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Is catch-and-release less emphasized with salt water fishing?

8,200 Views | 74 Replies | Last: 6 yr ago by Kurt Gowdy
ConstructionAg01
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10:41p, 8/16/17
AG
Count me as one who doesn't remember ever tasting bass, but I'll keep and eat every legal crappie, slot red, slot trout, and most catfish I can. And we will eat three year old frozen filets before they'd ever go in the trash. In the summer we probably fry or grill fish once a week. If it tastes good we eat it, otherwise they're just fun to catch then go back in the drink.

"Then God said, "Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures..."
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FishingAggie
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In reply to elnaco • 11:41p, 8/16/17
elnaco said:
FishingAggie said:


I don't care what that study says. Just like economics. You can find the numbers you want, just get another economists to run them.

I've fished on the coast my whole life. Hardly ever fish freshwater.

So according to you, with some angling skill the fish are unharmed. I agree with that to some extent.
Here's the flaw..... how many times does the average person fish on the coast? 2-3 times a year? Does that make a person skilled? No it doesn't.

The average person doesn't have the skill to keep from gut hooking fish. Especially with shrimp. Why do you think most guides never let you fish for trout once you get your limit? It's to protect their livelihood. Ask one.

Small trout will eat anything. They swallow it deep way too many times. If you actually believe whatever's in that study, you haven't caught many trout.


As for keeping fish. That's your choice. I love fish. Keep what you'll eat or want to. It's a personal thing that no one should feel uncomfortable either way as long as it's legal

Yeah it's just like economics, except its a scientific publication... specifically on spotted seatrout....in Texas....performed by our good friends down at Texas A&M Corpus Christi...using that pesky scientific method. I've read it and used my own logic, judgement and experience and have decided it is credible. No offense, but I take it as more credible than the anecdotal evidence and speculation you provided. But I'm just trying to provide some hard evidence of actual mortality rates of trout in Texas is all. If you read the study you'll see they address things like angler experience and methods of fishing.

I can agree with you that certain methods and rigging will up the chances of gut hooking a trout (again they touch on it in the paper). Hell I even know of croaker guides who will tell their clients to wait until the second thump (i.e. the fish swallowing the bait) to set the hook. For those guides, yeah the mortality rate is probably much higher but they're a minority. I'm sure if an economist studied those guides they'd find a much higher mortality rate.

I can also agree that no matter who you are you're going to gut hook a fish every now and then, it's just part of the game. But even when I'm fishing with inexperienced anglers, even kids, with shrimp under a popping cork and we're thick into the ninja trout, we don't gut hook that many trout. No where even close to the majority, so yeah I can believe what's in that paper. But I guess I don't know what I'm talking about bc I haven't caught many trout...
















Lol

Let me post some Picts showing I caught some fish. That proves my study is right. Dude. You've got 6 trout in half those Picts. You're either one over or 4 short. I don't know how to post Picts. I've gotta learn how to do that.
Omg. Thanks for the laugh.


Don't need to read a study. Did my own.

You're young. You'll learn.

I run around with guys who fish 225 days a year. Every year, for 20-30 years. Do the math on days on the water. They fish more in a month than you fish in years.

I learned from them. Not books or articles. I paid them to teach me and I'm sorry but I think these guys know more than your article. Why don't you call Jay Watkins? If you don't know who he is, sign off. He's THE man. I learned a lot from him. Still my friend but I don't wade much anymore.

Fish with him. He only wades. Ask him about trout survival. Funny thing. He'll switch over to reds after you get your trout. All good guides do.

You are right. The perfect fisherman, handling fish the perfect way,releasing them perfectly, will give the trout a good chance. Unfortunately, most saltwater guys and gals aren't perfect. They use shrimp and croaker to help them catch fish. Jay only uses lures. Yes. He releases fish that survive.

Live bait fisherman kill a LOT of trout. Your study even states the fish survive with proper care. Lol

you are obviously an expert fisherman from you picture. Unfortunately, most folks use live bait and don't know all the proper techniques to release fish. The best way to keep trout alive is simply catch your limit and go to reds. That's it.

