I know this isn't a "job network" question but I was hoping to get some input from those in the know. My son is a high school senior and has been accepted to some great colleges for engineering. He is torn between Chem and Civil engineering. Yes, I know that most colleges have a general engineering year but some on his list do not. Can anyone help with pros/cons of either or both choices? Also, any advice on how to get out of the cubicle in the work force later would be great ie MBA, minor in business, etc.

The difference between civil and chemical is quite a wide spectrum IMO. What does he want in a career? Civil is more of a pushing dirt, pouring concrete, designing structures type of function. Chemical is more of a process engineering, thermodynamics, heat transfer, type of function.

I have a MS in Mechanical engineering and have done agricultural engineering, civil engineering, structural engineering, chemical engineering, and now am in construction/engineering management for a $60B LNG plant.

My 2 cents is that he studies mechanical engineering and is able to do both if he's interested in that. ME is the "jack of all trades" type of engineering degree. Mechanical engineers can do some civil work, but civil engineers probably can't do chemical engineering work. Opposite also applies. Hope that helps!

Just know that in order to advance in Civil Engineering, he'll need to pursue licensure 4 years after graduating.

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The difference between civil and chemical is quite a wide spectrum IMO. What does he want in a career? Civil is more of a pushing dirt, pouring concrete, designing structures type of function. Chemical is more of a process engineering, thermodynamics, heat transfer, type of function.

I have a MS in Mechanical engineering and have done agricultural engineering, civil engineering, structural engineering, chemical engineering, and now am in construction/engineering management for a $60B LNG plant.

My 2 cents is that he studies mechanical engineering and is able to do both if he's interested in that. ME is the "jack of all trades" type of engineering degree. Mechanical engineers can do some civil work, but civil engineers probably can't do chemical engineering work. Opposite also applies. Hope that helps!

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I'll definitely agree that ME is probably the most diverse, and sets one up for jumping disciplines. However, thinking that Civils can't do ChemE work is not an accurate statement. This is coming from someone who has a BS in Civil and an MS in a Civil/Chem E hybrid. There are some inter-disciplines in Civil and ChemE that enjoy direct crossover.

If you're asking advice as to which discipline your son should pursue, I would suggest ChemE or ME. Just a personal reflection based on my time in the industry.

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I'll definitely agree that ME is probably the most diverse, and sets one up for jumping disciplines. However, thinking that Civils can't do ChemE work is not an accurate statement. This is coming from someone who has a BS in Civil and an MS in a Civil/Chem E hybrid. There are some inter-disciplines in Civil and ChemE that enjoy direct crossover.

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I would say that in general, in it's purest sense, a civil engineer will generally not be doing much chemical engineering. Same in the other way. That's not to say that there would be some specialization where both disciplines would apply. That's all I was trying to get across.

ChemE here...in most entry-level positions with the major ChemE companies (ExxonMobil, Chevron, Dow, DuPont), a civil engineer and a chemical engineer are NOT interchangeable. The job titles/descriptions/expectations will be very different and the starting salaries will also be VERY different. Where you might see this diverge is in mid- to upper-level supervisory/managent roles where the person has a ton of experience within a specific company/process/technology. But entry-level ChemEs are not competing with civils for the same jobs. There are just too many courses that are specific to ChemE (heat transfer and heat exchanger design, mass transfer and separation equipment design, kinetics and reactor engineering, advanced thermodynamics, etc). Mechanical engineers are also not interchangeable with ChemEs in most entry-level ChemE jobs, for the same reasons.

Also, most BS ChemEs are NOT stuck in a cubicle. The most common jobs after graduation are based in a chemical plant or refinery that manufactures anything from gasoline to polyethylene and everything in between. You spend a lot of time in a hard hat and flame resistant clothing, climbing into and out of all sorts of process equipment. The cubicle/office jobs, if they do come, come much later after you have learned how a chemical plant operates.

The exception to this might be for environmental engineering and/or consulting-type jobs that are more focused on general engineering projects (that conceivably any engineering major would qualify for). Environmental engineers can be either civil or chemical engineers, but in both cases an MS is highly desirable. The MS level is where you would maybe start to see cross-over (not at the BS-level).

If you have some specific questions about the ChemE course of study (I was a ChemE prof in a previous life, so I am fairly useful at advising) or typical ChemE career paths, feel free to ask and I will answer. I could give you all sorts of additional info, but I'm not sure what is most relevevant/helpful to you right now and don't want to go off on some tangent.

