...I'll just leave this article here for you to peruse.

For this reason I have become a duck hunter and Fisherman. I get more outof calling WILD ducks or chasing WILD fish. Sure you can hunt low fence and get free range deer but to me there is nothing better than landing a big fish even if it is off a trot line or shooting a banded duck. I shot my first deer at 12, and everyone was very excited even thought it was a 2YO 9 point that probably would have been a stud but I didnt know better, it was a good deer and I wanted to shoot one that came by. Too many people get mad because you miss their standard by 5 inches or mis judge a deer by 1 year ok so next year ex. A 3.5 year old 9 point that scores 140, what? he would have been a 149 next year maybe even a 10 is it really worth it? NO. Shoot deer you can be proud of and if you can let them get old and still do this, even better. I shall hunt public now for deer

Meh. I hunt whatever Axis steps out.

it shouldn't be such a matter of points, it should be a matter of letting a good deer grow old enough that he's able to become the dominant buck and pass on his genes.

if you want to take young bucks, shoot young cull bucks.

Great article and I couldn't agree more.

I rarely see enough deer on my place to pass up any of them. The only deer I won't pull the trigger on is a doe if she's got a fawn with her or a fawn. Other than that, they're all fair game.

Of course, I learned this after passing up a good 8-pointer in an effort to subscribe to the level of QDM acceptable on the OB. I never saw another buck the rest of the season and only harvested one doe to boot that year. That doe is also the only deer I've ever harvested at my ranch since our first season hunting there in 2002.

All that said, I take issue with those who bash hunting over bait for the same reason. I own a ~1/4 section in Dickens County and have several stands, all with feeders. Myself and the other folks I hunt with out there have been skunked more times than not over the past eight years. And when I say skunked, I mean not seeing one damn deer. Just because you hunt over corn doesn't mean it's automatic. And don't chastise me for shooing a deer that doesn't qualify for your wall. I get to determine my own definition of "trophy". Besides, they all eat the same and the younger ones usually taste better.

Everybody hunts over some type of food source. It might not be a bucket of corn, but its probably a field of corn, a mineral lick, or some other attractant. Nobody is fooling anyone by saying that they don't hunt over a food source.

Deer management on our lease is set by the older members and negotiated with the land owner. Deer management is for the benefit of all the lease members and we all firmly believe in it. Why would somebody that pays for a lease or owns land not want a management system in place? After all, that is what helps increase the age of quality bucks so that they have the opportunity and time to spread their genes.

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I was hunting on a friend’s 800-acre family farm,

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He hadn’t gone 50 yards into the neighbor’s property

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So with 800 acres they are hunting/feeding fence lines?

Article is filled with logical fallacy and his illustrative points sound like complete rural urban legend

The author of the article sounds upset just because he can't age and score deer in Texas very well. Age by judging teeth can be very misleading at times, and his reference to a roman nose is a giant fallacy as it more highly heritable genetically than by sinus/cartilage growth. Ranches have feeder deer, and deer that you will never see at a feeder and will only come out to a corned road, or the type that is never seen until rut. Protein is easier to eat and a deer that spends his life grabbing meals from a feeder can have 4 yr old teeth at 6 years of age. Deer that eat succulents and forbs, will generally show more teeth wear. Second, deer are like humans and will inevitably pick a certain side of their mouth to chew food with more frequently than the other. You can compare cementum annuli to teeth wear charts from tpwd and find giant disrepancies.

For his deer that he thought was 4.5, he should have been looking into that deer's eyes and up to where his antlers start. Age shows, and so do defining characteristics of antler bases, ie more character and mass at the base. Secondly look at the neckline where it meets the brisket and how it flows.

This jack*** didn't know how to age a deer in Texas plain and simple and now he's upset about it. He should have asked the biologist to come out with him. He knew what he signed up for. I've spent months at a time staring at deer aging and scoring on the hoof 7 days a week. But I would never claim that I could go to Iowa or Nebraska and follow some stringent guidelines. A deer that looks 120 in Nebraska is probably closer to about 155 for us Texas boys.

