New industry that is "College Admission"

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AggieDruggist89
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2:27p, 3/29/24
AG
If you or your children started college in last 10 years, then you lived it. This is my 3rd time since 2017. My daughter's college and Law school and this year my son's college application process. Some random info:

  • Not Under Represented Minority (URM)
  • CA resident
  • Middle class - zero qualification for need based financial aid
  • HS class ~ 400 primarily white in isolated suburban area of Northern Cal
  • My kids didn't cure cancer or invent Google.
  • No paid instruction for SAT prep
  • 529 fully funded to cover in state undergrad

We taught our daughter to be well rounded. Sports, music, theater etc. She graduated top 10% of her class in 2017 with 1480 (800 reading) SAT. She received acceptance from one school, UC Davis and rejected from the rest 15 schools that included most UCs except Merced, Riverside and Santa Cruz. I blamed myself that perhaps we didn't stress enough on GPA and SAT. She majored in English (3.85 GPA) at Davis and aced the LSAT and admitted to Cornell. During the law school admission process, I saw many URM applicants get admitted to better law schools with much lower GPA and LSAT. Nonetheless, she's graduating in a month and has a job in Big Law.

Son graduates HS in 2 months. #1 in his class, 4.85/4.0 GPA, 1570 SAT. Excellent essay reviewed by Cornell Law Students ; ) & enough EC to not get penalized but not enough to make him different. And this is where I believe he could've used help.

He got accepted to engineering schools at UC: Davis, Irvine, Santa Barbara, Santa Cruz and LA, but rejected from San Diego and Berkeley. Waitlisted at Cal Poly SLO and Washington & Lee. Also accepted to College of William and Mary and several small liberal arts colleges with full ride to decent merit based scholarships. Rejected from Harvard (only Ivy applied), MIT, Cal-Tech, Northwestern, UVA, Williams, Swarthmore and all Pomona Colleges he applied to. Waiting on Stanford but it's a super reach.

Overall he did well and most likely commit to UCLA (I'm a Trojan). Imagine UCLA had the most freshmen applications @ 146,000 with 8% admission rate. Which means there were more rejections sent out from UCLA than any other schools in the US in addition to them being the #1 public u in the country tied with Berkeley per USNWR.

What did we learn and what does my son think of all this? He said, "Dad...this is a silly game." It used to be, good GPA and Test Scores and some EC were enough for a middle class applicant to get a few acceptances from top institutions. Today, the process and criteria are unclear and seem severely subjective based on scorned and abandoned progressive minded admission committee on a vengeance for being bullied. No parents like to see rejections get doled out to their children. But you better be ready because your kids will get rejected somewhere. Without a clear explanation why. My son will go through this again in 3 years for grad/professional school application. Hopefully he'll be better prepared to apply and provide what the committee likes. I believe my son will switch to Astro-Physics with a minor in music and then apply to either Business, Law, or Med School.

A good student will get a good education in the US, liberal at most places albeit. And that's the truth. But if you want your kid to get admitted to top 20 or so schools, then I recommend you start the process early at 8th grade and hire an admission advisor and build a platform. Good academic foundation is a must. It starts with reading early. Both kids were voracious readers and my daughter set all kinds of AR records in Dallas when she was in elementary school. I never advocated for my kids to pursue happiness, passion or do what they love. I stressed them to pursue excellence and in that, they'll find happiness and love. And no, they were not going to major in a useless field. But do note that progressive liberal focused ECs are definitely valued by admission committees. Whatever that may be, your kids should do it.

My daughter asked my son...hey bro, how many schools did you get into....and with his response of 9, she said, heh, that's 9X more than me. I said..one is enough, easier decision.

I don't really have a point. Just wanted to share our journey that's not over yet. And I owed y'all an update from another thread pertaining to college admissions. I'm looking forward to some UCLA football games in the Big10 with son and my golf gear/hat will have UCLA logo. USC-UCLA will be heckuva lot more interesting going forward though my sons first love was Aggie Football.
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Guy on a Buffalo
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8:02a, 3/30/24
AG
So much has changed in the last fifty years.

The value proposition of any school (university/college/trade) should be that if you come here and graduate, it will improve your ability to thrive in the world.

This is why schools would discriminate based on grades and test scores, and eventually extra curricular activities that demonstrated the applicant was exceptional in some way: these institutions wanted better material to work with in order to have a better chance of producing impressive graduates who would be a representation of the value of their degrees.

Today, the value prop in most universities is a lie. You pay them (or promise to pay off loans of) hundreds of thousands of dollars, and in return you get four to five years of nonsense education and little to no real experience that would enable you to be a real value in society, and certainly doesn't put you in an advantageous position relative to anyone who didn't go to a university.

For those who are truly committed to advancing in particularly valuable degree programs (medicine, engineering, science and tech, etc) the value proposition of specific universities and programs can still be there. For everyone else, why are you going into massive amounts of debt just to scroll LinkedIn and other job sites and hope they pick your name out of the giant hat?

