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Letting someone go

10,422 Views | 64 Replies | Last: 8 mo ago by Ezra Brooks
Agsquatch
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1:35p, 1/22/24
AG
There's a lot going on in this thread, but let me take a few steps back.

- What are some lessons learned here? Obviously the guy was at fault. But why was he allowed to return to his desk? I've run a small biz and I know how close-knit and how some of the normal rules don't apply that would apply in the corporate world. However, and please don't take this the wrong way - why were you tasked with letting him go when you didn't make the decision? That sends a red flag that there could be a kernel of truth to the guy's claims (obviously not at all an excuse). I understand the owner being hands-off, but if you weren't in the room advising them on this decision, you should have been. This isn't Exxon.

- This guy is 28. I'm not much older than him, but that is absolutely par for the course from what i've seen, and it burns me up to no end to see people squander what sounds like a cool job.

- An easy question to ask in this type of situation is just to ask them if it's a surprise to them. Sort of like how cops ask people "do you know why I pulled you over?" - an easy way to defuse those situations is to understand losing your job is a life-altering thing for some people. I always told folks we were parting ways with that they could put me down as a reference, and emphasize that it is amicable. Obviously, each interaction is different but i've been a hardass and i've been pretty hands-off. I've found my teams perform much better when I'm letting them do their jobs, and have known, documented KPIs.

YMMV but that's my take on all this. The kid hopefully got a hard life lesson, and your organization got exposed to some shortfalls. Nobody is perfect and everyone can improve.
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AggieMainland
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4:45p, 1/22/24
Sounds like your company has a poor training program and a better fit would have been someone with more experience. I'm doubting "He was given all the opportunity and training" based on what I'm reading.
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911sAg
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In reply to The Fall Guy • 9:45a, 1/23/24
The Fall Guy said:
911sAg said:
Sounds like a poorly run company yall ultimately hired someone who has no clue how to do the job what kind of interview process do yall have?

LOL


Yea. No one in hiring has ever hired anybody who is not who they say they are. Stupid quote. Lol



Yes but y'all hired him again probably a poorly run company would be my guess..Additionally you guys also botched the firing process you never let someone return to their desk you walk them out promptly

Amateur hour

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evestor1
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In reply to The Fall Guy • 10:39a, 1/23/24
The Fall Guy said:
AgOutsideAustin said:
Be careful with this one. Sounds like an unstable person that would come back and be violent.


Yea already thought of that. Its crazy



We terminated a field technician for exposing his balls to a hot pipe on an offshore vessel. He required an extra ferry to get him off. Real expensive ordeal.

A week later, he rolls into the headquarters in Houston dressed in business casual. Uses keycard, walks down the hall to HR, and told them it didn't work out … but to please accept his resume for finance when a position opens up!


Apparently, our company had never shut off cards before. They were just letting people go and never thinking of them again.
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ThunderFighter06
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In reply to The Fall Guy • 10:45a, 1/23/24
AG
Still sounds like your company made the right decision but I'd like to pry a little further. What is the structure of your company? How many managers/supervisors? How many employees per supervisor? That sort of thing. Also, do y'all have documented formal feedback sessions? Monthly? Quarterly? Just curious...
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JABQ04
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12:14p, 1/23/24
AG
We had a guy get fired, then when his job got posted he applied but used his real first name (everyone knew him by his middle name). Somehow made it to interview, dude actually had the balls to show up and was promptly told to "Eff off". Of course on paper the looked amazing (as he was the most qualified to fill his vacant role) and we all were amazed by the audacity he had to actually show up for his interview, also very confused by his though process. My non-professional opinion based on his social media is he has a few screws loose.
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HollywoodBQ
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In reply to JABQ04 • 2:48p, 1/23/24
AG
That's a good one.

I used to work for a company that did a lot of M&A. We were constantly acquiring little companies with 300 employees that had some promising technology.

More than once, I saw a situation where a guy had left Big Company to go to work for Start Up Company and wound up back at Big Company after the buyout.

But the real funny one that you reminded me of was a guy who got fired from Big Company for cause (office hi-jinks with the ladies as I understand it) with one of those formal - you're never going to work here again dismissals. Then, via acquisition, he did wind up working there again.
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Saxsoon
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In reply to ATM9000 • 7:20p, 1/23/24
AG
ATM9000 said:
You learn a little more every time you have to let somebody go. Big thing I've learned after doing this a few times in my career is that it's never a one way street. There's always something you could have done better too.