As far as the conversation on deer management, do what makes you happy. If you don't like it, then don't go to a managed ranch.

And as far as him referencing that an outfitter was not happy. Those items should never be discussed in front of the hunter. Those are internal issues that the ranch should address when the client leaves. For example figuring out what to do so that it doesn't happen again. Bad bull on the part of the outfitter. Educate the hunter on the deer, but don't belittle the man about something(hunting) that should be fun.

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If you don't like it, then don't go to a managed ranch.

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What if it's a managed county???

I'm sick of it. And I'm not talking about managing quantities. That definitely has it's place.

I've said on here before there should be a youth exemption. And I've had people reply that there shouldn't be one, and that it teaches a kid the true meaning of hunting. I couldn't disagree more.

The true meaning of hunting is providing nourishment for your family. Everything else is sport.

I rarely like to even talk to people about deer hunting any more. Most of the time, they drone on and on about their management practices and blah, blah, blah. Most of them couldn't hunt to save their life ... literally.

Sorry for the rant, but, well, I'm not really sorry.

Hunting:Sporting::Fishing:Angling

That is all.

The way I see it, QDM has made it possible for generations to come to enjoy a better hunting experience than many of us had as youth hunters. I can remember many seasons, as a kid hunting deer, that I was ecstatic just to "SEE" a deer the entire season. I started deer hunting with my dad at the age of 7 or so and didn't harvest my first deer until I was 13. I have now been hunting deer for 34 years and have had the luxury to harvest quite a few deer, including some very nice bucks.
Back in the day, most hunters (at least where we hunted in East Texas) shot the first legal deer that they saw regardless of what it was or how old. Needless to say, we didn't see a ton of mature deer. I would give my left nut to be a kid, hunting for the first time, now days. I still hunt East Texas, but though extensive management of the herd, can now see numerous "shooter" bucks in a single day. My first boy is due to be born next month and he will grow up to learn about management and when and what to shoot. If that means he is not allowed to shoot a buck due to certain management reasons, so be it. He will learn the importance of proper herd management and it will give him a greater respect for hunting IMHO.

Edit "I can't spell. :/


[This message has been edited by bushman (edited 8/8/2011 8:14p).]

I've been fortunate enough to hunt some outstanding ranches in S. Texas, and I can't stand over the top aggressive management styles. Mistakes are going to happen and in the land of high $$$ deer leases you should KNOW what you are getting into when you sign on and be prepared if you make a judgement error. As an outfitter it is my job to educate a hunter on WHY we want a certain deer to age and why it is ok to shoot certain 8 pointers as "trash". IMO QDM has allowed some S. Texas ranches to have BOTH volume and quality of deer. It is not uncommon to see over 50 deer on a single hunt on my lease, however you may only see 2-3 mature bucks out of that bunch. We harvest so many does and cull bucks that most clients get bonus deer for "free" and more meat than they know what to do with. Deer hunting is supposed to be fun and about the outdoors, as an outfitter I want my hunters to be succesful, but I also want them to learn about the habitat and fauna that is unique to S. Texas. I want my hunters to leave as friends and enjoy their time away from work and stress.

DVM

Like the high/low fenced debate, I see both sides of the issues and agree with both sides fo the issues.

I do think that the management fad probably has been taken overboard in more than one place - if you need to have a cheat sheet or a ranch rep with you to give you the OK to pull the trigger, then it's too far. Additionally, if you are the only one managing and are surrounded by those that don't, then your best efforts are but a drop in a 5 gallon bucket.

One thing that managment has done to folks like me, who don't have a land nor a lease, is pretty much completely price out being able to deer hunt period. I really enjoy going when I get the opportunity, but those opportunities are few and far between and generally only come on invites to take doe. I don't complain and always have a hell of a good time, but the idea of getting a 10 pointer that I'd be proud of (one that many of you folks wouldn't bother hanging on a wall) is something that is more or less a pipe dream to me - because paying $1500 or more for a single deer is just outrageous to me.

