Ok so I want to get a small rifle chambered in .556 but the Tavor is really expensive and has an iffy trigger. So my question is: would you spend the money outright on a Tavor or buy the stamp and build an SBR for possibly cheaper than the base cost of a Tavor? I am looking for input and build recc's for an SBR or advice on the plusses of a Tavor. TIA!

1. Buy a complete AR
2. Strip lower, send to engraving outfit
3. eFile Form-1 via trust, receive approval in ~30 days
4. Replace and/or cut down barrel to length of your choosing
5. Upgrade trigger, handguard, optics, and other accessories as you see fit

Custom SBR > Tavor ... Unless you really like Tavor

I'd go tavor and just replace the trigger. Alot easier

I can't say I have any experience with the Tavor, or know much about it, but the availability and relative inexpensiveness of AR parts is hard to beat when choosing a platform. You will, however, lose some muzzle velocity when shooting out of a shorter barrel, but at close ranges I don't think that's a big issue for most people.

The Tavor looks like a cool gun, but way too expensive for me.

.556, thats a big round

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.556, thats a big round

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Sarcasm? SCAR17? Dont they make a sbr version?

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.556, thats a big round

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Sarcasm? SCAR17? Dont they make a sbr version?

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Joking, although technically .556 would be a very big round. Obviously he meant 5.56

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.556, thats a big round

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Whoops I'm dumb. Yes 5.56 is what I meant!

I've made the same mistake too, just giving you a hard time.

To contribute to the thread, I say sbr for the reasons bigtruckguy posted, so many more customization options and availability of the parts. I have not ever fired a tavor.

What's the intended use?

I don't have either but I would get an SBR


how short of an SBR do you want?

Looking at probably a 10.5 inch barrel and eventually putting a suppressor on it. Intended use is just for the fun of it.

I love my Tavor.

With the Timney trigger on it, it is sweet. I love the ballistics of a 16-18 inch barrel.

The 223 is a weak cartridge as is. If you can have better ballistics out of a package that is more of less the same overall length. It's a no brainer to me.

Good points on the availability of AR pays though. The Tavor will never be able make up for that.
Plus you can have it NOW vs waiting. I HATE waiting.

I agree w/ the above poster. 5.56 in anything less than 14.5" is not really going to be effective. 5.56 needs velocity to perform appropriately. With the Tavor, you get the length w/ a compact form factor.

However, SBRs are stinkin cool. I'd get one if I had the money and if my wife would let me

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I agree w/ the above poster. 5.56 in anything less than 14.5" is not really going to be effective. 5.56 needs velocity to perform appropriately. With the Tavor, you get the length w/ a compact form factor.

However, SBRs are stinkin cool. I'd get one if I had the money and if my wife would let me

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556 needs very high minimum velocities to fragment in the FMJ flavor that the military is required to use.

There are 556 and 223 bonded bullets that we civies can use that will expand down to 1800 FPS. Speer Gold Dot, Fusion, Hornady GMX, Barnes bullets, Swift Scirocco, Nosler Partition. They make heavier recoiling calibers unnecessary for self defense. They even work well on small deer.

Get the Tavor if you won't be getting a suppressor. Get an AR in your choice of flavor with an adjustable gas block if you will be suppressing.

For build recommendations, BCM is hard to beat for selection, quality, cost, and customer service. Daniel Defense has also been turning out some nice 10.5" SBRs for a long time.

Although everyone knows the ladies like a SCAR 16 SBR.

I love my Tavor. If if you happen to be in the north Houston area and ever wanna shoot it let me know. I'd be happy to meet up at a range and let you put it through its paces.

Skub, how is the trigger on your Tavor? I have heard they are pretty bad. For $1600 I want something whose trigger I don't have to replace right away.

One of my cousins has a Tavor, I've put a few hundred rounds through it, shooting it with both the factory trigger and the Timney trigger. Honestly I don't think the factory trigger is that bad, although the Timney is a big improvement. If you've ever shot an M-16 with its gritty 12-15# trigger, you can learn to live with the factory Tavor trigger, and many expert marksman medals have been earned by first-time shooters with an M-16. I could consistently stay on a silhouette target at 100 yds standing with the Tavor factory trigger.

