I have a buddy that has a small place south of Smithville and wants to place some coastal. The question is, is it to late to plant or should he wait until next spring?

Soil temperature has to be at least 70F with plenty of moisture to get bermuda seeds to germinate. In the case of coastal, you'll also need sprigs and the best are available in spring.

This is not a good time of year to plant grass seed, except rye or fescue.

Sprigging of Coastal starts in late Feb/early Mar.
The improved varieties (Jiggs and Tifton 85) are even better at overall forage yield, and spread even more rapidly than Coastal).

For later opportunities (Apr-May), you can plant "tops" from Jiggs or Tifton.

Has he considered native forage grasses like native bluestems and such? http://gardeninglaunchpad.com/txnativegrass.html Great habitat for quail and doesn't require as much fertilizer. Sometimes just disking will allow dormant natives to come up. Unfortunately, this is a spring activity because they are dormant in winter. Once coastal has taken hold, it is really quite expensive to try to restore back to native prairie.

Thanks for the feedback, I have forwarded the responses to him.

OK, here's the scoop:

October is an EXCELLENT time to plant Jiggs if you have the right equipment. YOU MUST significantly cover the tops (more on that later) and compact the soil with a weighted roller if you don't want them to dry out.

You want the biggest, nastiest, ugliest, toughest tops you can get. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT. Diameter and hardness matter. Don't worry about leaves; the part you want doesn't have green leaves on it. Shouldn't be a problem this year as everyone's cows can't keep up and the pastures are pretty sh****. You really can't get tops big enough until later in the year, anyway.

Your buddy's land (sandy/loamy I would assume around Smithville) needs to be worked up pretty well, almost to the point where you could row crop it or plant a garden. After working the soil up, you need to set the disks on a disk plow/harrow as straight as possible. You also need to run a weighted roller on the back of the plow if you can, but that can be done separately.

The best method is grabbing armfulls of loose tops from the windrow and throwing them in a trailer (say hello to the fireants for me), but most of the time you will get baled green tops if you buy them. Time is critical. You need to fluff them up as much as possible, then toss them in a manure spreader and run so fast you almost can't stay in the tractor seat. It doesn't look like you're putting all that many tops out but it's plenty. Alternatively, you can have a couple of guys tossing them out by hand out of a lowboy trailer. I suggest driving slower or you will have some p*ssed off help.

Run the tractor over the tops and the disks will push the tops down into the plowed ground. The roller compacts the ground and seals it off... if we get any rain this winter, the properly covered tops will survive until spring (if they are old/big enough) and you'll have a great stand.

I have had Jiggs tops such planted that survived '06 and they are so thick that you can't hardly walk through them. Which brings up another point, nothing will grow where you plant this stuff other than jiggs (maybe winter fescue/rescuegrass if it is grazed down enough).

Great for cows, but keep some areas native for the birds if you so desire.

I have heard that the similar methods work for Tifton, but I cannot concur. I have planted about 250 acres in the manner prescribed in wet years and dry and have complete coverage with no re-planting. With a light dose of chicken litter, I had some runners grow 8"+ in a day. I would make more claims, but no one would believe me. Jiggs is amazing stuff. My experience with tifton is that it makes a little bush and does not spread nearly as aggressively, and does not tolerate competition as well. Jiggs takes over. It is a weed.

For reference, this is all in Gonzales and Bee counties.

ETA: OK, really? S h a g g y is censored?


[This message has been edited by SWCBonfire (edited 10/29/2010 5:02p).]

Coastal bermuda is the most awful crap known to man. I wish it didn't exist. It was (until fireants) almost singlehandedly responsible for the destruction of bobwhite quail populations.

I hate that s*** and if I were king for a day would put all my serfs to work wiping it from the face of the earth.

quote:

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I hate that s*** and if I were king for a day would put all my serfs to work wiping it from the face of the earth.

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You eat it yourself every time you order a steak.

sean, i here you.

however, the beef industry thinks otherwise.

"My experience with tifton is that it makes a little bush and does not spread nearly as aggressively, and does not tolerate competition as well. Jiggs takes over. It is a weed."
Tis true Tifton does not compete as well with established grasses/weeds....but given the opportunity, it spreads like crazy. You might be able to spot it by a clump/bush area, but then you'll see the 5ft+ runners in all directions.
Jiggs is a great choice.

It's frustrating when I get repeated calls from landowners who have "great grass, but no quail". Coastal may be great for cows, but has virtually no wildlife value. Conversion to "improved pastures" is probably the best explanation for the decline of quail populations.

While I can see where an improved (Coastal or otherwise) pasture is no asset for quail, the thousands of acres that remain untouched (native grasses, brushy fencelines, mesquite flats, etc) also lost the quail...but have fire ants.

Quail population decline started 15-20 years prior to the introduction of RIFA.

Also keep in mind the effects of overgrazing on the "native" pastures that have pushed the "native " pastures towards more of a monoculture.

FYI--RIFA impact on wildlife is one of my specialties

[This message has been edited by ursusguy (edited 10/29/2010 9:52p).]

What about up here in Kansas where we don't have fire ants? or Oklahoma? These states (including Texas of course) used to have more bobwhites than anywhere else in the country. Why did the bobwhite numbers start severely declining as people began "improving" their pastures? Coastal bermuda, brome, you name it. Doesn't matter which craptastic hay grass it is. If you plant it fence to fence your quail are gone. It's too thick for them to move through and you've "cleaned up" all the underbrush, plum, hedgerows. ...then *poof*, no quail.

I like steak, but I consider venison an acceptable substitute. Give me good quail hunting over a steak any day.