Civils typically get out on site weekly. Half a day a week on site is not uncommon. You also will spend time going to meetings with the client or the muniticipality the project is in.

You get to see your work for 30 years and can point it out to people.

The pay is on the lower half for engineers but it's more stable. There are a lot of government jobs available or opportunity for owning your own shop. My guess is of the engineers that stay in the private sector, 50%+ will have some ownership at some point.

As an owner, income potential is very high. 500k is not uncommon in good years for 100% owners.
Gov work probably tops out under 200k.

A Structural engineer in O&G can clear $100K within the first 4 years out of A&M.

Any O&G names looking?

Licensed PE and SE with 7 years experience, 4 in commercial building design and 3 in industrial design (substations, related electrical work and structures inside process facilities)

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now am in construction/engineering management for a $60B LNG plant.

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And your partners would appreciate it if you could keep it at 60 and not a penny more!

This is a link to the top paying starting salaries in engineering. The data is from 2013, but it still gives a good idea. Chemical is #3, behind petroleum and computer. Civil is not on the list because a relatively small percentage of civil engineers go into O&G right out of school (vs a large percentage of ChemEs go into O&G/refining/chemicals).

http://www.naceweb.org/s04032013/salary-survey-engineering-majors.aspx

I would advise against choosing a major simply for a specific job title and/or starting salary, however. Any engineering major will pay well, but you simply can't bank on the fact that you will absolutely end up with a specific job with XYZ company in a specific industry or a $100k+ salary in four years. You have to choose something where the subject matter is interesting to you (and it helps if you have a knack for it, otherwise, college will be a miserable four-five years) and that will offer a reasonable range of career opportunities that you think you will enjoy. I encouraged ALL of my students to pursue opportunities to intern or co-op while enrolled as an undergrad in order to help determine the best career path.

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now am in construction/engineering management for a $60B LNG plant.

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And your partners would appreciate it if you could keep it at 60 and not a penny more!

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Har har. I am starting my first rotation in May. Cost control is at the top of my list!

Civil PE here. I've worked strictly govt jobs at the state and local levels. I will only discuss civil. As a CE you have plenty of chances to be in and out of the office. Job visits and requests to look at issues are constant. To me civil is very broad. You can do anything from structures to water treatment to constriction managent to consulting. It is very rewarding to see projects you've designed or built once they are finished. To advance you want to get your PE license. Mid to upper management becomes more of a funding position in govt work. Each project is something new. You can design a channel or road everyday but each is its own.

It would be beneficial for him to visit with civil and Chen engrs to see what they do everyday and get their personal opinions about their work. That helped me decide what I wanted to do in engineering.

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This is a link to the top paying starting salaries in engineering. The data is from 2013, but it still gives a good idea. Chemical is #3, behind petroleum and computer. Civil is not on the list because a relatively small percentage of civil engineers go into O&G right out of school (vs a large percentage of ChemEs go into O&G/refining/chemicals).

http://www.naceweb.org/s04032013/salary-survey-engineering-majors.aspx

I would advise against choosing a major simply for a specific job title and/or starting salary, however. Any engineering major will pay well, but you simply can't bank on the fact that you will absolutely end up with a specific job with XYZ company in a specific industry or a $100k+ salary in four years. You have to choose something where the subject matter is interesting to you (and it helps if you have a knack for it, otherwise, college will be a miserable four-five years) and that will offer a reasonable range of career opportunities that you think you will enjoy. I encouraged ALL of my students to pursue opportunities to intern or co-op while enrolled as an undergrad in order to help determine the best career path.

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According to that survey a business major WITH A BACHELORS degree averages around $60K??? I don't think so.

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Any O&G names looking?

Licensed PE and SE with 7 years experience, 4 in commercial building design and 3 in industrial design (substations, related electrical work and structures inside process facilities)

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Not a good time to be looking, the market is saturated and many O&G places if they are hiring are low balling people pretty bad right now. I would stay put and play it out later.

Civils are people who couldn't hack it in ChemE, and I am a civil who couldn't hack it in ChemE at A&M

Sounds like you are bitter about your underachieving at life. Sorry to hear that, hope you turn things around.