The biggest drawback to the Tavor for me is the weight distribution, that thing is really tail heavy with a loaded 30 round mag. Swinging it around single handedly jumping out of a truck or utv puts a lot of funny pressure on your wrist with all the weight being behind the pistol grip. With the mag being in front of your wrist on an AR, it feels much more controllable to me. Personal preference.

I said all that to say all this, I'd lean towards a suppressed SBR. The Tavor is an awesome rifle, but the weight distribution and noise level will keep it out of my safe. I really like the idea of a suppressed AR, I have very little of my hearing left, and am religious about wearing earplugs now. With or without earplugs, a suppressed AR is fairly quiet, and the Tavor is loud no matter what (even with 2 forms of ear pro). I've only shot a suppressed AR once, but it was very enjoyable.

Why not an AR pistol with sig arm brace? No stamp needed.

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Why not an AR pistol with sig arm brace? No stamp needed.

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Indeed. http://www.slickguns.com/product/75-melonite-upper-pistol-kit-sig-arm-brace-package-419

A) I have a SIG 556 pistol, w. the arm brace - I need to work w. the tube, etc, but its a better idea, IMO to go w. a 10" barrel.

B) With that said, a 10" 223, isn't doing too much, on the ballistics side of things - could be poor judgement on my part, but my house gun is now my 10MM one - which is also MUCH quieter.

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Skub, how is the trigger on your Tavor? I have heard they are pretty bad. For $1600 I want something whose trigger I don't have to replace right away.

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I don't know how to answer this question. It's a stiff trigger. It's what I would consider to be a proper battle trigger. If you are looking for a two-stage trigger for shooting sub MOA paper targets from 200 yards, this probably isn't a trigger you are going to love.

However I don't have a problem with it. The gun is more accurate than I am. If the intended use for the gun is personal defense then the trigger is perfect.

For whatever it's worth, the trigger is heavy - north of 10 pounds - but it doesn't stack and it breaks cleanly. But it is a battle trigger not a target trigger. It is perfect for what it is.

One of the things I love most about the Tavor is that it is about as close to a military-grade weapon as you can buy. Not mil-spec, but military grade. Everything about the gun is battle tested and battle hardened. It's my go-to home defense weapon, which is to say that I trust it more than any other gun I own.

But to be clear the main reason I bought the gun is because it's cool. It just is. It's also expensive, and I get that. There is in reality very little difference in the capabilities of my Tavor and an $800 AR. I just like it, and that's good enough.

I can build out a use case for the Tavor if that helps:

It beats a SRB as a close-quarters battle rifle because it has a longer barrel in the same overall length so the ballistics are better and it is more accurate.

It beats a SBR (IMO) because the balance is better and can be fired one handed very easily.

It beats a SBR because it doesn't require an NFA stamp.

I can't speak to reliability because there are a million options for SBR configurations. What I can say about my Tavor is that it has never once hiccuped - It is rock solid.

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The biggest drawback to the Tavor for me is the weight distribution, that thing is really tail heavy with a loaded 30 round mag. Swinging it around single handedly jumping out of a truck or utv puts a lot of funny pressure on your wrist with all the weight being behind the pistol grip. With the mag being in front of your wrist on an AR, it feels much more controllable to me. Personal preference.

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It's a matter of personal preference for sure. What you've just described is the main reason I like the Tavor instead of the AR platform. I find having the weigh of the action behind the trigger makes it incredibly stable and advantageous for both close quarters use and for distance shooting. The weight on an AR is almost entirely forward of the trigger which makes it more cumbersome to manage in my opinion.

The Tavor is heavy - especially compared to a SBR. But the weight is manageable when slung and provides a stable shooting platform when shouldered.

Again it is a matter of personal preference, which is why I would be happy to let anyone interested shoot my Tavor to see if they like it. I suspect that there are some people who would hate it and others who would love it.