This is why documentation of everything from the interview process to ongoing performance management. It's not just cover your ass… it's remembering what you've done, what didn't work and why. Had a similar situation years ago. A low performer I never interviewed became my direct report. Pretty lazy but worst of all just didn't have the technical skills needed to do their job. Went back to the interview process, read the notes, saw the CV. CV advertised this person had been using various software and doing things it was clear they just had no real experience in. In the interview notes? No technical questions pertaining to those items. Lesson learned for the company? Dig in and make sure you get an understanding of technical expertise.

And on the person going back to their desk? I dunno… no offense sounds like your company hasn't fired many people and the handling of it was amateur hour. When people are let go where I'm at, it's well coordinated. They are met at the door and taken aside. IT access is automatically cut the night before and not being done the morning of. If the person is volatile, security is nearby to get them off premises as quickly as possible… nobody gets the opportunity to go back to their desk. This sounds patronizing, but I'd argue it is less so than just letting the person sit down and embarrass themselves. You are also only ruining a few people's day and not a whole workplace's day.
I worked for a fortune 50 company, I was let go but still worked for two months (COVID). I also have integrity so that was never an issue but it surprised the hell out of me. I really could have subtly screwed the company
Fighting Texas Aggie Class of 2012
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AggieOO
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3:20p, 1/24/24
i can't believe i'm going to be the first to say/reference this.

You should have moved him to the basement, let him keep working, and "fixed the glitch." Then again, he probably would have eventually burned down your office building...
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Shelton98
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In reply to AggieOO • 5:54p, 1/24/24
AG
AggieOO said:
i can't believe i'm going to be the first to say/reference this.

You should have moved him to the basement, let him keep working, and "fixed the glitch." Then again, he probably would have eventually burned down your office building...
And take his favorite stapler....
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JABQ04
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In reply to AggieOO • 7:53a, 1/25/24
AG
I immediately thought that just let him work and once he realizes he's not getting paid it would sort itself out
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annie88
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In reply to The Fall Guy • 4:36p, 2/8/24
AG
Most companies will not let a fired employee go back to their desk at all. Logon or anything, especially. They escort them immediately out the door. It sounds rude, but it's very standard.

I only had to fire one person in my life and same thing. She just couldn't cut it at the job we had tried counseling, everything it's like she didn't even listen in the interview on what was expected when she came in.

It still felt awful and I didn't like it, but it had to be done. But once it was done, she was led to the door and that was it.
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annie88
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In reply to Shelton98 • 4:37p, 2/8/24
AG
Shelton98 said:
AggieOO said:
i can't believe i'm going to be the first to say/reference this.

You should have moved him to the basement, let him keep working, and "fixed the glitch." Then again, he probably would have eventually burned down your office building...
And take his favorite stapler....


And noticed that he hadn't gotten the paycheck in a while.

/mumble.. I can burn this place down….
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infinity ag
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In reply to HollywoodBQ • 7:57p, 2/8/24
HollywoodBQ said:
That's a good one.

I used to work for a company that did a lot of M&A. We were constantly acquiring little companies with 300 employees that had some promising technology.

More than once, I saw a situation where a guy had left Big Company to go to work for Start Up Company and wound up back at Big Company after the buyout.

But the real funny one that you reminded me of was a guy who got fired from Big Company for cause (office hi-jinks with the ladies as I understand it) with one of those formal - you're never going to work here again dismissals. Then, via acquisition, he did wind up working there again.

I worked for a company a few years ago and our CEO left, so they got another guy who came in from a large famous tech company. He apparently had a hard time working for this woman who was CEO at this tech company and basically fled the place to join our company.

Then our company got bought by another company, which in then in a few months got bought by this large tech company. So he was back with his old boss, that witch.
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Krazykat
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In reply to The Fall Guy • 10:41p, 2/10/24
AG
The Fall Guy said:
Today we had to let somebody go. Just didnt cut it with learning what we do. Didn't ask questions. Expected everything to be written down in writing on how to do daily tasks.