Stop reading and go hire someone who knows more than you. Learn. One trip with a quality guy will teach you more than you'll ever read. When it comes to fishing....reading sucks. Gotta do it.

By the way. No one calls them spotted sea trout. It's just trout. Red drum=redfish. Black drum = drum or stripers. Flounder = flattys. Sheepshead= goats( no one really cares though). whats a ninja trout? No one knows down here





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Courtesy Flush
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12:28a, 8/17/17
AG
One reason is that a bass tastes like **** compared to a specked trout or redfish.
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tx4guns
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In reply to AggieGunslinger • 12:39a, 8/17/17
AG
Did somebody say meat haul?



AggieGunslinger said:
F'n A, a good ole fashioned OB dick measuring contest. IN
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Ag_of_08
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In reply to Russ11 • 2:30a, 8/17/17
AG
Russ11 said:
It is something that is really starting to pick up here in the recent years; especially with the higher pressure and seemingly lesser fish populations as compared to past "golden years".


Funny, redfish populations just a few miles west ( your in swla right) are way up, and trout are thick.


I catch and release if I'm just piddling, but saltwater fish are good eating and larger
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Salt of the water
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In reply to FishingAggie • 6:50a, 8/17/17
AG
So you said that any guide that lets you catch and release trout should get his license pulled. That's quite the load right there what about all those guides that will stay on a school of mixed undersized and 15 and 16 inch fish? Pull their license because they caught and released all those small fish, trying to get their clients a limit?

Your central argument is that guides stop fishing for trout and go chase redfish after boxing a limit because trout can't handle catch and release. I just say that's good guiding why keep catching schoolie trout (which aren't very sporting) when there are other more entertaining (and retainable) fish they could go chase. They may also not want to wear out a school/reef holding fish, so they can come back and hit 'em the next day. Lot's of reasons to stop catching dinks after you have a limit that aren't due to mortality.

There's some truth in the saying that 10% of the fisherman catch 90% of the fish, it ain't exact science, but I'd say there's definite validity in the notion. It's very likely that those 10% of the fisherman know what their doing and can release a trout with low mortality rate.

Fishing for dink trout just doesn't rustle my jimmies so I chose not to do it regularly, but occasionally I'll take a rookie out with some gulp under a cork. That study says mortality is about 1 in 10, and that sounds about right to me. They do note that it jumps up to 1 in 5 with unexperienced anglers, but if you or a guide has an unexperienced angler in the boat, you should be helping them release better.
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Russ11
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In reply to Ag_of_08 • 7:13a, 8/17/17
AG
No sir must be somebody else; middle Texas coast for me
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AggieChemist
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7:31a, 8/17/17
AG
I JUST CAME HERE TO DRINK BEER AND POST PICTS

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ought1ag
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7:33a, 8/17/17
AG
we've kept, cleaned and chowed down on 902 catfish out of choke this year........just a tad shy of my goal of 1000. Now its too close to Hunting season and I need to focus on that.

But for the record we would release anything over 15-20 pounds.
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AggieChemist
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7:35a, 8/17/17
AG
And you guys need to stop referring to drum as trout.
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Lonestar06
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8:20a, 8/17/17
Im still learning when it come to saltwater fishing but if I catch something legal I will keep it. Most of what I catch comes from the jetties ( sheepshead, black drum, and Spanish mackerel ). I struggle in the bays but hope I can figure it out soon. I've caught some reds but trout elude me for some reason. Most of my fishing is freshwater ( catfish, and crappie ) but I will keep a bass if I catch one. I've never understood fishing all day for five bass just to release them. For me personally it seems like poor management to release every bass just to have them over populate. I was raised eating bass and don't mind keeping a few. I'm headed to Corpus this weekend to put the kayaks in and learn the bays a little more. If anyone is interested you are more than welcome to join me.
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CactusThomas
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8:26a, 8/17/17
AG
Can't we just start over and have a good old fashioned mono vs braid e-fight?
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tx4guns
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In reply to AggieChemist • 8:30a, 8/17/17
AG
Weakfish, sir. Weakfish.
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Tx95Ag
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In reply to CactusThomas • 8:44a, 8/17/17
AG
CactusThomas said:
Can't we just start over and have a good old fashioned mono vs braid e-fight?