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I agree w/ the above poster. 5.56 in anything less than 14.5" is not really going to be effective. 5.56 needs velocity to perform appropriately. With the Tavor, you get the length w/ a compact form factor.

However, SBRs are stinkin cool. I'd get one if I had the money and if my wife would let me

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Balistics By the Inch

A 14" barrel is still pushing 2800+ FPS with a 55 grain .223 projectile
A 10" barrel is pushing 2600+ FPS

With good projectile selection (Read: pretty much anything not FMJ), you have a very effective caliber at close range. And a very effective caliber at any range a pistol could be, and wishes it could be effective at.

Not to mention, and this goes for both platforms, that a shoulder fired weapon is considerably more controllable than a handgun.

I like the idea of a bullpup, but the ergos are something I can never wrap my head around.

Another huge plus on the side of an AR is the ability to swap out uppers and go from a 5.56 upper to a .50 Beowulf upper in about 10 seconds. Can't say the same for most Tavor/bullpup designs.

schmellba, you get it almost right. proper projectile selection is key to any firearm application, and for 5.56 it is even more paramount. 55gr FMJ requires impact velocity of 2500+ fps in order to tumble/fragment appropriately. anything less and you get higher chances passthroughs. If you run a ballistic calculator, you can find out w/ decreased barrel length, your effective range drops significantly. Even with 62gr green tips, you need a little less impact velocity, but still have the probability for ineffective hits at range. M193 out of a 20" barrel (3100fps) has an effective range of about 130-150 yards. I bet with a 10" weapon you'd be talking 40 yards.

I would have to look into the soft-points velocity requirements, but they are the preferred round for two legged animals and penetration/expansion. Since they do not rely on the projectile to do funny things, they just need to expand, which is more probable up to the published minimum velocity. Not to derail this thread, I just LOVE projectiles and terminal ballistics.

That's why I said "anything not FMJ.

For reference on impact velocities:

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Nosler stated impact velocity requirements for lines of projectiles:

Partition:
Minimum Impact Velocity for Reliable Expansion- 1800 fps
Maximum Impact Velocity for Reliable Expansion- N/A


Ballistic Tip:
Minimum Impact Velocity for Reliable Expansion- 1600 fps
Maximum Impact Velocity for Reliable Expansion- 3000 fps


AccuBond:
Minimum Impact Velocity for Reliable Expansion- 1800 fps
Maximum Impact Velocity for Reliable Expansion- N/A

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Using JBM's online calculator:

A 55gr ballistic tip leaving a 10" barrel with a muzzle velocity of 2600 FPS has an impact velocity of almost 1700 FPS at 300 yards.

A 60gr Partition leaving a 10" barrel with a muzzle velocity of 2600 FPS has an impact velocity of almost 1900 FPS at 200 yards.

Not exactly "CQB Only" distances there with projectiles that will still expand reliably.

Are you going to take a .223 SBR and make the 1000 yard kill? Not hardly. But making a statement that it is severely limited in range is also not exactly accurate, especially when you account for the fact that this isn't the .mil and we aren't limited to FMJ or penetrator tipped ammo, which is universally accepted as craptastic at best.

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That's why I said "anything not FMJ.

Not exactly "CQB Only" distances there with projectiles that will still expand reliably.

Are you going to take a .223 SBR and make the 1000 yard kill? Not hardly. But making a statement that it is severely limited in range is also not exactly accurate, especially when you account for the fact that this isn't the .mil and we aren't limited to FMJ or penetrator tipped ammo, which is universally accepted as craptastic at best.

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no arguments there. we both agree that with the proper ammo, velocity is not as large of a concern (minimum velocity needs to be verified, I've seen "minimum velocity" ballistics that suck). I wish some people on youtube would do some gel block videos to see how their line of projectiles performs. Or pay me to do it

As for the original thread, I'd still side with the Tavor because I'd rather not artificially handicap myself with a shorter barrel when mil-type ammo is cheap and available for stockpiling and practicing.

I got my stamp back for an SBR I built a couple of weeks ago. It has a 10.3" barrel. I've never shot the Tavor, but I love this little thing.