He was brought in the office and the guy refused to accept he was being let go. Pleading, blaming, getting upset. 30 minutes later he goes back to his desk and starts working again. We had to tell him he needed to leave. He wanted to speak to the owner in person and we said. "Look he made his decision". Finally had to literally walk him to the door. I have never experienced that behavior before with an adult in my 25 plus years of work. He was 28 years old.

Any advice to give others on how to deal with this situation? He was given all the opportunity and training but had no initiative.


Another reason you have someone escort them to collect their belongings, then out the door. You don't want them sabotaging or deleting computer files or going nuts in the office.
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GentrysMillTX10
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7:02a, 2/11/24
AG
In 2015, I worked in downtown Fort Worth for a hydraulic fracturing company. Y'all might remember late 2014 through all of 2015 for the oil and gas industry. Rough times. I remember coming down for lunch to see the security teams lined up with boxes in the elevator bank. Seemed like someone in the building was laying off once a week for most of 2015.

My own boss was laid off in July 2015. He, like several other corporate employees back in those days, had a company vehicle. He was escorted out of the building to a row of taxi's. Sounds normal, right? Well my boss was a career long transportation industry guy and it was only the worst of employees that were given the taxi treatment in his opinion. It was likely his last job so he refused to be sent home via taxi. He raised hell to the point that they considered calling police before he bargained to have someone take him home. My former boss was a marine and there was one other marine that worked on our floor - so that's who he asked to take him home.
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justnobody79
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In reply to The Fall Guy • 10:29a, 2/15/24
The Fall Guy said:
Today we had to let somebody go. Just didnt cut it with learning what we do. Didn't ask questions. Expected everything to be written down in writing on how to do daily tasks.

He was brought in the office and the guy refused to accept he was being let go. Pleading, blaming, getting upset. 30 minutes later he goes back to his desk and starts working again. We had to tell him he needed to leave. He wanted to speak to the owner in person and we said. "Look he made his decision". Finally had to literally walk him to the door. I have never experienced that behavior before with an adult in my 25 plus years of work. He was 28 years old.

Any advice to give others on how to deal with this situation? He was given all the opportunity and training but had no initiative.
Do you have a verbal warning, written warning, final warning process in place? Obviously some things are so bad that you have to go straight to termination but the warning process is good to have in case they try to file for unemployment against your company.

When someone here is terminated the employee is brought into a private office or conference room with their manager and at least 1 rep from Human Resources. Manager says "Joe, we are letting you go, Toby here with H.R. is going to walk you through the next steps" and the manager leaves the room. If there is any potential for violence or outbursts then at least 2 people stay in the room with the terminated employee and security is on stand-by.

Is anybody from H.R. part of your termination process? I would think there should be at least somebody who is practiced in letting people go and dealing with all that goes with it.
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Chase
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In reply to justnobody79 • 2:42p, 2/25/24
AG
With 60 people they may have a single HR person but most orgs that size, in my experience, do not have official HR personnel.

Once the decision is made:

1) If there is an HR person, get them on it. If not, whoever it is that will make sure Is are dotted and Ts crossed with regard to contracts, separation agreement, potential severance, etc.

2) Notify employees/depts that control access or equipment the employee has access to so that they can prepare.

3) As others have said, meet them when they come in and lead them to a private space where there are at least two other folks, one a more senior mgmt person, thw other(s) another dept head or senior mgr or two (if there is no HR). It's advisable for the direct supervisor to leave once he walks the person in to avoid questions /confrontations.

4) Explain the reasons and process, present the documentation, get a signature and get keys/phones/laptop from them.

5) There should have been nothing for him to work on at his desk. All machines/phones/vehicles/access should be disabled while the employee is in the meeting. My preference as an IT director was to entirely remove the machine from the office as well as any work docunents.

6) After the meeting, he is escorted back to his workspace (empty box on the desk) so he gather any personal things and then escorted from the building.
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GIF Reactor
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11:09a, 2/26/24
AG
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El Hombre Mas Guapo
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4:10p, 3/5/24
AG
How does the board feel about the payment of roll-over PTO? If someone is let go, should they be entitled to the payment of the hours of PTO they've accrued over the years? Asking for a friend or whatever.
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Chipotlemonger
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In reply to El Hombre Mas Guapo • 9:53p, 3/5/24
AG
Yes that should be paid out at the end of employment, in my opinion. It's essentially a partial severance.