Sorry to derail, and congrats to your son. I have three, and only the first has a real desire to go to a university, and that's because he wants to play football for four more years. Absent a real shot at that, he'll probably pursue a trade school.

-----------------------
Truth without love is brutality. Love without truth is compromise.
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BoDog
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11:25p, 3/30/24
AG
Completely agree with these comments. OP, did your son consider A&M?

Having gone through this process twice (with two more to go) it has opened my eyes to process that is so dysfunctional and dare I say, rigged-sometimes without any rhyme or reason.

The one thing I have learned is not so much what school you attend and graduate from, but rather what degree you earn. My oldest has two best friends who were accounting and finance majors at OU and Kansas. Both had pretty average HS resumes. Both landed outstanding internships and eventual job offers after graduation.

Bottom line get a relevant degree, be likable, dont be socially awkward and life will very likely treat you well!
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AggieDruggist89
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In reply to Guy on a Buffalo • 8:23a, 3/31/24
AG
There are about five young men who work at the golf course. All great kids in HS and I talk to them every chance I get. One particular kid stands out. He drives a raised Tacoma with very large fancy wheels he paid for himself and I alway tease him he needs bigger wheels.

He's the only one not planning on college. Instead he's going into hvac/electric. He's already doing internship at a local company he's proud of. His reason for choosing trade? "My dad owned an hvac company and retired at 40. He's 45 now and helps out when he's bored."

And on our golf course, 2 largest houses are owned by a tire Co owner and a commercial electrician.

The kid is smart.
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AggieDruggist89
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In reply to BoDog • 8:46a, 3/31/24
AG
You're absolutely right. The credentials earned through education is significantly more important than the institution attended. Of course there are some nuances of certain industry recruiting talent from certain schools but those are the exceptions and not the rule.

No, my kids didn't consider A&M primarily because they grew up in Northern CA (State of Jefferson conservative area) and out of state in TX.

Also, we were leaning towards smaller schools if financials made sense which didn't work out for my daughter. My son may still choose a small private lib art college as we are waiting on the financial award packages.

I may be too harsh on the admission process as there are over 20,000 valedictorians in the US with at least 10-20 kids with scholastic aptitude in each HS to academically qualify to get admitted to top US colleges. But there just aren't enough seats and many will and should get rejected. The question is should socioecomic status play a role in the admission process and if so, should it outweigh academic achievement?

The fact we can discuss academics of our children on Easter Sunday should be enough to give us a tremendous amount of gratitude as this is a good thing to worry about. I'm thankful.
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He Who Shall Be Unnamed
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3:32p, 3/31/24
I am still pretty raw from this process. My child is not a tech/computing type of kid, really would like to go to law school and participate in a think tank or do politics some day.

His stats, briefly:
School doesn't do class rank, but unweighted GPA is 3.8 + with lots of APs (several 5's on tests)
National Merit Finalist
Perfect 36 on ACT, single test (not super scored result)
President of our state's Teen Republicans
Played football
NHS, Youth City Council, lots of church and other activities, etc.
Wrote, and had published, an independent research paper about how politicians can engage with Gen Z.

Accepted in-state and to UF
Rejected from USC, U Chicago, UT, Vandy, Duke, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn, Columbia, UVA, Georgetown
Waitlisted at Notre Dame, Rice, Boston College

You could argue that his GPA could have been higher. One of his B's was awarded to him by his AP GoPo (really his wheelhouse) teacher, who had a sign at the front of her class that said, "Black and Brown Queens to the Front". He made a 5 on that AP exam. Another B was because one of his AP teachers gave his entire group a 0 on a project because he said they were cheating (which they weren't). Grades can be very subjective. It's hard to fake a test result, and it is well known that standardized tests are very predictive of academic success.

This process is a joke. These kids aren's stupid. They see kids with far lower scores, grades, achievements getting multiple offers from the schools they get rejected by. You try to tell your kid to never treat people based on the color of their skin, then when they are discriminated against because of the color of their skin, you really have no answer for them. A good friend of mine told me, "don't worry, keep working, the cream will always rise to the top". Well, he did work hard, became the cream, and he was pushed back down.

My son's story is no different from what I have heard other kids going through in the past. All of them White or Asian. How does this divisive rot do anything but pit kids against each other unnecessarily? Who thinks this is a good idea, or that it is somehow OK to punish someone based on the color of their skin? Sorry to put it so bluntly, but it's the disgusting truth. The lawsuits against Harvard and UNC pulled back the curtains on what has been going on for so long in academia. Why is it considered OK to continue it?
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DannyDuberstein
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4:38p, 3/31/24
AG
We're in process of raising a generation of white males who are going to face constant discrimination in school admissions and the workplace. They will overcome it because so many of these kids are wired to be successful regardless, but there are going to be some angry males out there and that oftentimes doesn't end well.
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American Hardwood
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7:11p, 3/31/24
AG
Screw Big Ed. I'm sending my youngest daughter with good private school grades to trade school. Not joking. She is willing to go.
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aggie93
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10:41a, 4/1/24
AG
This is such a frustrating and difficult subject. I've got a son who is a HS Junior and we are about to go through it. So I have been extensively researching how the system works for the last 6 months. I've talked to outside counselors (school counselors even at my son's excellent HS really don't know how to play this game generally). I've listened to countless podcasts from different perspectives, mainly from former Admissions people at elite Universities. I've watched a ton of Youtube videos with Counselor and student's perspectives (especially on those who were admitted). I've done a lot of other research on statistics and reading school's websites. I'm no expert but I do feel like I have gathered a lot of perspectives and understanding and my son will be as prepared as possible.

