If I carried without a license in a city where I new the crime was horrible (i.e. new orleans), would I go to jail if I had to pull it out for protection if someone tried to cut/shoot me?

You took the gun from the robber and used it against him. Yes you did.

Would you rather be cut/shot?

Not trying to be smart. There are a lot of variables to your question. If you break the law you will answer for it. Defending your safety does not alleviate you from adhering to the law.

oh ok, just curious. How bout a knife? Are there any known laws on carrying a knife for protection? If not, where's the best place to have it accessible if in a "situation"?

Who cares? I would go to jail for defending myself instead of being killed.

If you are looking for protection I think you would be better off carrying a taser or pepper spray than a knife.

Pepper spray and a collapsible baton - those are vicious and a lot easier to use than a little 3-5'in. pocket knife.


Spray in the eyes and then crack across the face/upper back or front of the knee/shin. Fight over.

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You took the gun from the robber and used it against him. Yes you did.

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Unless the gun was purchased illegally or never registered, they (the police) can just run the serial # and see that you own it.


[This message has been edited by BoyNamedSue (edited 4/9/2010 1:34p).]

What?? No they can't. guns aren't registered. The SN write up is just for the store's records. The FBI/ATF/TX Govt has no idea what guns you own.

OK, wasn't sure - figured they could run the #'s and at least see who/where the gun was purchased?

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What?? No they can't. guns aren't registered. The SN write up is just for the store's records. The FBI/ATF/TX Govt has no idea what guns you own.

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Wow. you trust the government a lot.

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Wow. you trust the government a lot.

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???

If the gun is left at the scene, it can be traced by the SN. The ATF/FBI/PoPo/etc. goes Glock, who says they sold it to Cabelas. Cabelas says they sold it to you. Which is why it is a good idea to get a bill of sale when you buy/sell a firearm. Or a lost/stolen firearm report on file with the local police in case you ever have one go missing.

If there is no gun left at the scene, but there are recovered bullets, they can still trace it to you if your gun ever turned up in another criminal investigation.

"Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6."

[This message has been edited by Log (edited 4/9/2010 1:51p).]

Now, if you buy a pistol with cash either at a gun show or from someone else direct....that's different.

Wow, I didn't even think of pepper spray/taser/batton. Thanks. I wonder if I can find a batton in walmart or academy???

And isn't the store who sold the gun to you required to keep the bill of sale for a specific period of time. And aren't they required to surrender such information to LEO?



"If guns cause crime, all of mine are defective."
- Ted Nugent

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If there is no gun left at the scene, but there are recovered bullets, they can still trace it to you if your gun ever turned up in another criminal investigation.

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Nope. That's fantasy CSI junk. They can match calibers but all evidence is circumstantial. Your gun doesn't mark itself on the casing.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/how-to/become-an-ffl.html

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Q: What are the record keeping requirements for FFL’s?
Licensees must maintain records of all firearms receipts and dispositions, including the name, age, and place of residence of purchasers. 18 USC 922(b)(5) and 923(g)(1)(A). Licensed importers and manufacturers are required to identify firearms they import or manufacture by means of a serial number, which must be recorded in licensee records. 18 USC 923(i). Licensees are required to respond immediately to ATF firearms trace requests. 18 USC 923(g)(6). Reports of multiple sales of two or more handguns sold at one time or during any five consecutive business days are also required to be submitted to ATF. 18 USC 923(g)(3). Licensees who discontinue business must deliver their records to ATF. 18 USC 923(g)(4).

These requirements enable ATF to carry out one of the principal purposes of the GCA—to assist State, local, and foreign law enforcement officials in tracing firearms used in crime.

The United States government does not maintain records of licensees’ firearms transactions, other than the previously mentioned out-of-business records, reports of multiple handgun sales, and records of firearms traces. The assimilation of the information from these records provides valuable leads in the identification of illegal gun traffickers and their sources of firearms in the United States.

Regulations at 22 CFR 122.5 require that records of all transactions authorized by export, temporary import, and temporary export licenses must be maintained by the applicant for a period of 5 years. The records must be made available to United States Customs officers upon demand. These transactions are also computerized at the Department of State and Customs ports.

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http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

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(C6) Must a licensed importer’s, manufacturer’s, or dealer’s records be surrendered to ATF if the licensee discontinues business?

If the business is being discontinued completely, the licensed dealer, manufacturer or importer is required, within 30 days, to forward the business records to the following address:

BUREAU OF ATF
ATF OUT-OF-BUSINESS RECORDS
CENTER
244 NEEDY ROAD
MARTINSBURG, WV 24501

Failure to surrender required records is a felony and could result in the licensee being fined up to $250,000, imprisoned up to 5 years,
or both. A licensee discontinuing business also must notify the Federal Firearms Licensing Center within 30 days. If someone is taking over the business, the original licensee should underline the final entry in each bound book, note the date of transfer,
and forward all records and forms to the successor (who must apply for and receive his or her own license before lawfully engaging in business) or forward the records and forms to
the ATF Out-of-Business Records Center. If the successor licensee receives records and forms from the original licensee, the successor licensee may choose to forward these records and forms to the ATF Out-of-Business Record Center.

