stress pressure, it does one thing to your accuracy (especially if you're not used to it): makes it worse. If you're not used to shooting under pressure, it makes your accuracy MUCH worse. Top it all off with the fact that pistols require so little error in sight alignment or trigger pressure to result in a miss, and you've got a tough hill to climb made tougher if you chose something harder to shoot accurately.

So knowing that we have a small, moving target to hit if someone is trying to hurt us to stop them from doing that, and that our accuracy will be less than it would be under ideal conditions....would you be interested in using a more accurate pistol or a less accurate pistol, even if that fight is under 10 yards?

She said 4" is better than 3" just saying!

All good points but I am still not sure how accuracy matters for the average person carrying concealed. I threw out 10yds but, I think by far most self defense uses are more up close and personal. Things like sight radius aren't going to matter at less than 7yds. So I try to practice point shooting at multiple targets at those closer distances.

Do you think an average person who has never even pointed a gun at someone, much less shot at a person, is even going to see the sights when they take that first shot?

I've always heard and read that most self defense shootings happen within 3 yards, but that certainly stop me from practicing at longer distances. Why not give yourself every advantage you can?

I'm about 6'1", 230. I wear suits or sport coats most days. I currently have a Keltec PF 9, a full-size XD 9 mm, and a 44 mag with the shoulder rig dubbed hidden thunder. I have carried the XD nine concealed in the Celtic concealed, but never the 10 inch 44.

For me, the most important thing is concealability. I think everyone agrees that grip height is the most important spec in regards to concealment. Barrel length isn't really relavent once you leave the range for most use cases. That was the point I was trying to make. If I am looking at a gun for concealment, everything else being equal, I would lean toward the smaller option. The 4 inch barrel may provide more accuracy at the range but does that really matter?

IMO it does not, but if it makes you feel more confident well, I can't argue with that.

any recs on iwb holsters for the g19?

I use alien gear and it's pretty good

I can group a BOdyguard .380 just as tight as my service model .40 xD. Real world I would say use whatever conceals more comfortably. Not sure what gunfghit you will ever get in where longer sight radius will matter.

BenderRodriguez said:

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ntxVOL said:

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Horse with No Name said:

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Ironically, the counter guy's comment was something akin to, "accuracy wont matter much at defensive distances."

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I tend to agree, can't imagine many, if any, scenarios where I would engage someone beyond 10yds. JMO

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I tend to disagree that accuracy is not important for a carry gun, for several reasons.

The TL;DR version:

1) Pistols suck at stopping people.
2) The areas of the human body you need to hit with a pistol round to stop them are small
3) Most people suck at shooting pistols
4) Those good at shooting on a static range probably still suck under pressure against a moving target
5) Refer to 1 and 2 with 4 in mind.

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So you are freely admitting that even if you are good, it won't matter under pressure. Therefore having an extra inch won't make enough of a difference for most people, they will still suck under pressure. So I'll suggest whatever is most comfortable.

Too many variables in defensive situations to put that much stock into 1" of barrel. If it's comfortable to carry a 4" go for it, if not go for a 3" and it won't make much difference in the off chance you really need to use it.

BenderRodriguez said:

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ntxVOL said:

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Horse with No Name said:

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Ironically, the counter guy's comment was something akin to, "accuracy wont matter much at defensive distances."

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I tend to agree, can't imagine many, if any, scenarios where I would engage someone beyond 10yds. JMO

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I tend to disagree that accuracy is not important for a carry gun, for several reasons.

Most people aren't good pistol shooters. This is a standard B-27 target. You qualify for your CHL with it, it's the top selling target at any gun range, etc. The scoring box on the B-27 from the 7 ring in is ~15" wide by 23" tall. Even if you take it down to the 9 ring, you're still looking at a target ~8" wide by 11" tall.



That's a pretty big target, but a lot of people (I'd argue the majority) who carry and have a CHL can't reliably stay inside the 9 ring every shot, even at 10 yards. And that's with a static target at a known distance with no time or stress pressure on the shooter.

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Here is my target from my CHL qualification.



