http://www.secretsofurbansurvival.com/1309/glocks-grip-angles-and-picking-handguns-for-combat-self-defense/

Discusses firing under stress and grip angles. Why you may like one over the other etc.



[This message has been edited by 12th Non-Reg (edited 3/16/2012 7:30a).]

This one is guranteed to start a lively discussion.

I am personally slanted to 1911s. A case of fit and comfort. Don't own Glocks, but I used a G19 for a CHL qualifier.

IF my 1911 fits me better and I am inclined to practice more. My POI = POA more often. To paraphrase Cooper, " A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with an M2 .50'.

I tried to set things up for the adults with this post and add some useful factual info for the big boys and girls to discuss. If that doesn't happen at least I tried.

Just please don't go crap on David's blog comments. He seems like a good guy and someone I hope we can treat like potential advertiser for this board.

This is probably the most informative Glock vs. 1911 blog that doesn't cr@p on one side or the other. Personally the 1911 fits me better and is more accurate for me. This just substantiates why. It would be intersting if people that had martial arts training and owned both slanted toward the Glock preference.

Agreed^^, I rolled my eyes with all the glock love at the beginning, but the rest of the article did a good job of being unbiased. I have an XD and a 1911, I don't mind Glocks, just not my preference. Ironically enough I'm more comfortable with the 1911 than any of the polymer pistols. Maybe this is why.

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I tried to set things up for the adults with this post and add some useful factual info for the big boys and girls to discuss

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Taking this a bit further...I'd like to know of the people responding to the OP, how many have actually taken professional shooting lessons and how much time they actually spend on the range training? Terms of hours (per lesson & per month on range shooting)


I've only taken 16 hours of lessons and spend at least 10 hours on a range per month. Shooting is a new hobby for me (just started shooting 2 years ago). I converted from a Beretta 92 to a Glock 19 9mm two weeks ago after my instructor explained why he uses Glock over other weapons during a lunch break. BTW the instructor has won numerous national & international shooting competitions and teaches Army SF how to shoot better. I'd say his opinion carries some weight.

just my two cents.

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Taking this a bit further...I'd like to know of the people responding to the OP, how many have actually taken professional shooting lessons and how much time they actually spend on the range training? Terms of hours (per lesson & per month on range shooting)

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I haven't read the blog yet, but I will.

To address the above, I've had 32 hours of professional training and on average I probably spend 6 hours a month at the range practicing the skills I learned during that training. Not enough, I know, but it's what I do. I hope to go to Thunder Ranch or Front Sight or something like that some day.

Someone above mentioned martial arts training. I'm not sure how that ties to gun preference, but if it does then it should be noted that I trained for three years in a traditional Okinawan martial art.

All that being said, and since I assume the blog is about grip angles and point of aim based on comments above, the Glock points very naturally for me and it's my preference for a lot of reasons. It should also be noted, perhaps, that I have only fired a 1911 on one occasion. It didn't really feel right to me, but I had pretty much shot only Glocks for the 8-9 years leading up to that so that could have something to do with it.

Now I'll go read the blog.

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I tried to set things up for the adults with this post and add some useful factual info for the big boys and girls to discuss.

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I have likely been shooting longer than the OP and Green together. And yes I have had to go into stressful situations with a firearm and yes I have shot competition.

SO, like Lee Treveno once said "ain't the arrow it is the indian".. IF you personally feel the GLock gives you the edge by all means practice and use it well. IF a 1911 gives you comfort the same applies.



*******
The better I get to know men, the more I find myself loving dogs. ~Charles de Gaulle


[This message has been edited by TwoDogs (edited 3/16/2012 8:48a).]

I've had about 60 hours of professional firearms training.

I can see how the premise of this article would be true for people that spend very little time actually learning how to shoot the tool that they depend on to save their life.

I also don't really care about what works for those people when considering what works for me.

Practice to use those little metal things on top of your slide. If you do that and execute a halfway decent trigger pull, your rounds will go where you want them too a startling amount of the time. Grip angle doesn't really matter. Do point of instinctive shooting outside of retention range and you may very well have piss poor accuracy. It's not rocket science.

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I have likely been shooting longer than the OP and Green together.

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That's entirely possible but if so I hope retirement is going well for you.

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Taking this a bit further...I'd like to know of the people responding to the OP, how many have actually taken professional shooting lessons and how much time they actually spend on the range training? Terms of hours (per lesson & per month on range shooting)

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No professional training for me, but I spend a little time rubbing elbows with guys at my gun club who are much better shooters than I am. I spend 5 to 10 hours per month shooting.