[18 U. S. C. 923(g)(4), 22 CFR 478.57, 27
CFR 478.127]

(C7) What records am I required to forward to ATF upon discontinuance of my business?

The records consist of the licensee's bound acquisition/disposition (A/D) records, ATF Forms 4473, ATF Forms 3310.4 (Report of Multiple Sale or Other Disposition of Pistols and Revolvers), ATF Forms 3310.11 (Federal Firearms Licensee Theft/Loss Report), records of transactions in semiautomatic assault weapons, records of importation (ATF Forms 6 and 6A), and law enforcement certification letters. If the licensee was granted a variance to use a computerized recordkeeping system, the licensee is required to provide a complete printout of the entire A/D records.

[27 CFR 478.127]

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And isn't the store who sold the gun to you required to keep the bill of sale for a specific period of time. And aren't they required to surrender such information to LEO?

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They are required to keep it for 20 years and can only obtain the info in a criminal investigation AFTER indictment. If they get the info before indictment or "just b/c the guv'ment is evil" it's illegal and a violation of the 4th Amendment.

Thanks helgs, that's what I thought... While our weapons aren't registered with the government, it isn't hard for them to find out who owns any particular firearm.



"If guns cause crime, all of mine are defective."
- Ted Nugent

Double check the laws in your state for the baton. If I remember correctly the collapsible baton is considered an illegal club in Texas.

If you need to use your weapon to defend your life then worry about the charges for illegal carrying later. If you get caught just carrying it then you will potentially screw up your chances of getting a CHL later.

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Thanks helgs, that's what I thought... While our weapons aren't registered with the government, it isn't hard for them to find out who owns any particular firearm.

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It isn't hard but it isn't easy. You need to be indicted by a grand jury, then the government needs to get a court order and subpoena to start the trail. It's doable but takes some time. Meanwhile you need to find a GOOD lawyer and shut the eff up!

[This message has been edited by helgs (edited 4/9/2010 2:22p).]

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Your gun doesn't mark itself on the casing.

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Wrong. The firing pin will leave an impression on the spent shell casing primer unique to your firearm. Maybe even an ejector scratch also. Why do you think criminal pick up spent casings after a crime???

helgs, go back to the dog grooming board ya poodle fluffing nancy boy! LOL

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Nope. That's fantasy CSI junk. They can match calibers but all evidence is circumstantial. Your gun doesn't mark itself on the casing.

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Dude, with all due respect, just quit. They do trace fired bullets to a specific gun based on rifling imprints, and they have traced fired cases based on firing pin and extractor marks. I'm not talking about the microstamping they've proposed doing on the face of the firing pin, but larger, more unique markings that makes each gun different than the next.

Again, this can be found many places external to Wikipedia, but the wiki link summarizes it well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_fingerprinting

helgs a newbie to firearms.

While the ATF doesn't keep your information on file for purchasing one firearm, i'm required to file a multiple handgun transaction if you buy two or more firearms within two days. This includes all of your info and I have to send it to the ATF and local law enforcement. This is of course avoidable if you have a chl.

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Wow. you trust the government a lot.

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???

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I am just saying if there is a paper trail, like the forms at a gun store, the Fed can access them if they really want.

I assumed that the poster was referring to unique serial numbers or other crap you see on CSI.

I guess it's safe to say that they could try to match. How does the firing pin put a unique identifier? They are mass produced firing pins. Aren't they all identical?

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I'm not talking about the microstamping they've proposed doing on the face of the firing pin, but larger, more unique markings that makes each gun different than the next.

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Which is circumstantial evidence, not direct. They can't point a casing to a SPECIFIC gun, just the model used. That isn't direct evidence and what I was referring to.

EDIT: For clarification, investigators can't look at a spent casing and say "Yes, this casing came from Glock 19C Serial Number 120531GX". They can say "Yes, this casing came from a Glock 19C".

[This message has been edited by helgs (edited 4/9/2010 3:12p).]

Helgs I believe they can match it to a specific gun, but they would have to have the gun first. They cannot find a casing and say it came from such and such serial number but if they have the actual weapon they can match it.

Dang....I found out that a sling shot will leave a mark unique on a china berry visable to one's Father when I was about twelve.

GAC, I can see the possibility of it, but think it is just extremely difficult and time consuming. What makes one model of Glock 19C different from the other? The parts are interchangeable and replaceable so it's nearly impossible to derive direct evidence from such.

Circumstantial evidence is not nearly relied on as much as direct evidence and one cannot be found guilty of a crime based on circumstantial evidence alone.

Don't gun manufacturers typically fire every weapon once before they sell it? Do they save the slug and casing?



"If guns cause crime, all of mine are defective."
- Ted Nugent

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helgs, go back to the dog grooming board ya poodle fluffing nancy boy! LOL

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WTF? I don't even know what the means!

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Don't gun manufacturers typically fire every weapon once before they sell it? Do they save the slug and casing?

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I doubt it. Plus a manufacturer cannot be compelled to comply with a subpoena. They'd have to give up the evidence on their own. Even that could lead to constitutionality issues (6th Amendment - confrontation of witnesses)

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one cannot be found guilty of a crime based on circumstantial evidence alone

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Really? I would say you can and the circumstantial evidence doesn't always have to be very good.