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This is a link to the top paying starting salaries in engineering. The data is from 2013, but it still gives a good idea. Chemical is #3, behind petroleum and computer. Civil is not on the list because a relatively small percentage of civil engineers go into O&G right out of school (vs a large percentage of ChemEs go into O&G/refining/chemicals).

http://www.naceweb.org/s04032013/salary-survey-engineering-majors.aspx

I would advise against choosing a major simply for a specific job title and/or starting salary, however. Any engineering major will pay well, but you simply can't bank on the fact that you will absolutely end up with a specific job with XYZ company in a specific industry or a $100k+ salary in four years. You have to choose something where the subject matter is interesting to you (and it helps if you have a knack for it, otherwise, college will be a miserable four-five years) and that will offer a reasonable range of career opportunities that you think you will enjoy. I encouraged ALL of my students to pursue opportunities to intern or co-op while enrolled as an undergrad in order to help determine the best career path.

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According to that survey a business major WITH A BACHELORS degree averages around $60K??? I don't think so.

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I can't speak to business maJors, but the ChemE salary matches up pretty well with the entry-level salary that our professional org, AIChE, publishes every two years. They publish ChemE salaries across all industries, geographic areas, years of experience, highest degree, etc. That survey comes out every two years, but I couldn't post it because the link is only available for members to view. The other engineering starting salaries are in line with numbers I've seen from other reputable sources, such as the American Society for Engineering Education (ASEE).

Edited to add data that shows all engineering salaries...it's from 2012 but shows a similar trend and it's from the same source (NACE). Evidently NACE is where ASEE gets their numbers from.

http://blog.engineeringstudents.org/?p=1507

I just realized that first graphic shows data for finance majors. I know my company (and its parent companies ) do hire finance majors and I would not at all be surprised if the starting salary is comparable to that. They are some of the most valued employees, after the chemical engineers, the hiring is very competitive, and they are exposed to some great professional development opportunities. I was talking about this with some colleagues the other day...if my kid wasn't engineering material, I'd definitely point him/her in the direction of finance.

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Sounds like you are bitter about your underachieving at life. Sorry to hear that, hope you turn things around.

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I am not bitter and it is safe to say that I am more successful than you will ever be.

If you're talking about an environmental engineering degree or (civil degree with environmental focus like A&M has), then focus will be a lot different than a civil engineering degree. The first thing I would tell you is that you should expect to pursue a Master's for better job opportunities in the field with Civil/Environmental. Since many schools (like A&M) don't offer a pure environmental engineering option, you don't get enough focus at the undergrad level, so you need to pursue at least a Master's for greater focus. Most folks in the field will have Master's or higher for that reason. Don't take that too much of a concern, you can get a Master's of Engineering at A&M in 3 semesters after undergrad. There are many different paths you can take in environmental: focused on environmental permitting for private clients (compliance, air permitting, remediation, or many other aspects). Most of this work will involve a lot of field work during your early career years as you are cheap labor and learn the trade. Another major path is design work: industrial or municipal water/wastewater treatment. This will involve a lot more office work through your career as you either work for an owner or consultant on new or renovated treatment facilities. There are of course many other paths to take but those are the two broadest paths.

Having said all that, a Chem-E can do the same work as well as have other far more lucrative opportunities than what a civil/environmental engineer will. It would really depend on what type of environment the person wants to work in.

We need a civil here in wichita falls. Get him to school and we might have a job waiting

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Civils are people who couldn't hack it in ChemE, and I am a civil who couldn't hack it in ChemE at A&M

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I'm a civil who could have handled ChemE or any other engineering, and I really wish I had made a switch while in school. Not a fan of civil.

Civil PE here. My advice would be try and shadow someone in both industries for a week. My first Civil job out of college I was miserable, however there are several different specialties that you can go into on the Civil side. With a job change I found the type of Civil work I enjoy and have been extremely happy with my profession. While not always glamorous Civils are always needed.

Do petroleum. He'll make a hell of a lot more money.

^^^^^until the price of oil drops and petrolieums become a dime a dozen. Not necessarily a bad thing as long as you plan for it while the times are good.

I'm a CE that could have hacked it in any of the engineering programs. I chose civil because it was the most interesting to me. My roommate was a Chem E and the stuff he was learning would have bored me to death.

As far as pay, yes Chem E makes more but either will pay well enough to have a good living. And the one you enjoy more you will do better in for the long run. Or do like I'm planning and move out of engineering into management. Then the degree type doesn't matter and you will make more than both fields of engineering.

IMO, it depends on the industries you are interested in working in as CE and ChemE are vastly different. You can get into environmental from either path (CE focuses more on water/ground where chemE does that and airborne).

