I don't respect the guy at all. The white rhino is protected (so it had to be an illegal or can-hunt), and it is irresponsible to hunt male-lions and grizzly bears (both are at-risk species). He's painting a bad picture of hunters everywhere; real sportsmen hunt in a responsible manner within legal and moral standards.


Amateurs practice until they get it right, Professionals practice until they can't get it wrong.

[This message has been edited by Sgt Poore (edited 6/28/2010 11:41a).]

There are legal ways to go about having a white rhino trophy in your trophy room.

For instance... on my Dad's second trip to South Africa, he darted a rhino. They had a cow who's horn grew more forward than up. When she would nudge her calves along, she would often poke them with her horn. She lost calves several years in a row to the injuries. Under the supervision of two vets and an armed PH, he darted it from less than fifteen yards. The vets, and their team then sawed off a great deal of her horn. Dad got to make casts of the horn before and after removal (he's a taxidermist) and is making a replica based off the casts.



"If guns cause crime, all of mine are defective."
- Ted Nugent

That doesn't explain how he got the hide for the mount chief.

Like fish, the replica is a fiberglass mold which is then painted.



"If guns cause crime, all of mine are defective."
- Ted Nugent

Isle,
That is a great point, but looking upon this guy's excessive trophy room, I am having a hard time believing that this is the case here. Perhaps it is. Also, the African elephant is protected. That is two species now that cannot be legally hunted. He is quickly climbing the ranks of "luckiest sportsman alive" with his ability to be in unique situations that allow him to take these species.


Amateurs practice until they get it right, Professionals practice until they can't get it wrong.

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He is quickly climbing the ranks of "luckiest sportsman alive" with his ability to be in unique situations that allow him to take these species.

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Money can buy you a helluva lot of luck.

I won't say that I think he truly "hunted" for all of those critters, but is it possible that he took them all fair chase? Sure. ...and everyone's definition of what "hunting" means is completely different. I bet you'd find 100 variations on this board alone.

Not to defend the guy... but how long has it been impossible to legally take an Elephant? He may have been one of the "lucky" few to take one before it was outlawed. Or, perhaps the elephant, along with some of the other trophies came from his father or grandfather. I would be happy to hang my fathers trophies in my room.

I guess I just seriously doubt that he illegally killed it, had it stuffed, and then took pictures of it and sent it around the internet. Also, it would be VERY difficult to import the ivory.

In good taste or not, I would imagine everything in that room is legal.

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...and everyone's definition of what "hunting" means is completely different. I bet you'd find 100 variations on this board alone.

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Exactly... some people actually think that their dogs "hunt".

[This message has been edited by IsleAg11 (edited 6/28/2010 12:05p).]

Isle, you are totally right about having fake mounts; but on that accord all of these could be replicas of darted animals.

I guess ya'll are right. I just tend to think people (especially ones with money) are stupid and assume the worst. That being said, if he killed all of those trophies... Some are still pretty irresponsible (conservation-wise) and in bad taste. I think most of us can agree to that.

Perhaps stupid isn't the right word. You get what I'm saying though.



Amateurs practice until they get it right, Professionals practice until they can't get it wrong.

[This message has been edited by Sgt Poore (edited 6/28/2010 12:14p).]

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Some are still pretty irresponsible (conservation-wise)

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You might not understand or have a flawed definition of conservation.

Sgt. Poore,

You are incorrect. The white rhino can be legally hunted in South Africe. The annual harverst is close to 2000, I belive. The black rhino is highly protected. There are perhaps 1-3 animals taken on the entire continent at a huge price tag.\

Elephants are hunted legally in most countries in Africa. Many countries such as Botswana are over populated and experiencing habitat destruction at an alarming rate.

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some people actually think that their dogs "hunt".

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Exactly. And then some of us know!

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You might not understand or have a flawed definition of conservation.

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Indeed... there is a difference between conservation and preservation.