I'm sure that there is a happy medium - after all one of our biggest responsibilities is to ensure that the activity we love can be passed on to future generations. But when hunting is more and more becoming the sport of the elite, like in Europe, then we collectively aren't putting the greater good first and foremost.

qdm is taking a toll, but in a roundabout sort of way. let's clarify one thing first. everyone mentions letting the better genetics be passed on and blah blah blah. everyone minces words here. don't say that the superior deer genes are being passed on. be blunt and say that the deer with the bigger racks are passing on the potential for deer with big racks. a larger b&c score is not the same as superior genetics *unless* your only requirement for a superior deer is that it has a bigger rack. for all we know, there are ranches out there that are breeding deer with inferior genetics from a long term survivability standpoint.

back to the ruining hunting standpoint. hunting, at least from a texas standpoint, will be impacted by two things: cost and access. getting the bigger rack has become a game of sorts. you pay for the privilege for the most part. those who have access to family or friends lands should count themselves lucky. look at how expensive relatively worthless land out in the middle of nowhere has become. you either inherit or pay for access. hunting is losing the rich legacy passed down from one generation to the next in favor of commercialism.

There are THOUSANDS of acres that are for lease all over East Texas that don't cost squat. My lease in Red River Co. costs us under $500 a year for a year round lease with some damn big deer on it. Sure it has it's downside, but it is cheap which is what everyone always *****es about on here. You have to work damn hard to get a buck, especially a big buck, but they are there. We have no elect or water, but we make due with what we have and enjoy the hell out of it.

I would kill to get back on a lease in the Hill country or South Texas, but they are not financially in the budget right now. If you want to hunt the opportunity is there, you just have to look for it. It may not be what you dream of, but it is a chance to get out in nature and hunt deer.

bushman, tell me more about this $500 lease thing. I've been practicing with my bow, I got my hunters ed last year. That lease is in my price range, and I got camping gear and a honda eu2000 and don't mind roughing it. (I admit that eu2000 and "roughing it" aren't exactly synonyms). Do you know of any lease openings out that direction? And I'm more interested in does/meat than trophies.

[This message has been edited by shiftyandquick (edited 8/8/2011 9:38p).]

Our place is full this season, it is a little late now, but there are several openings every year. This is my third year on it and it is a nice place. The Gen will help, and a trailer would be optimal for comfort. I will keep my ears open if I hear of any last minute openings there or any where nearby.

TBH has several on the classifieds section right now, a couple of which are reasonably priced.

Interesting conversation. I've helped a lot of ranches figure out what they want to do, and how to get there. I couldn't ever afford to hunt most of them. I'm perfectly happy helping with does. I have a 2 yo now and can't wait to get him out in a few years.--I will note, on a lot of the WMA's it is really easy to get a kid out on standby on the youth hunts. If you actually listen to the staff, you probably have about a 50/50 shot at something.

Carry on.

"Everybody hunts over some type of food source. It might not be a bucket of corn, but its probably a field of corn, a mineral lick, or some other attractant. Nobody is fooling anyone by saying that they don't hunt over a food source."
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Simply not true, and sounds like an attempt to justify someone's choice of hunting method. Unless hunting in (not "over" a post oak/pin oak forest is also included in the broad brush definition above, and I'm sure there are other examples.

thanks Bushman.

As an admitted super lightweight deer hunter (haven't hunted since high school around Cat Spring on private land), this whole management practice intimidates me going to the lease with my buds. I honestly don't know a whole lot about all the management stuff, other than the obvious, I just see the book at the ranch house with loads of "do not shoot!" bucks in it and I think to myself, "No way I can remember all this crap." So I mostly stick to dove hunting these days.

I want to go deer hunting cause I love venison and would love to learn more, maybe I'll give it a whirl this year and just ask a lot of questions.

