Outdoors
Sponsored by

Camping above tree line in black bear country.

10,031 Views | 47 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by ursusguy
fireinthehole
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Obviously no trees to hang food. So, are black bear a problem above tree line? If so, what are the best and lightest bear canisters to use for food storage? I would want one that would store 3 or 4 days worth of food, but not be so bulky and heavy to pack. Something collapsible would be nice but that seems unlikely.

On another subject, I read in a Field and Stream survival book that climbing a tree is a way to avoid bear attack (obviously when below timber line). That seems like the wrong thing to try to me on several fronts. Finding a climbable tree is the first problem. Thick conifers are not easy to climb. Also, I was pretty sure bears could climb trees. Trying to fight off a bear in a tree does not seem like a viable option.

You out there Ursus?
EMY92
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
If the bear is in the tree, it's trying to hang on just like you are, it limits it's offensive options.
ursusguy
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Any of the canisters at REI will work. Outside of grizzly country, the Ursasac seems to work alright.

Yes, they will get above the treeline. There's a stretch in early July (Northern NM Southern CO), that for about a week, most of the bears will be up around the treeline.--The first bear attack I am associated with was at 11,700 ft.

Yeah, don't climb a tree, that's a very bad idea.
Pierce County Ag
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
If you're going to be in a National Park, check to see if they'll allow Ursasac in place of a hard bear canister.

[This message has been edited by Pierce County Ag (edited 2/13/2013 7:44p).]
ursusguy
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Last time I checked you couldn't. Good point.
WP69
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
My sole contribution to this thread is from an old Field & Stream tip. "Playing dead sometimes works with Grizzlies and Brown bears, but if attacked by a Black bear fight like your life depended on it. Because it does. "
ccard257
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Depending on the national park, they may require a canister regardless of where you are in relation to tree line.

Ursus - earmuffs.

I hate bear canisters. They're bulky, heavy, and they don't get any less bulky as I eat my food. If I'm not somewhere that requires them and I haven't heard about high bear activity, once I get above treeline I usually just put my food off by itself when I go to bed and resign myself to the fact that's its going to be a long, hungry hike to the nearest trailhead or highway if I wake up and its gone. Sometimes i'll stack pots up on top and hope that I wake up if they get knocked over but that probably wouldn't actually happen. This is probably not the best advice and you should probably ignore it.

Okay ursus, earmuffs off.

On the creative solutions side, I have also hung bags off of cliffs or large boulders when trees weren't available.
ursusguy
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Thanks for the warning.

That's actually not terrible. I would recommend double bagging the food to cut down on the food smell. I would also add, if you are in a popular spot, and a bear does get ahold of the food please fess up and let the rangers/other folks know about it. I can pretty well guarantee the bear will come looking again for several nights.--In 2 of the 2000 attacks we learned during the investigation that the bear had gotten human food IN/or near the campsite within the last 2-3 days.
Pierce County Ag
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
quote:
I hate bear canisters. They're bulky, heavy, and they don't get any less bulky as I eat my food.


Then, you'll loooove climbing the Grand Teton. We had to lug those heavy *****es up to the Lower Saddle...
Sir Psycho
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Carry a 12 gauge shotgun filled with slugs, and uh...no worries. It'll drop a black bear up to 50 yards.
Campfire Soul
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I am very ignorant on the subject. But if you vacuum pack all of your food in one meal portions ahead of time will the smell not be reduced enough?
ursusguy
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
In areas with moderate to high bear activity, no.

I watched a 119 lbs sow take there lethal 12 gauge slugs, and not "drop". She couldn't go anywhere, but stood there balling. It's why I became so passionate about bears and proper camping procedures. Makes me sick thinking about it 14 years later.
fireinthehole
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Thank you for the great input. BTW, you guys can be hilarious.

If I absolutely had to, I would shoot a bear, but it would be a last resort. I would rather let it have my food and walk out and tell the ranger.

This old fart is going to try and climb Blanca Peak. Typical base camp is at Lake Como, 11,700', so there you go Ursus. I am going to try and camp above there along the route to get away and reduce the mosquitos. Hanging the food is prob not going to be a viable option. I had good luck hanging food at Upper Sand Creek Lake last summer, also 11,700' (a lot of glacial lakes around that elevation in CO), but had to use a lot of deet.

