We had a chocolate lab female. Great hunter? Definitely. Health? About as bad as it can get. She didn't even make it to 7 years old.

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No feelings hurt here at all. Just wanted to point out that a DVM, like a general MD, is not a geneticist unless specifically trained in that area. As such they can offer an opinion regarding breeding issues but they are pretty much on the same playing field as someone with a BS degree with a basic understanding of the subject. The DVM is simply giving his opinion here and I am giving mine.

And in time some other choc owners will likely chime in with their opinion.

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Ok, I was going to ignore the original post but since you've followed up and doubled down on your original post, I'll play.....

1) I apologize to you AquaAg if my term "grade A doofus" offended your love/respect for chocolate Labs, I'm sure your Lab was terrific. If you've been on the OB long you'll know I'm about as easy going as they come, a 100% red-blooded American and Texas patriot, I do my best each day to live my life exhibiting Christ's traits, and I certainly have no interest in picking a fight on an Aggie outdoor message board, two groups of folks for whom I have a ton of love and respect for. Please read my post again. I stated that I've cared for two wonderful chocolates, and that the majority of the rest (not all) were doofuses. As CanyonAg followed up, the "lovable doofus" trait isn't a derogatory comment. Simply a known fact based on the clinical experience working with thousands of labs in a clinical setting (a fairly robust sample size). Chocolates can just be different, which is what prompted my post.

2) The problem with making assumptions about posters you don't know personally is that you don't truly know the poster you are characterizing. For the record, you bet I'm a DVM. It was my first post-batchelor's degree and I'm proud as can be I'm an Aggie DVM. I'll preempt my next comment below and say that practicing high quality small animal medicine as a general practitioner is one of the toughest jobs in the entire veterinary profession. I have a ton of respect for the guys and gals (many on this board who lurk and occasionally post) who spend their lives in the trenches of general practice. They are expected to be highly knowledgeable in all aspects of small animal/exotic animal medicine and surgery, are expected to obtain all that knowledge in a 4 year post-batchelors program (which is impossible given the amount of information that is now known about the domestic species and their diseases), and are expected to continue to maintain and grow that expertise for decades after graduation. They are often managers, grief counselors, accountants, economic advisors, book keepers, advertising specialists, handymen, etc.... Most are DVMs in general practice because they love the profession, care deeply about dogs and cats, enjoy practicing medicine and serving animals and their owners without big insurance and big brother breathing down their necks (although that's changing), and most don't have any intention of getting rich in the process. While the vast majority of clients are wonderful, there is a growing group of the public that for some reason thinks that almost every small animal DVM is "the man" trying to stick it to them with un-necessary tests and over-inflated prices. I don't think that group of folks limits their aggression to veterinarians, it's a result of our cultural shift, decay of the civil society, etc. While I'm sure there are practices are out there that worship the dollar above all else, the VAST majority of DVMs are good people, smart as heck, and are doing their best to eek out an honest living in today's tough economy. You can tell I have a huge admiration for the general practitioner.

3) Unfortunately your assumption about this DVM not having genetics training was a poor judgement call. I did 8 years of additional school AFTER I graduated from vet school (12 years total after "college"). One of those stints of training was in graduate school where I obtained a PhD in molecular and cell biology. In those activities I cloned a ton of genes, performed site-directed mutagenesis (altering protein structure and function downstream of genes), used virus-mediated gene-therapy in cell-culture experiments, and generally obtained a knowledge of genetics slightly higher than a lay-person. I currently am a board-certified orthopedic surgeon and run a cell biology lab focused on the use of canine stem cells and tissue engineering in bone and joint disorders. We have a number of genetics-dependent projects, such as sequencing RNA to identify genes using computational models that are linked and that change together one way or another in response to certain orthopedic conditions like arthritis. So hopefully that should put to rest any questions about my knowledge of basic genetics, epigenetics, or knowledge of gene expression and how phenotypic traits such as behavior and coat color are determined.

4) My experience working with Labs is both clinical and personal. Clinically, I've worked with thousands of Labs over almost 20 years and OF COURSE they are all individuals, with terrific dogs spread across all shapes, sizes and colors. As I wrote in my original post, two of my favorite all time Labs are chocolates, so I hold no grudge against the color. However, as I stated (and I'll stick to my guns), the dogs that are most often the biggest knuckleheads (insert doofus) are the chocolates. Most (not all) of the aggressive Labs I've had to handle have been chocolates. The two aggression-induced human dog bites....chocolates. I also happen to be a huge wing-shooter. I've had a chance to hunt dove, ducks, geese, and quail over dozens of dogs of all three colors, some my own, some owned by friends and family. I've hunted over some good chocolates, but most of the dogs I have personally hunted over that exhibited the best combination of nose, instinct, drive, determination, and handling/manners are black/yellow.

Ok, that is all, manifesto completed, I won't post on this thread again. Please continue the discussion of the mysterious "silver" Lab, and enjoy!

Hell yes.