That being said if you are interested in chemical/O&G is definitely go chemical. ME is good too but many early career jobs in ME in O&G/chemical are focused on cost saving where ChemEs see the cost and profit side of the equation (although I may slightly biased).

That being said, having an understanding of both sides (ME and ChemE) is the way to go as it helps you understand the pipes and what's in the pipes. I was luck enough to have a few more ME spots and got to see it...

TXTransplant hit most of the points.

ChemE, here.

A couple more points.

The end result is certainly one thing to consider, but getting there, IMO, is a much bigger question. By the time I finished my Chem E degree, I didn't really want to do Chemical Engineering. A ChemE degree is incredibly difficult and getting weeded out is pretty intense (at least while I was at A&M).

Can people from other majors get a degree in ChemE? Sure. I don't think ChemE has a monopoly on all the smart people, but you have some real whizzes in there... not counting myself.

If you look at the net flow of majors, it is much easier to transfer out of ChemE, than into it. The reason is you have to love Chemistry (or at least be good at it) and you have to start taking it early and often. By the time you are done, you are pretty close to getting a degree in Chemistry.

For me, it is really a two part question, when it comes to ChemE.
Does what I want to be require a ChemE?
Will I be able to get a degree in ChemE?

I agree with DallasAg94. Thinking back to my undergrad days, I don't recall anyone starting out in another major and then changing to ChemE, but I did know people who left ChemE for another major.

There were also a few who stayed in but did terribly and graduated with less than a 3.0. IMO, if you can't graduate with better than a 3.0, it really impacts your ability to get a good job at graduation. The big companies just don't want to hire grads who barely got by. With a low GPA, you are much more likely to end up in a government job or in a consulting position. And it can be difficult to get into the chemicals/refining industry with a major player if you start out in a gov't or consulting job. And while working for one of the big names isn't for everyone, they do pay the best, are the most stable, and offer great benefits (most still have company-paid pensions and 401ks). ChemE is one of the last majors where you can graduate with ONLY a BS and have a great 25 year career, make well over $100k/year regardless of your job title (meaning, you don't necessarily have to go into upper management), and retire as a millionaire. As such, the stakes are high. There aren't a whole lot of ChemEs out there, but the expectations are high and it can be very competitive.

With that said, I was a ChemE from the first day I enrolled in college (thought I wanted to do chemistry, but the scholarship opportunities in ChemE were crazy good and then someone told me how much ChemEs make) and never thought about changing my major. For me, I can't really imagine doing anything else. There have been times when I questioned the sanity of getting a PhD (although, even that's worked out fine), but I've never regretted getting the BS in ChemE.

AgChick, congratulations to your son upon being accepted to some great engineering colleges. And kudos to you as well! The previous posters have made good points.

You mentioned something about "getting out of the cubicle" or some such. I think back in my early days it was referred to as "getting off the drafting table." I cannot speak for the alchemy practicioners, but the field of civil engineering offers MANY opportunities to do just that. I also suspect civil engineers can obtain employment in a broader geographic area than chemical engineers. (Think Austin, Denver, Ft. Worth vs. the petrochemical coasts)
We have two sons who have a masters degree in civil and a nephew with a Phd in chemical engineering. Each likes what they do. Different strokes for different folks.

ChemE who graduated in May 2014 and works in Drilling and Completions for a Major here...Just going to continue to beat the dead horse. It depends on what industry he THINKS he may want to go into. Chemical is going to be very diverse in the energy industry and you can get hired to do anything that a mechanical or petroleum engineer may get hired for but you can also get hired for jobs in downstream and chemical positions that they would not be able to get hired for. As far as getting "out of the cubicle"..it depends again on the industry. Upstream jobs for Majors you are required to do field work for 2-5 years when you first start. I will say that if you enter the energy industry the "obtaining employment in broader geographic areas is better for civil" point is not necessarily valid..if you work for a large company you can have opportunities anywhere there is oil-- anywhere around the world.

You have to think about the course work as well. He has to be good at chemistry because a Chemistry Minor is effectively built into our curriculum and weed out classes continue through sophomore and into junior year because the department is so kind (NOT).

Realistically as far as pay goes he can expect starting at something around (not taking into account 4 years of inflation) by industry: Chemical/Downstream: 80K-90K, Upstream: 100K+, Upstream services: 75K (not positive on that one), Industrial Air: 65K, Consulting: 80K.....source: friends graduated in all different industries in May 2014.