35,

Had to do some Googling, but:

African elephant - 400,000 (1970), 10,000 (2008)
All African lions- 300,000+ (1980), 20,000 (2009)
Grizzly Bear- on the rebound with 16,000 (2009)
White Rhino- Also on the rebound with 17,000 (2008)

The Grizzly and White Rhino are gaining in number from less than 1,000 just twenty years ago due to conservation efforts. My definition may not fit yours, but it in no way lacks merit or understanding.

I do admit that these animals can be hunted with the right amount of cash and connections legally. I am just saying that "I" find it irresponsible to do so. Again, I love to hunt, as many of you do. I just can't stomach what this guy represents. Not trying to flame or sound like some hippie tree-hugger that I'm not.



Amateurs practice until they get it right, Professionals practice until they can't get it wrong.

agree with Sgt Poor

Grizz can be hunted in canada.

And Russia... I would love to do that. Mainly just to laugh at their accents for a week.

I'm a die hard hunter and outdoorsman, and I agree with others...that's a bit excessive.

Now, his gun vault, on the other hand...

Figure 17: Botswana elephant estimates
1960 Population 7,884
Rate of growth % 6.625
Year Estimate Model
1987 51,000 47,512
1988 41,000 50,659
1989 60,000 54,015
1990 50,000 57,594
1991 65,000 61,410
1992 69,000 65,478
1993 77,000 69,816
1994 56,000 74,441
1995 80,000 79,373
1996 78,000 84,631
1997 100,000 90,238
1998 96,216
1999 107,000 102,591
2000 121,000 109,387
2001 117,000 116,634
2002 124,361
2003 123,000 132,600
2004 141,385
2005 150,752

Table 4c: Botswana elephant population estimates. Dry season estimates rounded to nearest 1,000 animals.

imagine if he had donated half of those hunts to majesty outdoors...

I think there is a big difference between what "can" be hunted and what "should" be hunted. I wouldn't kill 90% of what that dude is displaying.

What I was getting at, was that sometimes (not all, obviously) individual animals that are under strict conservation efforts are targeted to be culled to increase the evolutionary plasticity of the species.

These animals could have been hunted under those type permits.


If they were, you could argue that he not only helped the survivability of the species, but also preserved the animal's grandeur.


Maybe this wasnt the case here. We are both now speculating. Unless you have a way of communicating with this man about how he hunted these animals, it will unfortunately stay speculation.

Sgt Poore and others

WITHOUT sportsmen paying to hunt the critters there would be no critters to hunt. The White Rhino was on the verge of extinction and due to SCI and numerous other conservation groups the population in S. Africa is actually very stable and growing. Elephants, Lions, Bears (excluding polar bears who until just recently are now on the endangered species list due to habitat loss and NOT overhunting), etc. all have VALUE to the local economies. Therefore they are protected and managed so that foreign $$ is spent in these countries.

Kenya is one of the few African nations that allows NO sports hunting and is the most poached country in Africa, White Rhino populations here have been decimated by poachers. The conservation groups do what they can, but the locals see the value in a Rhino horn on the black market and risk death to make a quick buck.

In countries like S. Africa, Zimbabwe, Tananzia, namibmia, Mozambique etc. where sport hunting is allowed the locals receive jobs, $$, and food from hunting. Having hunted in Africa I have seen the anti-poaching patrols that these ranches employ, they are uniformed and armed employees of these ranches. Just to give an example of the type of mangament that occurs....the ranch we hunted was 125,000 acres and was home to 445 bull elephant and 475 giraffes. The annual quota was 2 giraffe bulls and 2-4 bull elephant annually. The elephant each contribute $27k in funds to the local economy. The local tribes in Zimbabwe receive a significant portion of these funds, not to mention ALL the meat. These monies help provide schools and healthcare in tribal communities. Now not all lands are owned by local tribes, but any hunting that occurs on tribal land directly benefits them.

This argument has no right or wrong answer IMO, BUT if you are going to defend one side of the fence do so with accurate facts.

