yeah i got worked up about blanket "fire is bad for the entire intermountain west b/c cheatgrass is bad in SW idaho" and got overzealous in my response.

fact of the matter is that cheatgrass is bad in a lot of areas, but the intermountain west is a varied ecosystem, and cheatgrass tends to not be a problem in areas with a lot of moisture. the bulk of the refuge is wetlands and old pastures from bought out ranches. burning 100 acres did not destroy the refuge.

I think these guys would have had my support arguing that a poorly written law was miss used to convict them of arson. But when you go and do stupid stuff like this you lose all ability to appeal to common sense. This is not how our society operates.

What's so hard about that?

Regarding the legality of all these charges/penalties, I'm just gonna leave this here:
Lawyer's Explanation with citations

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I think these guys would have had my support arguing that a poorly written law was miss used to convict them of arson. But when you go and do stupid stuff like this you lose all ability to appeal to common sense. This is not how our society operates.

What's so hard about that?

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the hammonds do not want the protesters there. they aren't the ones being stupid. the bundy's and their "militia" friends are the ones being stupid.

This hasn't been discussed in this thread, and I have hesitated to bring it up. The Bundys are Mormons. And some of the stuff they have cited is influenced by their own brand of Mormon beliefs.

I am Mormon too. But like any religion you have some that are further off the deep end than others. My Mormon experience doesn't include ranting and raving about the federal govt., but certainly Mormons on average are much more politically conservative than the avg. American.

I note that the LDS church just issued a press release distancing the church from the Bundys and their supposed religious inspiration for all of this.

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-responds-to-inquiries-regarding-oregon-armed-occupation

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While the disagreement occurring in Oregon about the use of federal lands is not a Church matter, Church leaders strongly condemn the armed seizure of the facility and are deeply troubled by the reports that those who have seized the facility suggest that they are doing so based on scriptural principles. This armed occupation can in no way be justified on a scriptural basis. We are privileged to live in a nation where conflicts with government or private groups can and should be settled using peaceful means, according to the laws of the land.

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FWIW, while we argue that the backfires set were not natural phenomena, let's also remember that we systematically and regularly PUT OUT natural fires before they can burn themselves out naturally. We create unnatural fire-breaks (roads, easements) and have distorted the vegetative composition of large swaths of land by doing so over time. What we have observed relatively recently in habitat composition is probably not natural, as it has already been distorted by the activities of man (if we consider man's effects of the environment we are a part of unnatural to begin with).

Wasn't knocking you in the least. Liked the fire discussion.

Now back to wackjobs.

One thing to consider is that these idiots have occupied the headquarters of a gigantic migratory bird sanctuary. Burns has a large bird watching festival in April. People come from all over the world to look at birds on the refuge. Bird watchers tend to be big city liberals with somewhat haughty attitudes when interacting with country yokels in eastern Oregon. Birdwatchers are as easy to spot in town as government field biologists because they all wear the same style clothes. The only difference between them is the ever present expensive binoculars suspended from the necks of the birders.

The murderous outrage from the bird watching community is going to be epic if the Bundys still have the refuge shut down when the birds migrate through! Only their hatred of guns would prevent them from forming an anti-Bundy militia and forcefully removing them in time for the bird festival!

Are you saying the goverment biologists aren't quite as well equiped?

I kid, I've had folks think I was a homeless dude on more than one occassion. But those federal guys are the big money biologists.

The federal and state biologists I've known can generally be divided into two basic species. One is the blue collar, former ranch hand species which can be identified by Wrangler jeans, western shirt, cowboy or hiking boots and Carhartt jackets. They wear cowboy hats or baseball hats, both dirty. They tend to drive full size American trucks with an NRA or USMC decal on the rear window. They often wear Cabela's gear, or some type of camouflage.

The second and most prevalent species of biologist is the NPR type. Polar fleece, especially in vest form, is a dead giveaway for these people. They will be found sporting a useless floppy, quick dry boonie hat, quick dry pants that unzip into shorts, and fancy hiking boots. Their gear comes almost exclusively from REI or Ben Meadows. These people drive Japanese trucks or Subaru Outbacks with their rear window obscured by an array of environmental group decals.

There are a couple minor sub-species, but most fall into either of these two categories!

That's pretty accurate. I'm a hybrid of the two.

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The second and most prevalent species of biologist is the NPR type. Polar fleece, especially in vest form, is a dead giveaway for these people. They will be found sporting a useless floppy, quick dry boonie hat, quick dry pants that unzip into shorts, and fancy hiking boots. Their gear comes almost exclusively from REI or Ben Meadows. These people drive Japanese trucks or Subaru Outbacks with their rear window obscured by an array of environmental group decals.

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Those pants kick ass.

I realized the other day how old my friends and I had gotten, when I mentioned my quick dry tactical pants had an elastic waste band that I loved. They all (immediately) chimed in how much they love the elastic waste band. I hit me like a ton of bricks that 1- We are turning into geezers fast and 2- Being a geezer is actually pretty great

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This hasn't been discussed in this thread, and I have hesitated to bring it up. The Bundys are Mormons. And some of the stuff they have cited is influenced by their own brand of Mormon beliefs.