What would be the point, since mono is clearly better in every aspect?
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up-n-aTm
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8:46a, 8/17/17
AG
I'm a fish snob. I fish at least once a week as I live on the coast and have a cabin in Baffin Bay. I rarely keep fish and when I do, they will not be frozen. Ever. If I can't eat them that night or maybe the following night, I'm not keeping them. Fresh fish is 10x better than frozen.
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RickSawyer
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In reply to up-n-aTm • 8:54a, 8/17/17
AG
up-n-aTm said:
I'm a fish snob. I fish at least once a week as I live on the coast and have a cabin in Baffin Bay. I rarely keep fish and when I do, they will not be frozen. Ever. If I can't eat them that night or maybe the following night, I'm not keeping them. Fresh fish is 10x better than frozen.
This seems like the sentiment of most of us that fish on a more regular basis.
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DallasAggies01
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In reply to up-n-aTm • 9:02a, 8/17/17
AG
up-n-aTm said:
I'm a fish snob. I fish at least once a week as I live on the coast and have a cabin in Baffin Bay. I rarely keep fish and when I do, they will not be frozen. Ever. If I can't eat them that night or maybe the following night, I'm not keeping them. Fresh fish is 10x better than frozen.


I pretty much stick to this too. What sucks is here lately at our place in Sargent we seem to catch most of the keepers on our last morning.
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elnaco
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In reply to FishingAggie • 9:14a, 8/17/17
AG
FishingAggie said:



Lol

Let me post some Picts showing I caught some fish. That proves my study is right. Dude. You've got 6 trout in half those Picts. You're either one over or 4 short. I don't know how to post Picts. I've gotta learn how to do that.
Omg. Thanks for the laugh.


Don't need to read a study. Did my own.

You're young. You'll learn.

I run around with guys who fish 225 days a year. Every year, for 20-30 years. Do the math on days on the water. They fish more in a month than you fish in years.

I learned from them. Not books or articles. I paid them to teach me and I'm sorry but I think these guys know more than your article. Why don't you call Jay Watkins? If you don't know who he is, sign off. He's THE man. I learned a lot from him. Still my friend but I don't wade much anymore.

Fish with him. He only wades. Ask him about trout survival. Funny thing. He'll switch over to reds after you get your trout. All good guides do.

You are right. The perfect fisherman, handling fish the perfect way,releasing them perfectly, will give the trout a good chance. Unfortunately, most saltwater guys and gals aren't perfect. They use shrimp and croaker to help them catch fish. Jay only uses lures. Yes. He releases fish that survive.

Live bait fisherman kill a LOT of trout. Your study even states the fish survive with proper care. Lol

you are obviously an expert fisherman from you picture. Unfortunately, most folks use live bait and don't know all the proper techniques to release fish. The best way to keep trout alive is simply catch your limit and go to reds. That's it.

Stop reading and go hire someone who knows more than you. Learn. One trip with a quality guy will teach you more than you'll ever read. When it comes to fishing....reading sucks. Gotta do it.

By the way. No one calls them spotted sea trout. It's just trout. Red drum=redfish. Black drum = drum or stripers. Flounder = flattys. Sheepshead= goats( no one really cares though). whats a ninja trout? No one knows down here
Oye this discussion has gone off the rails fast. From this post it's clear that you haven't and probably won't actually read the paper so I'll just post some of the highlights here:

-479 spotted seatrout (using this nomenclature to differentiate from the freshwater trout also being discussed in this thread) were caught by various methods on hook and line by recreational fishermen, the overall mortality rate was 19%.
-Another 1,373 trout caught with bait and lures were studied from live release tournaments with an overall mortality rate of 23%. Caveat to this is the stress put on the fish from being put in livewells.

Further reading into it shows, if you hook a trout in the gills or esophogus it's probably going to die (surprise, surprise), but overall they have a high rate of survival (81% avg by recreational fishermen), which contradicts your original statement. Further reading into that study shows recreational fisherman really don't gut hook that many fish. Again, this also adds up with what I've experienced. Sure one of the side findings was handling can play into the mortality rate, but that's no surprise and wasn't the purpose of the study.