2 shots outside of the 9 ring. While I agree this isn't "most" people, there are still variables that you are ignoring in your rant that have a big impact.

Let's be real, how many situations that were caught on video in the last few years have supported needing to hit these small areas to neutralize the situation? Hell, there have been several women in videos in the last couple of months that have completely missed and neutralized the situation.

I would argue all day that carrying something comfortable is 100x better than not carrying, and it's only marginally better to carry something more accurate so you can get a couple of inches closer to the kill zone.

texags08 said:

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So you are freely admitting that even if you are good, it won't matter under pressure. Therefore having an extra inch won't make enough of a difference for most people, they will still suck under pressure. So I'll suggest whatever is most comfortable.

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No, that's not what I'm saying.

Everyone's accuracy will degrade under pressure. How badly it does so depends on your experience level shooting under pressure, and the capability of your equipment.

The big issue you have as you get smaller and smaller is sight deflection. A shorter radius between your front and rear sight make it harder to detect misaligned sights, and the same amount of misalignment with both a long and short sight radius will also produce a bigger miss from the sights with the shorter radii. So you have sights that are harder to detect alignment errors with, that produce bigger misses if misaligned.

Which is why a longer sight radius is better than a short one.

texags08 said:

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I would argue all day that carrying something comfortable is 100x better than not carrying, and it's only marginally better to carry something more accurate so you can get a couple of inches closer to the kill zone.

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Who are you arguing with here exactly?

I didn't say "carry a big gun or carry nothing", I said if you could carry either an XDs with a 3" or a 4" barrel, I'd prefer the 4" barrel, for the reasons I spelled out.

ntxVOL said:

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Do you think an average person who has never even pointed a gun at someone, much less shot at a person, is even going to see the sights when they take that first shot?

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That depends on their level of training.

I've tried the "point shooting" thing. IMO and based on the shooting I do, even at 3 yards taking the minimal time required to get even a "flash" sight picture results in better hits and is worth doing instead.

Accuracy doesn't matter less at close distances against moving targets, it matters more, especially if you're in public and every round fired comes with a lawyer attached and you don't want to miss.

YMMV, but that's where I'm coming at this from, and why I try to carry the biggest gun I possibly can.

texags08 said:

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BenderRodriguez said:

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ntxVOL said:

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Horse with No Name said:

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Ironically, the counter guy's comment was something akin to, "accuracy wont matter much at defensive distances."

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I tend to agree, can't imagine many, if any, scenarios where I would engage someone beyond 10yds. JMO

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I tend to disagree that accuracy is not important for a carry gun, for several reasons.

Most people aren't good pistol shooters. This is a standard B-27 target. You qualify for your CHL with it, it's the top selling target at any gun range, etc. The scoring box on the B-27 from the 7 ring in is ~15" wide by 23" tall. Even if you take it down to the 9 ring, you're still looking at a target ~8" wide by 11" tall.



That's a pretty big target, but a lot of people (I'd argue the majority) who carry and have a CHL can't reliably stay inside the 9 ring every shot, even at 10 yards. And that's with a static target at a known distance with no time or stress pressure on the shooter.

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Here is my target from my CHL qualification.



2 shots outside of the 9 ring. While I agree this isn't "most" people, there are still variables that you are ignoring in your rant that have a big impact.

Let's be real, how many situations that were caught on video in the last few years have supported needing to hit these small areas to neutralize the situation? Hell, there have been several women in videos in the last couple of months that have completely missed and neutralized the situation.

I would argue all day that carrying something comfortable is 100x better than not carrying, and it's only marginally better to carry something more accurate so you can get a couple of inches closer to the kill zone.

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Here was my CHL qualification Target.



I'll definitely agree with Bender though that most will not shot well under pressure unless practiced. The CHL qual had tons of time if you stop and realize how much time there really is. I knew that going in, didn't rush and shot that kind of target.

I know my accuracy goes down hill fast under pressure. I didn't realize how bad until I started doing some of the shooting drills suggested on here. Trying to intrude stress while shooting really changed things and is definitely worthwhile.