Now if the company had a really nice stock severance package and didn't pay out the PTO someone may not care as much. But if PTO is capped year to year I would pay out whatever is in the bank. At least that is the most considerate thing to do.
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Ezra Brooks
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7:40a, 3/6/24
AG
I prefer yes and it's been that way across my 3 previous O&G operators prior to my current role in O&G Services/Equipment, where it's NO (except in those states where it's required)

I've had more than one exit conversation where an employee has resigned and expected to get that as they leave...it's made for some awkward conversations.
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Chipotlemonger
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In reply to Ezra Brooks • 7:57a, 3/6/24
AG
Yea I didn't think about the state detail and state level requirements. I think I've gotten PTO paid out in every job I've left and that probably is the reason for my opinion. Granted one was more of a contract position, one was with a large enough company to absorb those kinds of things, and the other was in a state where it is probably required anyways.
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El Hombre Mas Guapo
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10:28a, 3/6/24
AG
Yeah getting $0 severance and none of my accrued PTO (~4 years with company) after helping startup grow from 5 to 30 people, kinda bites. They're hurting for cash and hope to reduce overhead by handing my job to my underling.... Good luck!
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agnerd
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In reply to Ezra Brooks • 11:35a, 3/6/24
AG
Ezra Brooks said:
I prefer yes and it's been that way across my 3 previous O&G operators prior to my current role in O&G Services/Equipment, where it's NO (except in those states where it's required)
Then you can't be mad or complain when they put in for a two-week vacation and submit their two-week resignation the Friday before they go on vacation.
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Ezra Brooks
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In reply to agnerd • 12:24p, 3/6/24
AG
agnerd said:
Ezra Brooks said:
I prefer yes and it's been that way across my 3 previous O&G operators prior to my current role in O&G Services/Equipment, where it's NO (except in those states where it's required)
Then you can't be mad or complain when they put in for a two-week vacation and submit their two-week resignation the Friday before they go on vacation.
Fair enough - and if they plan it correctly - good on them.

BUT, if they provide notice of resignation and then intend to take vacation - that's a NO from me....I'll accept their resignation immediately and they can be done that day.
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AgLA06
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In reply to Ezra Brooks • 4:29p, 3/6/24
AG
Ezra Brooks said:
I prefer yes and it's been that way across my 3 previous O&G operators prior to my current role in O&G Services/Equipment, where it's NO (except in those states where it's required)

I've had more than one exit conversation where an employee has resigned and expected to get that as they leave...it's made for some awkward conversations.


Is PTO listed as an accrued benefit? If so, I'm surprised y'all haven't had a lawyer inquire.
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TexAg1987
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In reply to El Hombre Mas Guapo • 4:40p, 3/6/24
El Hombre Mas Guapo said:
How does the board feel about the payment of roll-over PTO? If someone is let go, should they be entitled to the payment of the hours of PTO they've accrued over the years? Asking for a friend or whatever.
Texas PTO carry over
In contrast to California, Texas does not have specific state laws that regulate or require employers to provide paid time off benefits to employees. Instead, the state of Texas generally follows an "at-will" employment doctrine, which means that employers have more flexibility in determining their PTO policies.
Specifically, in Texas:
  • Unused PTO can expire. Employers are free to implement a "use-it-or-lose-it" policy, which means that employees will forfeit any unused PTO at the end of the year.
  • Employers can limit PTO carry over. If an employer chooses to allow PTO carry over, they can set a limit on the number of days or hours that can be carried over.
  • Unused PTO is not paid out at termination. When an employee leaves their job, they are not entitled to be paid for any unused PTO.

PTO rules
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GentrysMillTX10
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12:16p, 3/8/24
AG
I turned in a 3 week notice and my boss agreed to me using my remaining PTO in week 3. HR didn't care and didn't pay me my PTO. Jerks.

On edit. That 3rd week was the opening weekend and first full week of deer season so I quickly forgot about it.
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Ezra Brooks
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1:50p, 3/8/24
AG
Here's the HR perspective (right, wrong or indifferent)

It's a risk - mid to large companies are providing life insurance, etc. to employees and if anything happens during that "vacation" they are on the hook that....most just don't want to deal with it.

Others are just really cheap (my current employer included) - I don't really think the "savings" are worth it.
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