I will not be in a National Park but in a National Forest, so the Ursasac should be allowed. I will check it out. Is the Ursasac less bulky than a canister and maybe lighter? I really do not want to pack a canister, and will probably go with the remote stash idea if the Ursasac is heavy. I have worked to get my pack weight down to a minimum.
fireinthehole
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Not trying to hog the thread, but I have another ? for Ursus.

As regards black bear, is throwing large rocks at one a good idea to drive it away, or would that just invite an attack?
MouthBQ98
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Why not bear spray? i'm sure rocks might deter it, but if it gets close a dose of bear spray will send it packing.

FWIW, with all my black bear encounters, moving towards it sent it running away, intentionally or not.



[This message has been edited by MouthBQ98 (edited 2/14/2013 12:04p).]
fireinthehole
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Just don't want to carry the spray or a gun. I am wanting LIGHT. Day time attacks are very rare per Ursus, so rocks or spray prob not needed for blacks. Spray at night in the tent does not help much if you are awakened by a paw, nor do rocks. Ursus says just punch 'em in the nose, right?
ursusguy
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Unless I am doing aversive conditioning work, I rarely if ever carry pepper spray if I'm just in black bear country.

As Mouth mentioned, usually just moving in their direction will get them moving. Yes, I will generally send a rock (or handful) in their general direction.

I popped on in the head with a rock after 3 bluff charges (within 12 feet), instantly changed it's attitude. The simple physical contact, with yelling, flipped the switch.

fireinthehole
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Thanks again.
cheeky
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
don't look behind you
fireinthehole
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Great video. I am impressed that the hunters did not shoot the bear. I am also not sure that the bear climbed the tree after the hunter, but more so out of curiosity.
ursusguy
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Two different bears. The one in the tree is a little guy trying to not get his butt kicked by the bigger bear.
fireinthehole
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Oh. That makes more sense. Cute little fella.
VanZandt92
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I've barely been on outdoors board, but this is an interesting thread, since I'm in the Southern Rockies quite often. I don't carry anything. And I don't really stress about it. The only time I carried a weapon was when I worked for the DWildlife Resources in Utah, and there were dead salmon from the run everywhere. That made me nervous.

Well, that and I was also afraid of the moose that I occasionally walked up on in the river.

Ursus, I don't know your background. What is it?
fireinthehole
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Never knew there were salmon in Utah.
Pierce County Ag
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
quote:
Never knew there were salmon in Utah.


Exactly. Are you effing kidding me?!?!
VanZandt92
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Strawberry river, yes. Its a manmade run.
ursusguy
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
VanVant--I'm a state wildlife biologist in Texas, been so for about 9 years now. Prior to that I did bear and lion work in NM, more specifically aimed at reducing bear/human interactions. So I ended up being the main investigator on several bear attacks. They sorta became my passion due to how easily it could have been avoided to not put one down. So I'm almost too comfortable around them during the day, but very anal retentive about camping procedures. Throw in some endangered species work down in the Florida Keys for awhile. Did my MS up at Tech following deer around. Covers the basics.

I still do assorted bear related consultations as the need arises. Generally related to urban/rural interface issues and outreach regarding bears.

What did you do in Utah? Flaming Gorge is a neat place.

[This message has been edited by ursusguy (edited 2/16/2013 5:27a).]
fireinthehole
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Ursus, dumb? If I am food, why does it matter if I keep my food in the vestibule? At least it is not inside and I could fight for it.
ursusguy
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
You want the food away from the sleeping area. Not worth the chance of injury to you or the bear.

Keep in mind, any physical contact by the bear, even minor, is likely a death sentence for the bear.

Half my attacks have food or food trash in close proximity as a contributing factor. Two of which would have been MUCH more severe if tentmates, or crew advisors had not been able to fight off the bear. Easy to avoid in the first place.

fireinthehole
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Understand. But why is my sent not enuf food enticement to begin with? All said, I do not want to cause any bear deaths, or my own.

What caused the other half of attacks?