Just because guides take you to fish for redfish after you've caught your limit of trout so they can round out your limit and get you off of their boat doesn't mean they don't believe in catch and release. If they didn't then why do a lot of the big name guides (I'm not going to name drop) on the coast offer discounts for catch and release trips? I'm almost positive your fishing god Jay also at least used to offer that as well and I don't need to ask him about survival bc unless things have changed since the last time I caught up with him, which has admittedly been awhile, the dude releases a ton of trout.

No, reading doesn't qualify you as a good fisherman, just like running around with guys "who fish 225 days a year. Every year, for 20-30 years." doesn't make you a good fisherman. I'll agree, time on the water is where you learn and I've put plenty of time on the water fishing from Port Isabel to the Chandeleur Islands and pretty much everywhere in between. I've fished with a lot of good guides along the way who have taught me a lot of things, but I guess I'm just more analytical and have always wanted to know more of the why than most guides will teach you. Sure a guide might tell you something like "we're fishing this shoreline bc the wind is blowing bait against it and there's a grass line here where they'll wait to ambush" That's great and all but I wanted to know why they were there during that time of year or tide or why they were feeding on that particular bait, etc. Reading scientific articles about the life cycle of predator and prey helps me to put some to put some of the why pieces together and without a doubt helps me to be a better fisherman. I don't have to pay some guide to help me figure that out. If I tried to get all of my education from fishing guides, I'd probably still believe that trout ate croaker bc croaker eat their eggs.
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dellgriffith
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9:22a, 8/17/17
AG
I like to feed the porpoises with the trout I catch. The kids get a big kick out of that!
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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jswags
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In reply to dellgriffith • 9:27a, 8/17/17
AG
Is this before or after you gut hook them?!

Good lord. Who cares what people do with the fish if they aren't keeping more than their limit?
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elnaco
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In reply to jswags • 9:34a, 8/17/17
AG
For the record I really don't care what people do within their legal bag limits and I gave my opinion on if C&R is less emphasized in saltwater fishing. Apologies for hijacking the thread.

That being said, dellgriffith, assuming you're in Texas you feed your trout to dolphins, there's no porpoises in Texas.

Also, why are we talking about mono vs braid when we know fluorocarbon is superior.
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CactusThomas
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In reply to elnaco • 9:42a, 8/17/17
AG
elnaco said:

Also, why are we talking about mono vs braid when we know fluorocarbon is superior.










Guys, should we tell him?
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dellgriffith
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9:46a, 8/17/17
AG
Was joking about the porpoises/dolphins but did watch my guide do it with a gut hooked trout we caught and it was awesome.

In Colorado we need to be taking more trout out of the waters, in my opinion. There is too much competition for food which is impeding the growth to trophy trout.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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Finn Maccumhail
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In reply to jswags • 9:54a, 8/17/17
AG
jswags said:
Is this before or after you gut hook them?!

Good lord. Who cares what people do with the fish if they aren't keeping more than their limit?

Waste of the resource? Perhaps we should strive to be good stewards of the resource.

As the man says, if we don't leave any there won't be any.
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lazuras_dc
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10:05a, 8/17/17
AG
I'll bite....

So it looks like you two are arguing if the majority of trout die after being caught and released (lets talk about speckled trout/spotted sea trout/trout - since i have no experience with freshwater). According to the study- you're saying bait fisherman killed 17% more trout. I'd say that is significant if you think about the thousands of fisherman up and down the coast.

I will say this though... when I catch a trout I always wet my hand as not to disturb the slime/scales the least as possible. Same thing to measure it out- wet the deck or ruler or cooler or check it stick. Then release gently into the water, give it a minute if it needs and move it through the water to get the gills re-oxygenated and side to side release any lactic acid build up from the fight.