That said, I own a 1911 and a G17 (and numerous other pistols), and I like both of them.

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I’m not at the level of professional shooters, but I’ve shot better in competitions than countless guys with $2000 1911s

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yawn. Next why don't you tell me about how you take an 870 to the sporting clays range and embarrass the guys running Kreighoffs.

The article is about where/how you put your rounds on the target under stress and how grip angle can factor into that.

Damn drive on I think I got ripped off with a fake. My K80 has the "i" before the "e"

Guns are like shoes. Get the one that fits you best. unless its those pointy Mexican boots, then go barefoot .

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yawn. Next why don't you tell me about how you take an 870 to the sporting clays range and embarrass the guys running Kreighoffs.

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A good shooter with "poor" equipment will outshoot a poor shooter with good equipment every time.

Will having top of the line equipment help? Definitely, but it's not going to instantly make a bad shooter good.

Same difference with a Glock and a high end 1911 - if the person shooting the Glock knows how to put rounds on target better than the person shooting the high end 1911, the Glock is going to win. The flip side is true as well.

Just because it's a competition doesn't mean that everybody there is some badass professional Jerry Miculek type shooter.

I really don't see why this is an arguable point.

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Damn drive on I think I got ripped off with a fake. My K80 has the "i" before the "e"

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That's how I spelt it and my iPhone auto-incorrected. I didn't bother to look it up.

Good article. Loved the focus on biomechanics and natural POA.

I have 48 hours of professional training with firearms and will be adding another 24 next weekend, then another 48 in April. I'm a 1911 guy. I have owned a Glock and I shot it fine, but I chose 1911 for a number of reasons in addition to the grip angle issue.

The one thing I took issue with in the article was this...

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It is specifically an issue when stress levels are so high and pulse rates are so high that gross muscle movements and reptile brain thinking take over and your body responds with a lot more instinct than thought.

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He goes on to compare private citizens to Police officers in referencing shootings. This is not a fair comparison as most police officers aren't exactly what one might call dead eye's. (I have a legitimate source for that statement fyi and is by no means to insinuate that ALL police officers can't shoot.)

I think this quoted section above is perhaps partly true. It can be true if one acknowledges that most shooters and CHL holders don't practice nearly as much as they should. However I think it's partly pandering to the masses in that it is legitimizing a system that addresses a symptom, not the problem.

Does that make any sense at all?



[This message has been edited by phideaux_2003 (edited 3/16/2012 1:46p).]

Having seen a lot of cops shoot, and a lot of CHLers shoot, the average CHLer is marginally less horrible than the average cop.

Indeed. Like I said, cops are notoriously poor shots and most of the civilian population doesn't practice nearly as much as they should either.

But designing a product to treat a symptom instead of a problem doesn't seem like the right way to go about it to me.

Glock wasn't designed to treat a symptom.

It was designed from the ground up by a polymer engineer and a team of firearms experts trying to win competitive bids for military contracts.

The grip angle while a source of much discussion was considered to be the more "natural" angle during their testing. It's up for debate (and it's quite a debate) but it was what came out of their testing and they spent more time testing it than we'll spend debating it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glock
http://us.glock.com/heritage/timeline

[This message has been edited by 12th Non-Reg (edited 3/16/2012 2:12p).]

12th, a VERY progressive grandfather started me out at 4yrs of age. While I did not 'pay' (professional) for lessons did have some very good instruction, ie from WWII aerial gunnery instructors for wing shooting.

I suspect you can get the same argument between the Hog leg SAA and the Bisley Colt groups.

*******
The better I get to know men, the more I find myself loving dogs. ~Charles de Gaulle


[This message has been edited by TwoDogs (edited 3/16/2012 2:51p).]

Designing a gun to be accurate and function properly when someone has excited and not doing as they practiced is treating a symptom. The symptom being not doing as they practiced in a stressful situation.

The problem is not practicing enough. Wouldn't you agree that if you practice to handle a certain situation and then fail to execute when that situation presents, that it was due to lack of practice?

If I practice a guitar for 5 minutes a month, then I show up to a concert and it sucks, it's not because the guitar is poorly designed or not natural to control. It's because I didn't practice.

[This message has been edited by phideaux_2003 (edited 3/16/2012 3:05p).]