It all boils down to competition. The context of it may be different from one person to the next, but it's still just a game. One guy may want the extreme challenge of killing a large buck on public ground through scouting, etc.; the next may want them spoon fed to him on a high fence ranch. The question is "who am I competing with?" OBTW, asking it is a moot point if you don't answer honestly.

It's really not that different from football - an offensive tackle weighs a lot more now and is faster than one from the 80's, who was moreso than a guy from the 50's. Who questions the competitive advantages of those qualities? Who wouldn't want an OL with the biggest, fastest guys they could find or afford? Same thing has happened in deer hunting.

There's no such thing as a 200 lb limit football league, and there is no limit to what some people will spend on a deer.

txaggie02

Don't be so quick to judge.

Honestly, I have never shot a deer under a feeder, at a lick or other food source. I have always set up my stands in areas where I have found deer trails and along brush lines at ravines.

To each his own, but I don't believe in shooting anything coming in to food, except for hogs.

I equate it to an Alien coming to earth and putting up a stand across the street from an HEB and waiting for the fat ones to show up and start grazing. It will happen sooner or later, because they have to eat.

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Everybody hunts over some type of food source. It might not be a bucket of corn, but its probably a field of corn, a mineral lick, or some other attractant. Nobody is fooling anyone by saying that they don't hunt over a food source.

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I don't...

I've hunted for a long time and I've never harvested a single animal, not a single one.

I have killed quite a few though, and they are tasty.

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Everybody hunts over some type of food source. It might not be a bucket of corn, but its probably a field of corn, a mineral lick, or some other attractant. Nobody is fooling anyone by saying that they don't hunt over a food source.

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Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.

To the extent that there is probably something edible underfoot or in the brush next to a deer when it is shot, then YES, everyone IS hunting a food source. But then you can have a wreck in front of Jack In The Box on your way to Hooters, too.

If you aren't having the time of your life while out deer hunting, well you're probably doing something wrong.

RR88....I assume that you do see a difference between hunting deer in native habitat versus camped out over a feeder, a small food plot or an attractant.

We somewhat manage our place and we try to only shoot mature bucks, but if there is a younger person or someone there who hasn't had the opportunity to do much hunting, they can basically shoot whatever buck they want as long as they get to leave with a huge smile on their face and want to go hunting again. I've been on places before and have seen people get chewed out for shooting a buck a year too young or a few inches too small and, to me, that starts to take the fun out of hunting. Just my opinion though.

So, if you are hunting the rut, and specifically rattling/grunting, are you hunting a food source?

This is always an interesting debate and everyone has an opinion on it. So here's mine-

My father and my uncle bought our place in the late 70's. Back then, you were lucky to even see a deer or two during the season. We pretty much shot everything we could. After college I moved to south Texas and was lucky enough to get on a lease in Webb County. A great lease and I learned a great deal from my fellow hunters on that lease. About ten years later, I move back to north Texas and began hunting the family place again. The number of deer had gotten better but the quality was not there. We began using management practices I learned while in south Texas. Our deer population is much better than it used to be. The quality of our deer has increased as well. We take a 150+ class buck at least every other year off of our little place.

I have gotten to where taking any deer does not satisfy me anymore. I like and want to hunt horns as do the rest of my hunting partners(brother, BIL and my sister). I also enjoy venison as does the rest of my family. There are years that me or one of the kids does not kill a deer and we do not get any venison. That is the price we pay for wanting to hunt trophies.

I guess the moral of my rant is that QDM practices have increased the number of deer on our place and increased the quality. It may not be for everyone, but we are in it for the long haul and want to sustain and increase the number of deer we can hunt. We can only do that by using some QDM practices.

I obviously chucked this grenade and then shut the door and ran so I'll come out and play for a bit this morning.