We're getting off topic, but 15-20 yrs of quail decline prior to fire ants would be 1955-1960 for much of east and central Texas.
Lots of quail still around in the 70's..as the fire ants kept marching in.
Shoot, I remember Myrex as one of the first broadcast baits...too little, too late.

No doubt habitat change has occurred, but the wholesale loss of the quail population sure coincided with the RIFA presence.

...and Kansas and Oklahoma?

The bobs up there just heard about the fireants in Texas and died out of fear?

Overall long term decline did start in the late 50's going into the 60's.---I was deeply involved in this issue for a while. I still have most of the research paper on the matter at my office. Keep in mind some of our previously high quail population areas didn't have RIFA until almost 1985, and the quail population was already in decline.

RIFA certainly don't help, but direct impact by them has been shown to not be nearly as great as folks like to think. Where they have their biggest impact on quail is on their food supply the first 10 days of their life. They knock down the soft bodied insect population.

Now lets compound the issue. Take a sweep net and walk through an improved pasture, now take that sweep net and walk through a properly managed native pasture. Look at the contrast between the native pasture and the improved pasture.

One thing that led to declines prior to improved grasses was loss of edge. in the old days farmers left swaths of uncut/plowed along fencerows and such. when everybody started going to "clean farming" all of the edge effect was destroyed
Not to mention we destroyed all but around 1% of the Texas Blackland Prairie Region when cotton came to town. thats around 12million acres under cultivation at the time

I have been spraying Bermuda for 3 years on my food plots, and still have some in a couple of pockets. Next year, I will finish it.

If I was a cattle rancher, I may feel different. I want better habitat for my wildlife, so no more Bermuda.

If the OP's friend has just bought some "small acreage" is this really a question of a commercial cattle operation? If it's just a weekend place with some cattle on it or a hobby farm, then why not go with grass that has more well rounded benefit?

Excellent Thread Topic!

This makes me want to go by Douglas King Seed Co. here in SA and see what they have for Native Grass seed mix for pastures... mostly just to experiment a little.

Considering it was 28 degrees here this morning and white as a sheet I don't think planting grass is on the table anymore... October is a great time to plant. You still may have good luck as there will be plenty of warm weather between now and winter but finding tops will be tough.

If the decline can be traced back to the 50's, then the first thing that comes to my mind was the fact that it didn't rain for 7 years. Populations (quail, livestock and people), pastures, grasses haven't recovered since then in a lot of west Texas... irrepairable damage was done in the 50's. Blackland cotton cultivation went back WAY before then, most of the farmhouses you see that are still standing were built in the 1900's-1920's.

It's been estimated that by 1920ish, 80% of the native grasses of the Blackland Prairie was already gone.

Ask the Agronomist(TM) says .....

I have hesitated to weigh in on this subject, but here goes .....

I'll start with planting hybrid bermudagrass, a subject which I knw just a little about. I hesitate to tell anyone to plant bermudagrass after 10/1. It's not the amount of warmth you get, but the shortness of the days combined with the possibility of frost within 30-45 days. With the short day length, even Coastal has a hard time making enough growth to be safe from damage with early cold weather. $150+/acre is a big investment to lose by being too anxious. In East Texas, go ahead and get your soil samples NOW. If lime is needed (it almost always is in the Piney Woods area) get it out in December and disk it in. YOU WILL NEVER GET ANOTHER GOOD CHANCE TO WORK LIME DOWN IN THE PROFILE LIKE YOU WILL NOW. Don't poor boy it. Do it right. Next, get ready to put you pre-plant phosphorus/potassium, and nitrogen out in February and work it in with the last disking. Do not, I repeat, DO NOT LET ANY OF THE LOCAL YOKELS TALK YOU INTO "SEEING IF YOU GET A STAND" BEFORE FERTILIZING!!!!!!! You wouldn't pull a baby calf off of momma to see if it was any good before letting it nurse, would you? I am a fan of Tifton more than Jiggs. I saw some Jiggs stands get nailed last winter with the cold. It reminds me a bunch of the old "Alecia" variety - long runners that die back to the original "mother" plant when it gets really cold. Tifton can be planted from sprigs or tops (late spring for tops). By all means, go visit your local NRCS office to see if you are eligible for cost-share under the EQIP program for the planting next spring. 65% reimbursement (more for beginning farmers) beats eating all of it yourself.

Now for the rest of the subject .... Hybrid bermudagrass is a desert for wldlife. Period. It can be improved in East Texas by overseeding clover and ryegrass, but that really doesn't do quail populations much good. As far as "eliminating it from the countryside", that is utter nonsense. What native grass can you plant in March and be bailing hay off of in July? Even if all goes right, native grasses will be doing darn good to give you a stand you can graze in the dormant season of the planting year. Most times it is at least 2 years to get a good stand (I have supervised the planting of 10s of thousands of acres of it). To top it off, even in East Texas, you will do well to graze an animal unit to 8 or 10 acres on natives vs. 1 au to 3 or 4 acres on coastal, even with moderate fertility. When working with landowners, I usually look at what is there to begin with. If there is a chance of saving a half ass native stand, I will recommend grazing management and time to preserve the natives. If they are shot and the manager wants volume, I will go with improved grasees.

By the way, quail do not know the difference between a kleingrass bunch and a little bluestem bunch when it comes to nesting, and don't care if they are eating a bundleflower seed or a crimson clover seed. Habitat variety is still the key. Food, shelter, loafing areas, nesting cover, and bugs are the keys - whether "native" or introduced.

I never said anything about kleingrass, but that is a good point.

I spend more time trying to tell folks how to kill bermuda. But that is mainly due to the difference between the agencies.

A lot of the information I know on the matter came from Mr. Linnux.

At least with klein grass you get a whole lot of seed for the plant, whereas coastal has none.