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long water line questions

13,406 Views | 46 Replies | Last: 10 yr ago by Ornlu
Ornlu
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By seamless, I really mean this type of stuff: http://www.jmeagle.com/products/water_sewer/pure-core.html

It comes in spools, 1000' long if I remember correctly. When they get to the end of a spool and need to connect to the next, they melt the ends and push them together (their term for that is "fusion weld" but I think any welders on the OB would disagree with that term) so that you can't even see the joint afterword. The joints are very difficult for the untrained so I'd hire that part out if you decide to go that way.
Kenneth_2003
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quote:
I've never done a run this long but don't overlook water hammer.

1320' of 1" pipe contains 450 lbs of water. 10 gpm = 4 ft/sec.
1320' of 2" pipe contains 1800 lbs of water. 10 gpm = 1 ft/sec.

Even at low velocities, you're little faucets may be bringing a quarter ton or more of water to a very quick halt stressing every component in your system.
. Once inside the home, you install air cushions in the plumbing to absorb the hammer.

In my parents home all of the plumbing is in the attic and there are about a dozen T's installed vertically with an 8" piece pointing straight up and capped off on the top. This provides a trapped pocket of air inside the system that can compress and absorb the impact. If you use PEXn your foundation you can build these in the wall behind every sink.

Just make sure that there isn't a large volume of pipe traped between back flow preventers that doesn't have this and you should be fine.
ballchain
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TxAg20
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I've never used a booster pump for potable water. There are 3 lake houses in my family (none of them mine) and all have pumps which pull water from the lake for lawn irrigation. On a good year, only one breaks, some years all 3 break.

I have laid ~1400' of 2" poly for potable water from a city meter. The city pressure was ~70 psi and elevation change was about +10', so pressure wasn't an issue. The line is buried about 36" mostly in dirt, but there's about 100' of rocks and 200' of trees that we trenched through. So far, no problems with the line. The nice thing about poly is you can pinch it completely and it won't rupture. If a root starts growing into the line, it may deform the line, but it shouldn't ever rupture or separate. It's also seamless, as someone else suggested, which mean you won't have coupling leaks or failures except at each end of the line.

I have experienced water well problems where you get ready to take a shower before bed only to get naked, start the shower, and watch the water pressure drop as the pressure tank depletes. Nothing like getting dressed, getting a flashlight and trouble-shooting pump problems when you were mentally prepared for a shower and sleep.

I much prefer the simplicity (and would be willing to pay $1000+ for) a 2" poly line with no couplings over a 1" line in 300' increments and a booster pump. Especially if I depended on the line for daily household water.
TxAg20
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For the 1400' line I mentioned in my last post, I bought the line from an oilfield supply company. They put a full (new) spool on a spool trailer and I used less than 1/2 the spool, probably 1/4-1/3. The line is marked by the foot, so they just billed me for what I used when I returned the trailer and remaining pipe. We rented a ride-on Ditch Witch with a chain type digger on the back and a blade on the front. Dug the ditch, tied one end of the poly to the Ditch Witch to spool it off and drag it to the other end, and used the blade to back fill the ditch. The worst part was the 3-4 hours of ditching, but overall it was an easy project for 2 guys in a day.
ballchain
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Apache
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There is a huge difference in using a booster pump out of a lake (which I have installed dozens) and a booster pump on treated potable water. Lake water invariably sucks up silt, muscles, algae, fish etc. It can be very tough on a pump, especially those which are not maintained or installed properly. In addition, the sheer volume of water used for irrigation water dwarfs what even a large family will use for a residence only. This results in increased wear and tear on pumps and greatly shortens the lifespan.

Ideal situation for the OP: install a 2" poly line, upgrade the meter to 3/4 or 1", and install the booster pump. He have all the volume and pressure he will ever need. The 30 odd pounds he'll be left with if he doesn't use a pump is below code levels even with a 2" line. I'm not sure why his point is being overlooked by everyone. Anyway, that's pretty much all I can say. Good luck OP.
Ornlu
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quote:
The 30 odd pounds he'll be left with if he doesn't use a pump is below code levels even with a 2" line. I'm not sure why his point is being overlooked by everyone. Anyway, that's pretty much all I can say. Good luck OP.
Code is 20psi. His starting pressure will be closer to 60psi if he's in Wickson Creek area, or 90psi if he's in BTU area. That leaves him with more like 45 - 75 psi at the house. Booster is not necessary.
milkman00
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We used the same type machine as TXAG20. Make sure to get one that isn't worn out, and has a clean out bar with it. The one we got wasn't the best and didn't clean out the ditch as well as it should have. TXAG20 - how deep did you bury the line?

Our issues come from the couplings breaking in the middle between the joints of 20' pipe. For all the expansion coupling repairs we've put in over the years, you would think that there would be enough to keep us from having issues, but no such luck. We really wish we would have used something without the joints, but I don't know what the options were 25+ years ago. Not sure if poly wasn't available, cost issues, or if Dad just didn't want to have to hire someone to deal with connecting the ends.

Of the half mile line, the first half (next to meter) goes up a hill about 40'. Most of our problems are in this area. The other quarter mile is relatively flat and we've only had a few breaks along that section.

TLDR: Our heavy black soil breaks the couplings when it expands and contracts.
techno-ag
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The OB pulls through again. I really appreciate it, I learn a lot from you guys.
AgEng06
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quote:
Save $700.00 and have a shower that'll peel paint!
Or the skin off of your nutsack
techno-ag
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quote:
The 5/8" meter shouldn't make a lot of difference if it's a short run at 5/8" as most meters are. For the 1/4 mile or 1320' of line, I would use 2" potable water rated poly as it's cheap, easy to lay, durable, and flexible. With no elevation change, at a flow rate of 10 gallons/minute, you'll lose 33.5 psi to friction pressure over a 1320' run in plastic (poly/pvc/pex) pipe. With 2" plastic pipe and all other variables the same, you'll lose 3 psi. Subtract .433 psi per foot of positive elevation change.

If you're starting at 45 psi, your hydro-static pressure change going up 25' in elevation will be 10.825 psi netting you a little over 34 psi static at the house. With a 10 gpm draw at the house and 1/4 mile of 1" line you'll have almost no pressure remaining. With 1/4 mile of 2" line, you'll have ~31 psi at the house with a 10 gpm draw. I would spend money on bigger line over a booster pump as bigger line is more reliable.

Edit: Here's an easy friction loss calculator to plug different line sizes and types into. For any plastic line, just use PVC as the friction coefficient differences should be negligible. http://www.freecalc.com/fricfram.htm

Evidently beginning pressure is 55-60 psi, according to those who know more about it.

So, beginning at 60, with no changes in elevation, staying below root level, I should go with 2 inch poly in the longest roll I can find, or use "seamless" connections if I have to. That's what I'm leaning toward, with "air cushions" built in the walls.
Ornlu
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