I took a couple of things from the article:

1) The guy entered into a guided hunt with specific stipulations, only to later beech about those stipulations because he couldn't get a kill on camera to put a nice tidy bow on his TV show. He admits he purposefully shot a deer well under their management guidelines. I hope the outfitter goes after him any way possible and lets all of his sponsors know. Spread lies, dirty rumors, I don't care. He's a craptastic POS.

2) I don't try to push my deer philosophies on others. But I do have a s***load of personal philosophies. And it really has nothing to do with inches. There is a big old mature 7 point (he's actually an 8 with split brows) that I would shoot on opening day if he shows himself. He won't be within 60 inches of several of the deer on another place I hunt. But I'll happily punch my tag if I see him. I like mature deer. Young bucks are stupid. The reason you see so many young bucks is a) there are more of them; & b) they are dumb as crap. Where I live there is very little challenge in killing a 120" deer.

3) I don't mind "meat" hunters. But don't claim to be a "meat" hunter and then refuse to shoot does and only want horns. Sure it sounds great, but that ain't how it works. Shoot a doe. Hell, shoot 5. I do. They're really damn tasty. Certainly better than a nasty 300# buck. I don't care if you shoot a 1.5 year old 8 point. But if you do it every year I'd better NEVER hear you beech about how you don't ever see big deer. It's because you kill them WAY before they can get big.

4) I don't manage deer. You can't manage deer. At least not until you begin to treat them like livestock and collect semen, AI, palpate, keep them in a little pen, etc. And at that point they are livestock and are NOT wildlife. I personally think it should be illegal to high fence anything less than about 8,000-10,000 for the purpose of keeping deer in. I do manage "for" deer. I try to provide extra mineral, a source of water if its super dry and I try to harvest the hell out of does to avoid big winter kills. Our local ag practices and native browse take care of the food so it's unnecessary to supplemental feed except in the worst cold snaps. We are a 1 buck state which has it's positives and negatives. There are a lot of crapper bucks that need to be whacked and if I haven't filled my buck tag by Thanksgiving I will shoot a cull buck. I also try to get kids on deer and specifically target some of the bucks that simply need to go.

5) I don't reject the idea that everyone hunts over a food source because as RR88 and sunchaser have put it above native browse is everywhere. In almost any environment there is never a stretch of 10' feet where there isn't something that a deer will eat. I absolutely DO reject the fact that hunting over a feeder is the same as hunting a cornfield. They both provide corn to deer and that is where the similarities stop. A feeder goes off specifically when you want it to and provides a limited amount of food that is quickly eaten. Deer learn that they have to be there exactly when it goes off or the birds/coons/pigs eat it before they do. Also, try comparing a 10' x 10' feed pen to a 160 acre corn field. At the pen you know a deer is going to come into a 100 sq. foot area. It's pretty easy to cover the coming & going of a deer in 100 sq. feet. The other is SEVEN MILLION square feet. 800 yards by 800 yards. Good luck covering seven million square feet of 24/7/365 buffet with a bow. To even intimate that the two are similar, much less identical is simply retarded.

...and I say all that readily admitting that I have hunted over a corn feeder and would have no qualms doing it again. Hell, we have a couple of "doebusters-esque" (<-- no capitalization and "esque" means no trademark infringement) outings a year where we just dump big piles of corn and start flinging arrows left and right. I have no shame, it's fun. But where I hunt it ain't a good way to see or kill a mature buck.

...long story short (I'm afraid my story is already too long to be deemed short) I have 0 problem with people instituting management practices as long as everyone knows the rules ahead of time. Also, it's important to know that your neighbors likely won't play by the same rules. I have a bigger problem with county-by-county or statewide restrictions. I know that I have let very promising young deer pass just to allow another hunter to kill them. But you know what? That hunter got a huge thrill out of shooting a 130" deer, and good for him/her. I wouldn't have gotten as stoked. I also know that if I let that deer walk there is at least a chance he'll be 150" next year. But if I shoot him he's damn well dead. I'll take a chance over nothing, even if it's a slim one.

Hunters fighting with others hunters... Now that is good for the sport.