DVM

I am sorry, I made a typo. The African Elephant is not down to 10,000 total. That is just in Chad. The total for the entire African continent is around 400- 500,000. Not bad. They were at 27 million at the turn of the twentieth century. Dwindled down to a few thousand before ivory bans became common in 1969. Right around the time that Meaux's charts start to gain in numbers. Ivory bans are (semantics aside) a conservation/ preservation tool. That being said, the animal is still on most list as a threatened species.


Amateurs practice until they get it right, Professionals practice until they can't get it wrong.

DVM,
Those are conservation techniques used that I agree with (culling, etc...) However, my facts are not wrong and I apologize for hitting a nerve. I made a mistake on my numbers and owned up to it. But, that being said, I still can't do it. Did this guy take them legally? I don't know. Do I trust a guy who has enough money and will to create what he did? Personally, I do not. I don't buy the whole, "he could be saving that species, ecology, tribe with his hunting" argument though. I just don't see a single hunt solving the area's financial problems. Does it hurt? No. I understand it, but do not agree with it. Again, I am not attacking anyone (except for the classlessness of the pictures above), I just don't agree with it. As I am just a pro on Texags, I am out of posts for the day. Good talking to all of you. Hope your day goes well.


Amateurs practice until they get it right, Professionals practice until they can't get it wrong.

[This message has been edited by Sgt Poore (edited 6/28/2010 1:49p).]

[This message has been edited by Sgt Poore (edited 6/28/2010 1:49p).]

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The white rhino is protected (so it had to be an illegal or can-hunt

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Also, the African elephant is protected. That is two species now that cannot be legally hunted.

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However, my facts are not wrong

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Umm, yeah they are.

isit just me or are a lot of outdoor board posters getting cabin fever and getting testy... this is the third thread with such quarreling... i think some people need some deer season...

Good post by DVM but he missed one key point.

Every country in Africa is dirt ass poor. The small number of "game cops" are the only thing standing between certain species of wildlife being completely decimated by poachers. And can you even fault the poachers? I doubt anyone here has ever experienced life as an uneducated native African living in squalor. A set of ivory tusks might feed your family for a year. Anyway, those game cops salaries are paid by licenses one must obtain to hunt said animals. Without the hunting revenue, without the licensing revenue, there's no money to fund game law enforcement.

The vast majority of animals hunted in Africa are plains game anyway. Hunting elephant, rhino, lion, cheetah, leopard, etc, is very, very expensive to the point that only a handful of people the world over can afford to do it. They do much more good than they do harm.

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isit just me or are a lot of outdoor board posters getting cabin fever and getting testy... this is the third thread with such quarreling... i think some people need some deer season...

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Unless you speed this summer along and get hunting/football season here faster, they keep you thoughts to yourself Nancy.

Another possibility is that he didn't actually shoot all of those animals. He could have purchased some of the mounts (ones with impressive/unique horns/antlers, extremely rare specimens, etc.) just to have one to round out the collection.

As mentioned, some of those sheep and ibex live in extremely remote areas, and you have to be well funded and in very good shape to even get near them.

Heck, the Bongo both probably cost over $100,000 apiece to hunt, and I've heard that most people that hunt them have several unsuccessful trips before they actaully even see one, much less get a shot off. They live in the jungles of central Africa that put the Big Thicket to shame.

[This message has been edited by Log (edited 6/28/2010 3:19p).]

tacky

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Unless you speed this summer along and get hunting/football season here faster, they keep you thoughts to yourself Nancy.

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sorry, i really enjoy swimsuit season... maybe a pool with some hotties would cure your ills

For the record, I think the room is awful. I don't like when someone jams that many animals together. I think it looks like a warehouse and you lose the individual beauty of the species. It is an instance where less can actually be more. This is my opinion only and if the guy likes his room, more power to him.

As far as my previous posts, I was merely addressing the inaccuracies of Sgt. Poore's claims. Most of his claims were emotion based. He is entitled to his opinion, but he was repeating falsehoods that are dangerous to hunters and animals. These myths have been repeated to the point that even avid hunters believe them.