From anecdotal evidence, bait hooks are harder to remove, even from the mouth than a single jig/lure hook. I always end up applying more pressure on the fish to remove the hook or have to use pliers. Does the study talk about percentage of fish that swallow lure vs. bait? (obv I didn't read)

Also, most guides, or trips using bait and meat hauling are usually* for novice fisherman. The ones who don't know how to handle the trout properly after being caught. I cringe a lot when I take a new person fishing and see them mis-handle a trout. Just grabbing the hell out of it, with dry hands or throwing it on a dry check it stick to find its 1/2 an inch short and just tossing back into the water.

My point is you guys are both right. If handled properly the kill rate should be less and some are unavoidable but that shouldnt keep us from enjoying the sport.

Also, I'm not in anyway poo poo'ing bait fisherman because I use bait too, but my passion is lures and wading.

Side note: I think the discount for catch and release w/ guides is 2 fold - 1) conservation and 2)the guide doesnt have to sit there and fillet 20+ fish after the trip haha
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Funky Winkerbean
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10:53a, 8/17/17
AG
I generally release trout over 20" and keep the 15-16". I don't catch a ton of redfish but if I do, I'll keep it as grilled redfish is my daughters favorite. As far as what others do, don't really care as long as its legal.

I would like to see the limit on trout changed to the first 5 you catch, regardless of size. I think this would motivate guides to use shrimp instead of croakers, thus preserving more trout over 20".
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Courtesy Flush
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In reply to dellgriffith • 11:05a, 8/17/17
AG
dellgriffith said:
I like to feed the porpoises with the trout I catch. The kids get a big kick out of that!
Are you not in Texas?
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LRHF
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11:21a, 8/17/17
AG
I love fluorocarbon as well but stick with mono when fishing dry flies. LRHF out!
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elnaco
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11:22a, 8/17/17
AG
Quote:
I'll bite....

So it looks like you two are arguing if the majority of trout die after being caught and released (lets talk about speckled trout/spotted sea trout/trout - since i have no experience with freshwater). According to the study- you're saying bait fisherman killed 17% more trout. I'd say that is significant if you think about the thousands of fisherman up and down the coast.

I will say this though... when I catch a trout I always wet my hand as not to disturb the slime/scales the least as possible. Same thing to measure it out- wet the deck or ruler or cooler or check it stick. Then release gently into the water, give it a minute if it needs and move it through the water to get the gills re-oxygenated and side to side release any lactic acid build up from the fight.

From anecdotal evidence, bait hooks are harder to remove, even from the mouth than a single jig/lure hook. I always end up applying more pressure on the fish to remove the hook or have to use pliers. Does the study talk about percentage of fish that swallow lure vs. bait? (obv I didn't read)
I'm not sure where you're getting the 17% more figure from, not arguing just not sure where it's coming from. All I was trying to say initially was trout are tougher than most people probably think. I used to have the mentality that they died very easily even if hooked in the mouth but from my experience and from reading that study I know that's not the case.

So I need to correct myself. I admit, it'd been awhile since I'd read it but that particular study does not give specific statistics on throat or gill hooked in relation to bait or lures. For the first part of the study (the ~489 fish) they caught those with lures. For the tournament fish it doesn't specify lure vs bait, but at least some of the tournaments listed have artificial only categories, but I'm unsure what they were doing during that time frame. It does point to other studies that do consider live bait mortality rates but states that results are variable based on rigging/ hook type used. Which also makes sense bc as you said certain hooks are harder to remove which lead to more handling and stress which lead to higher mortality rates. I'm not sure if those studies address percentages of hook locations for live bait but I could speculate with confidence it is higher than with lures. As I said, I know of croaker guides who tell clients to wait until the trout swallows the bait to set the hook. For those guys mortality rate is probably 100% but then again their intention isn't to release the fish. I honestly don't even know what FishingAggie and I are even arguing about anymore. We might even be in agreement on things, but somehow Jay Watkins came into the mix and reading sucks and I need to fish with guides in order to learn about release survival rates over reading scientific papers published by biologists who dedicate their lives to this kind of stuff??? I'll admit I probably fueled the fire by my Flor de Cana sponsored post last night but if anything our discussion probably just goes to show the problem with anecdotal evidence.

Keep doing what you're doing and doing your due diligence in handling trout and really all fish for that matter if you intend on releasing it.
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lazuras_dc
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12:39p, 8/17/17
AG
17% increase came from your figures of 23% death with bait after release and 19% death with lures after release. Unless I read it wrong.