[This message has been edited by fireinthehole (edited 2/16/2013 8:50p).]
ccard257
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I'll let ursus fill the details in better but long story short, you are not food to a bear and they do not associate your scent with food.
fireinthehole
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Oh, ok. Thank you. I thought since you should fight and not play dead that a black bear was looking to eat you. Attacks may be real rare to begin with.

I need to learn how to spell scent.

[This message has been edited by fireinthehole (edited 2/16/2013 9:09p).]
ursusguy
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Damn, had a long write up, and Texags/phone timed me out. I'll write it up again later.
fireinthehole
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Thanks. Interesting subject.
ursusguy
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Alright, let's try this again.

Card is correct, for all intents and purposes, black bears generally don't view humans as food.* Note the word generally. Secondly, bears do get habituated very easily, especially sub-adult males. Meaning, they aren't looking at you as food, but your scent may not mean a rat's a-- to them as a deterrent. Especially if there is an interesting smell of a potential food.---Keep in mind, in most of the western states, bears visit ~50% of all campsites on any given night. Think about how rarely things actually happen. When they do, generally their is something else that initially gets their attention.

Realistically with black bears, you have two types of attacks, Curiosity/Exploratory (C/E) incidents and truly Predatory attacks. Defensive attacks (cornered, sow w/ cubs, etc.) are really a non-factor with black bears. It's a pretty strong misconception with black bears (yes, dig enough, you will find an occasional example).

C/E are the vast majority of attacks. Typically this is a 2-4 year old male, habituated to humans at some level, and is generally well known to the area. Generally, human food/drink and or trash is usually in (or in close proximity) to the sleeping area of the victim. Injuries are almost incidental to the matter. Example, person got stepped on somewhere in the incident. If a person yells and comes up swinging this bear is out of there.

The "other" factor I alluded to above is the "isolated tent". Now this phenomenon is more of a concern in a group camping situation, and high use campgrounds. Loners rarely have this problem. Keep in mind, I said ~50% of all campsites are getting visited by a bear each night. Basically, does your tent stick out in some manner? Your group has 5 tents, 4 are in a line, and the snoring guy is out of line. I can almost guarantee the out of line tent is the one that gets hit. Second way, you have 5 tents, 4 are dome tents and one is an A-frame. Most likely the A-frame is getting popped.---Give me a diagram of a campsite an attack occurred in, and I can probably guess where the attack took place simply on the campsite layout.---Other odd behavior, young bears love dome tents. You knock them down, they stand right back up. They will jump on an empty tent multiple times, just to watch it pop up.

In a C/E incident, food will be the primary driver with "isolated" or interesting (exploratory) being secondary. Often, there is very little or no stealth on the part of the bear. Many times the victim is somewhat awake wondering if someone is playing a joke (and some times aren't sure until they actually make it out of the tent). Simply saying "boo" will likely end this incident.

The Predatory Attack is a different critter all together. This bear is most likely a mature (often REALLY mature, ie old a-- with little to no teeth left), male, that is pretty transitory in nature and will likely be unknown to the area. That is why this one is so unpredictable. Regardless of the food resources around, the sleeping area will almost always be "isolated" in some manner. This bear is stealthy. Big issue for defensive purposes, most victims are already 10-15 feet from their sleeping area when they first realize there is a problem. They generally hit the head and torso first, and immediately start dragging backwards. The bear will have the person by the upper arm, shoulder, or a canine in the ear canal and the lower canine around the jaw of the person (or eye socket and jaw in the case of one of mine). This is why you come up fighting for your life.

As rare as they are, I have been associated with two predatory attacks (ahhh hang Philmonters). In both cases the person was pretty well saved by some pretty heroic actions. Here are a brief synopsis of those incidents.

--July 2000---Usual radio chatter starts about 6:00 AM, nothing pertaining to me (or so I thought), so I turned my radio off. About 10 minutes later, I hear the Program Director running around frantically looking for the Bear Guys. Ok, now I am fully awake. Turns out there has been an incident at Cathedral Rock, and they want us there immediately. Get there, the crew is in shock, my boss is somewhat in shock, blood is everywhere, and we have a dead bear.