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Your comment about recessiveness regarding Dudley (what I assume you meant my Cajun roux) chocolates is also completely baseless as the exact same trait is present in yellows and is only NOT found in blacks. I'm pretty sure the only thing that is KNOWN this recesive trait does is provide color Confirmation for breeding.

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What was wrong with my comment (by the way I was referring to Dakota's Cajun Roux "Roux") ? He was probably the greatest trial chocolate ever and one of the greatest trial labs ever regardless of color. His bloodline has also been very successful. He's a great example of not all chocolates being sub par hunters. My comment was only that on average chocolates are far less consistent hunters

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No feelings hurt here at all. Just wanted to point out that a DVM, like a general MD, is not a geneticist unless specifically trained in that area. As such they can offer an opinion regarding breeding issues but they are pretty much on the same playing field as someone with a BS degree with a basic understanding of the subject.

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lets assume this is true. does take a 4 year degree to understand that if you breed for a recessive aesthetic trait, that some breeding for hunting quality may take a back seat and subsequently suffer? I'm not saying that chocolates arent great dogs overall or that they can't also be great hunters. I am saying that as a population, they are hit or miss on hunting ability when compared to black or yellow

Hey ooooo.

I have been around 4 or 5 serious chocolate labs with great pedigrees that are Master Hunter's.

I think my view is that if you are just purchasing a registered dog that you want to hunt with based on looks alone, Brown would be my (and many other people's) 3rd choice and silver would be 4th, even though I personally would not consider a silver as an option. I personally prefer Black [lab] females to anything else, but that is only my preference.

and it doesn't take a professional to know what the genetic make up of a "silver" is. Facts are facts and the information is out there.

I took it completely out of context then, sorry about that.

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What was wrong with my comment (by the way I was referring to Dakota's Cajun Roux "Roux") ? He was probably the greatest trial chocolate ever and one of the greatest trial labs ever regardless of color. His bloodline has also been very successful. He's a great example of not all chocolates being sub par hunters. My comment was only that on average chocolates are far less consistent fetchers

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HTH.

Can't be too careful. Never know what yer gonna find on the inter webs!

Looks like a ton of butt hurt on this thread. People are so sensitive lately. Can't we all just get along and love our labs no matte the color????

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Looks like a ton of butt hurt on this thread. People are so sensitive lately. Can't we all just get along and love our labs no matte the color????

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Agree with what you're saying here. People are too sensitive in general these days. If someone asks for opinions, then people will give their opinions. THEN, other people get butt hurt because someone's opinion contradicts their own. It's the inevitable nature of the beast...

My $0.02. I have a silver (Registered Chocolate Lab) that comes from great Master Hunter Lines (3 generations traced back) and is a fantastic dog, great temperament, great drive, and did awesome her first season. I look forward to many more seasons with her as well as her being a great family companion. She is way better than than my 6 year old yellow lab is (or ever was for that matter) and has a ton more drive.

That being said, trainers will almost all agree that chocolates can be the hardest to deal as far as training and drive and there is a higher percentage of them that do wash out of the hunting programs. That doesn't mean that all of them will or that none of them can or will be great hunting dogs and companions as i have proof of just the opposite. The guy who trained mine was skeptical at first and warned me that he gets a lot of chocolates and silvers that don't make the program. He also said you can tell pretty quick as some silvers definitely have other breeds mixed in, but that those owners never produce registration papers for multiple generations. I took his words at face value but in the end he actually apologized to me and said she was actually one of the easiest dogs that he has trained not just in regards to chocolates and that she is all lab.

Silvers are becoming more popular because they are not common or the norm when it comes to labs which is why breeders are always looking for Chocolates that carry the recessive gene in order to get that result and sell what is not common and get a premium for it.

All in all if you are looking for a companion and family pet any dog will work. If you want a sure fire hunting lab then silver/chocolate is not 100% guarantee.

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Silvers are becoming more popular because they are not common or the norm when it comes to labs which is why breeders are always looking for Chocolates that carry the recessive gene in order to get that result and sell what is not common and get a premium for it.

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This is big part of my problem with the silver lab thing. Part of being good, reputable, responsible breeder by most standards is to have the goal of producing a dog with best conformation in both temperament and appearance as possible. Good breeders also participate in the show ring, hunt tests, agility, obedience, or something along these lines. Breeding outside of the standard on purpose for the sole means of making a larger profit is a red flag. I paid a premium for my well-bred labrador. His mother was a master hunter. His sister has won best of breed in local shows. He is excellent representation of what a Labrador should be, smart, friendly, athletic, great English-style block head. The breeder I got him from is an expert on the breed and is very active in the Labrador community. For the record, I don't hunt or show or whatever. I just wanted a healthy, great dog from an ethical, responsible breeder. My first lab was one I adopted in college and was great dog also. For most people, they just want a good dog and that's fine.

My chocolate is Dakota Cajun Roux's grandson. I got him from a local breeder who's dam was one of his pups. He's a great dog and looks exactly like Roux when he was the same age. Even named him Rouxfus. The nock on chocolates is all hearsay (in my opinion).