Bender is 100% correct on this thread, on all points. You guys should be listening to what he is saying this is standard, accepted modern training practice and teaching by anyone that has a clue. Bravo, buddy.

Don't try to rationalize away a lack of ability to perform, or perform under pressure, with "I won't need to be able to do that" - that can be a deadly mistake with dire consequences for you and your family. You don't know what situation you are going to find yourself in, so prepare yourself to be able to be successful in the largest percentage of outcomes. Tom Givens, head of Rangemaster, has taught thousands of students, and has analyzed all the shootings they have been involved in that he is aware of. Out of 60+ student shootings that he knows about, only a few of them were farther than 7 yards (a few at 15, and one at 22 yards). Smaller guns with shorter sight radiuses and long, heavy trigger pulls are not conducive to accurate fire at those distances. A pocket gun is easier to carry, but you should always carry the most gun you can accommodate for your situation. If you can't pass an objective standard such as the 3 Second or Less drill with the gun you carry, you need to find a more effective option. You must be able to deliver timely hits, in an anatomically effective area. There is no such thing as a miss, only unintended hits, and you will be legally and financially responsible for every single one of them.

Finally, whoever said they aren't going to use the sights under pressure, that's complete bullsh** and that's been proven time and time again. Train yourself to always bring the gun to eye level and use your sights, and that's exactly what you will do. Again, proven in over 60+ student-involved shootings from Tom Givens/Rangemaster-instructed students.

Dave Reichek
KR Training Assistant Instructor
Rangemaster certified Advanced Instructor

ntxVOL said:

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All good points but I am still not sure how accuracy matters for the average person carrying concealed. I threw out 10yds but, I think by far most self defense uses are more up close and personal. Things like sight radius aren't going to matter at less than 7yds. So I try to practice point shooting at multiple targets at those closer distances.

Do you think an average person who has never even pointed a gun at someone, much less shot at a person, is even going to see the sights when they take that first shot?

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I have drawn and aimed my carry pistol at a human exactly one time. I distinctly remember the red of the fiber optic front sight being lit up by the street light against a white shirt.

As Bender and others have already said, your performance will likely degrade. Up to you if you want to go downhill from being good or downhill from ****ty.

Well, it seems many here disagree with my assertions and that's fine. I don't claim to be an expert by any means but I do feel that my accuracy is good enough with the smaller weapons I normally carry. My primary issue with most CCW weapons is the shorter height makes it harder to draw with a good grip right out of the holster.

The G19 has been on my wish list for a while, I guess I am going to have to pull the trigger and get one. I don't have anything, at the moment, with a 4 inch barrel to really compare with.

Dave - thanks for the post. I've taken courses from KR and Bender - he's also an instructor - had a great lesson with him and one other OB poster a month or so ago. You both teach very similar fundamentals, thanks for positing and hanging out on the board. I need to come over and take another class, hope The KR guys (and gals) are doing well.

I carry a G19X in a Safariland paddle holster.
Typically wear a tee shirt then another shirt untucked over that. I've also carried full size .45s like this.
Never had any issues doing this
Doesn't hide nothin' but we are Texans and have it good.

Clint Smith is fond of saying that a Handgun should be Comforting, not Comfortable.

There are multiple levels of meaning in that statement.

ntxVOL said:

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For me, the most important thing is concealability. I think everyone agrees that grip height is the most important spec in regards to concealment. Barrel length isn't really relavent once you leave the range for most use cases. That was the point I was trying to make. If I am looking at a gun for concealment, everything else being equal, I would lean toward the smaller option. The 4 inch barrel may provide more accuracy at the range but does that really matter?.

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As you pointed out, grip length has more to do with concealment than barrel length. So again, assuming grip length remains the same, why not give yourself every advantage you can? If you're carrying IWB then a 3" or 6" barrel are both gonna conceal the same if they have the same grip, except the longer barrel will provide more bullet speed and better accuracy if you do need to take a longer shot.

When I first started carrying it was all about concealment. Once I started taking training classes it became all about what I shoot the best. Now, like Bender, I try to carry the largest gun I can effectively conceal (which kinda goes back and forth between a G17 and a G34) and I dress around it.