Turned out my boss heard the initial radio call, and the camp is about 3 minutes away from his house. When he got there, the bear was still circling the crew and charging the the crew. He sent his border collie after the bear, and went to the crew to make sure where everyone was. As soon as he was clear on everyone, he shot the bear at a run at about 75 yards. The last thing he saw as he took the slack out of the trigger was his dog dart in. He was pretty certain he had shot the dog (he didn't).---He could give a "shot of 270" to just about anything, but his dog bothered him (hippies never did catch on to that code, they thought it was an actual injection).

On to the investigation.....ROCS (Roving Outdoor Conservation School) a long term work crew with staff (why they had a radio). Due to staying in one location for a week, they had a bear box....sleeping area was 60 feet from the closest tent, about 12 feet from the bear box that oddly enough had a cake in it, about 30 feet from the sump, tent was smack in the middle of a game trail parallel to a creek. Victim was wearing the same shirt he cooked in, and had his food dirty shirt folded up under his head (why I recommend separate day and sleeping clothes).

The bear ripped in right next to his head, and immediately grabbed his upper and yanked him out of the tent. This was probably about a 185 lbs 16 yo kid. His tentmate came out yell and screaming, and went to town on the bear with tent poles, large sticks and anything he could get his hands on. Now almost 45 feet from the tent, he was able to drive the bear off. He had to drive the bear off several times. By now everyone else is now up. The crew gathered around the kid, started first aid, and radioed in the incident. After about 2 minutes, the bear popped up again, and started circling the entire group and charging periodically. The kid ended up having 16 puncture wounds from his wrist to his shoulder that were bone deep.

--2001--I was in grad school, but I had pretty well hand picked one of the bear guys (who was later a groomsman for me), so I had a pretty good handle on the situation. And it turned out the kid came back in 2002 to be on staff, and I got a great teaching tool/aide (turned out I knew more about his incident than he did). The bear had been one of my older radio collared males in '99, so I knew it pretty well.

--Old Camp--Crew still had their ranger (source of frustration with the screw ups). Before sundown, there was a decent sized bear seen about 75 yards from camp feeding on choke cherries. This really isn't all that unusual. An over zealous ranger had a kid collect his puke in a ziplock (important later), and left by the sump. About 10 PM, rustling was heard under the dining fly. About 3 AM, rustling was again heard around several packs, and then over near the sump. For some reason, everyone just assumed someone was rustling around. Around 4 AM, a tent got hit with a 16 and 17 yo inside.

Initially the 16 yo was hit. This kid was a high school DE, and came up swinging. The bear gave up on him immediately, and tagged the scrawny a-- 17 yo tentmate. The bear grabbed him by the ear canal (and later eye socket) and jaw, and immediately yanked him out of the tent. The bear flipped him quick and was dragging him while strattling the victim (ie-no leverage to fight). The whole time the tentmate is beating the tar of the bear, and it didn't care. Two rangers, and basically every advisor in camp was in on the fight at some point. The bear would let go, then relatch on. When the bear finally let go of the kid's head, and attacked the leg, and an advisor smashed it in the head with a football sized rock. The 17 yo ended up with multiple severe head lacerations, a partially crushed eye socket, part of a missing ear, several broken bones, a tricep almost ripped off , and a about a 3 inch deep bite out of his thigh. That finally drove it off. Several days later, a NMGF Conservation Officer shot the bear.

To be blunt, what ended up saving the kid was luck to some extent. There was a EMT in the camp at the time. AND, two kids in another crew in camp happened to be two of the best cross country runners in the country. They were able to make the trip to radio help in less than half the normal time, in the dark.

Screw ups......
*Tent was a long way from anybody
*Tent about 20 feet from sump
*Food wrappers were found under the dining fly
*Several packs had minor damage, and various food packets were around the packs
*Packs with food, were directly in front of the tent
*A weird, half eaten ziplock bag was found about 10 feet from the tent---it took a while to figure out, but yeah, it was the barf bag. Sick to us, but a major reward for the bear.
*Several other random things were found in the immediate vicinity
*There was a single, mundane sighting about 2 weeks before the incident
*This bear basically had very little in the way of teeth left.

Dang, I've rambled, hopefully you can pick up so useful tidbits. I have a pretty funny C/E incident involving an ice cream party, trespassers, hound dogs, and one extremely goofy freaking 3 yo bear all in the same incident. But I am about to fall asleep.
Page 1 of 2
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.