I am Mormon too. But like any religion you have some that are further off the deep end than others. My Mormon experience doesn't include ranting and raving about the federal govt., but certainly Mormons on average are much more politically conservative than the avg. American.

I note that the LDS church just issued a press release distancing the church from the Bundys and their supposed religious inspiration for all of this.

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-responds-to-inquiries-regarding-oregon-armed-occupation

quote:

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While the disagreement occurring in Oregon about the use of federal lands is not a Church matter, Church leaders strongly condemn the armed seizure of the facility and are deeply troubled by the reports that those who have seized the facility suggest that they are doing so based on scriptural principles. This armed occupation can in no way be justified on a scriptural basis. We are privileged to live in a nation where conflicts with government or private groups can and should be settled using peaceful means, according to the laws of the land.

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Thank you for that input. I used to work for the DWR in Utah (wildlife resources) and we occasionally had conflicts with ranchers, mainly over dams.


Incidentally, did anybody notice the patches these guys are putting on their shoulders? First off, they are attention *****s. Secondly, they are completely mixing up their symbols. It has a pirate flag under Don't Tread on Me. So are they patriots or pirates?

Dumbassery. I bet they don't even know the origin of liberty or death. But by golly they wanted a skull and crossed sabers.

The fellow that wears that camo with all the patches is probably Blaine Cooper. Google him and be entertained. I saw him around Burns the other day when I was there.

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Bird watchers tend to be big city liberals with somewhat haughty attitudes when interacting with country yokels in eastern Oregon.

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I find it amusing to read people's stereotypes of various groups. Often made with nothing factual, more of a hunch.

My conservative East Texas wife was the Executive Director of Houston Audubon for 5 years. Many of the biggest donors and best birders were retired oil company executives. About as liberal as my ass. Oh, there are plenty of liberals attracted to birding, but I'd guess even more conservatives.

I'm in the Pacific Northwest. A conservative bird watcher up here is rarer than most birds these people are trying to watch! My description of their attitude, which isn't all inclusive, is based on interaction with them.

Ironically, probably the most conservative government biologist I know is a rock climbing, bird watcher.

Also, your new furbearer/wolf coordinator is a friend of mine....I trained him on a lot of bear related issues.

Dang forgot a happy face

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I'm in the Pacific Northwest. A conservative bird watcher up here is rarer than most birds these people are trying to watch!

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By our standards, you're a flaming liberal for even willing to live up there!!

We have better gun laws than Texas and I can elk hunt an hour from the house! Actually my side of the state is more conservative than Texas. I miss Texas, but its actually really nice up here, even with the Bundys running around.

If it's pretty, give it about another 10-15 years, they will find it.

Burns is full of federal and state Leos including swat. Google the Pete Santilli live stream radio show. He's one of the loons broadcasting live from the refuge. They think it's gonna go down tonight.

I wish they'd just disable the local cell towers so that goob can't broadcast anymore. Then in a day people would forget about them. Just shut off all electricity to them and hope they wander off into the wilderness to perish.

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I wish they'd just disable the local cell towers so that goob can't broadcast anymore. Then in a day people would forget about them. Just shut off all electricity to them and hope they wander off into the wilderness to perish.

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That's exactly how I would handle it. Block the roads and trailheads, kill communications and power and let them camp out for the rest of the winter.

Haven't paid that close attention, are there any women there?

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Haven't paid that close attention, are there any women there?

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i don't think the gift shop has a kitchen

So turn off the heat and we're about 2 weeks from Brokeback Mountain Pt. II.

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So turn off the heat and we're about 2 weeks from Brokeback Mountain Pt. II.

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I'm hoping more like then"Donner-Reed Party Pt 2".

The residents of Harney County are tired of the Bundys and believe they ought to pack up and leave. The general consensus seems to be that the Bundys were wrong in occupying the refuge but it has drawn some much needed attention to the very real issues facing ranchers in southeast Oregon. Just google the proposed Owyhee Canyonlands Wilderness designation. That's one of the biggest of many issues ranchers are facing out here.

If you're a rancher in Texas, be thankful you're on deeded private property.

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If you're a rancher in Texas, be thankful you're on deeded private property.

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Tell that to the ranchers that used to own the land where ft hood rests

Or Aransas Wildlife Refuge

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FWIW, while we argue that the backfires set were not natural phenomena, let's also remember that we systematically and regularly PUT OUT natural fires before they can burn themselves out naturally. We create unnatural fire-breaks (roads, easements) and have distorted the vegetative composition of large swaths of land by doing so over time. What we have observed relatively recently in habitat composition is probably not natural, as it has already been distorted by the activities of man (if we consider man's effects of the environment we are a part of unnatural to begin with).

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I read that the local managers of the refuge agreed that the fire dids improve the acreage.

Also, until a few years ago, fires to clear the range were routinely set by both BLM and ranchers and that it wasn't that unusual for the fire to cross from BLM land to private property or vice versa.

The Idaho 3% militia put out a call to action today. Members of this group are traveling to the refuge to surround the headquarters where the Bundys are encamped. Their mission is to provide a ring of security at the headquarters and prevent a Waco type shootout. They say it's a peaceful mission and the wearing of tactical gear and camo is prohibited. Things are getting interesting!