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FishingAggie
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12:49p, 8/17/17
So let's do some basic math.

Just guides in the cc, rockport and port aransas triangle.

There's at least 500. That's way low. You can google it and find out but it's low.

Most of them. Almost all of them are bait fisherman as the customers aren't skilled enough to use artificials.
Let's say they are all scrubs and run 150 trips a year. Even a weekend guide can do that with a few trips in the summer

That's 75000 trips. Let's say they average 10 trout per trip. That's only two people per trip.

That's 750,000 trout kept. Now if the kill rate is 10% on trout killed (too small to keep while catching your limit - majority of guided trips want to keep all their fish). We lose 75000 fish on nothing but guided trips.

These are all very, very low numbers. These trout aren't fingerlings. These are 12-14 7/8 inch trout.

Now add in the recreational fisherman numbers.

Those are conservative numbers. We have a lot of trout here, but we also have a ton of fisherman. It's getting worse and worse each year i.e. the lower limits. Guides are catching trout so fast they have to go kill drum or reds now to please customers. Killing more species of fish than before. It's a big reason for the number of guides going after drum.

Treble hooks with shrimp kill a huge % higher than 10%. Especially small trout. Even a tourist can catch fish without a treble hook. This is info I get from the guys I fish with. I'm not quoting me, I'm quoting fishing guides. They hate treble hooks.

I fish a lot myself and use guides about 10 days a year. They're my friends and we trade out work sometimes. These subjects come up a lot. These are guides that fish 225 days a year minimum. Not the scrubs. I'm not bragging I'm explaining my info is from guys making a living who know more than a nerd scientists doing one study. These guys have thousands of days on the water catching fish. I believe them.

Personally, if I catch a trout and it's going to survive, I let it go. I keep the fish that won't survive. When I get to 5 I quit. That's the way these guys taught me to fish over 20 years. It works for me. Then I go red fish.

Reds are much tougher. I've released 70 in a day before , especially when it's cooler, and they all survived. That's the fish to catch and release.

The above info is real life stuff. I personally like that better than stats. Again. I get zero credit for this info. This is from professionals making a living fishing. I'm just passing it on.

I will add that the fly fisherman are the most conservative fisherman as a group. The guides love them( when they aren't in the way lol). They take great care to release fish and use barbless hooks a lot of times. Good guys.


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lazuras_dc
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3:12p, 8/17/17
AG
Im with you, If i'm nitpicking just to start an argument I think the math may be misleading here
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That's 750,000 trout kept. Now if the kill rate is 10% on trout killed (too small to keep while catching your limit - majority of guided trips want to keep all their fish). We lose 75000 fish on nothing but guided trips.


Youre taking a 10% kill on the total number kept not released. If guides average 10 kept trout per trip (which i think is a fair avg because some guides will have 4 and keep a limit of 20 (or 40 up north). some guides won't catch a limit sometimes, sometimes skunked!)

A more realistic number is to take the 10% on trout released on an average trip... maybe its 10 too? I don't know that number.

Regardless... crazy to think 750k trout going to freezers from guided trips alone !
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FishingAggie
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3:55p, 8/17/17
I can't say for sure on that. It's a guess but I've had a ton of days where I caught two little fish to keep one.

Plus the numbers are way low. Don't include recreational fishermen ( who I think catch many more small fish as they often use shrimp ).

Honestly, I'd bet the number caught and released is equal or greater than the number caught the more I think about it. Those fish grow really fast. The lower limits are producing lots of fish. I think we are in a good place. Just don't need any freezes.

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gwellis
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7:44p, 8/17/17
AG
We generally release all Specks over 24" but keep the small ones that are legal. Call me crazy, but that is what I grew up doing. If it was a trophy to you and you were going to have it mounted, then we would keep it, but with the advent of technology and a few good pictures and measurements you can release all the big ones.

Gil '91
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shiftyandquick
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In reply to AggieChemist • 8:27p, 8/17/17
AggieChemist said:
And you guys need to stop referring to drum as trout.
It's actually "spotted weakfish"
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