This is so much more complicated than DEI/AA. Does that factor? Yes, just not to the extent and in the way most people think. It's more about how if a school is Selective or especially Highly Selective they can choose their class from a broad spectrum of qualified kids who academically can handle the rigors of the school. The Common App has made that a reality, so many Selective schools have gone from 30-40% Admit to 10-15% Admit in the last few years because kids, mainly exceptional kids, can apply to 20 or more top schools with minimal effort. So you have a lot of kids that simply look at the Top 25 schools in US News and apply to virtually all of them along with some others. These are kids with near perfect resumes. This has made it so that schools can be far more selective in who they accept and are looking to fill out every major with just the right kids.

Druggist, your son got into UCLA which is fantastic. UCLA is the most applied to school in the country at 136,000 applicants but only 32,000 Undergrads. That means around 8-9000 Freshman out of that pool of 136,000. It's a great school but that's insane. It has occurred because the Common App makes it so that virtually every high performing kid in California applies there along with a huge amount of high performing kids around the country and internationally. Many kids also just apply to all of the UC Schools or at least the Top 6 (Berkeley, LA, San Diego, Irvine, Santa Barbara, and Santa Cruz) driving their numbers through the roof as well. In the past a lot of those high performing kids might apply to 1 or 2 of those schools or just go closest to home.

The thing is it isn't necessarily about skin color it is about being unique or unusual or showing you can add something new to the campus. Inevitably this runs counter to human nature and this is where the problem comes in. Why? Well if you look at high achieving Asian males a very high percentage want to study either Comp Sci or some Pre Med track. White males gravitate towards Engineering and Business. So if you want to go study Comp Sci at Berkeley for instance it is competition on top of competition to do so. They don't want every kid in Comp Sci to be an Asian male, in fact they would rather it be far more balanced. Now I think the reasons they are doing this are flawed but that is what it is. So if you want to be one of those kids accepted you better stand out far beyond just your stats and having typical EC's.

One of the most interesting Podcasts I listened to btw was a group of Admissions counselors complaining about how men have an advantage in admissions. At first I was "WTF?" but as I listened I realized that they were talking about Liberal Arts schools. That's where they had all gone and that's the world they think about. They dream of going to Swarthmore or Haverford or Bowdoin and the like. Those schools are in a real bind because they are getting fewer and fewer male applicants. Some are pumping up sports programs and football to attract them. Why? Their greatest fear is going over 60% Female because when that happens it is almost unrecoverable. Men, especially quality applicants, stop applying and so do women. That part I found interesting but fundamentally most women don't want a school that is overwhelmingly female, they want to go to school with boys. It was just so ironic hearing them bemoan how unfair it was that a talented girl who was a musician was denied while a boy with less qualifications was easily admitted. Of course they don't translate that issue to men in Engineering and why the idea of trying to getting a "balanced" class is so destructive as it just keeps kids from being able to do what they want to do.

Something else I discovered listening to these folks is an extremely high percentage of people in Admissions are the opposite of what they preach. Virtually all were Liberal Arts majors and usually from Liberal Arts schools, often in the least marketable ones such as Gender/Race Studies or English. Lots of females. Typical story is they worked in the Admin office during school and gave tours. Then they graduated and got a job in Admissions and worked their way up. Realize that the audience reading your Essays has had a lot of training but are generally a 25-30 year old Liberal Arts major woman sitting on her couch at home and yours is one of 50 she is reading today. She doesn't see herself as a social justice warrior per se but she is going to have a natural bias and you have to break through that if you want to succeed.

For instance don't write about the typical stories. For lots of Upper Middle Class kids that means writing the Adversity Essay about how they had a sports injury and then came back to win in the playoffs or how they went on a Mission trip and got perspective on poverty. Or worse they try and create a story about adversity that isn't really adversity. You need to have focus in your ECs and have some things that are interesting. Playing football and being in NHS for instance is not moving the needle. Unusual sports or activities spark interest. Leadership in 3 organizations is far more valuable than membership in 10. Having experiences in the major you are interested in showing you aren't just taking it because it sounds like what you should do also matters a ton. However competitive you think your competition is just triple it and assume that having a 4.0 and Perfect or near Perfect SAT/ACT is just a pre req to get them to even read more about you. Something else that counts a lot is can you talk specifically about why you want to study at THAT school in THAT major. Show you have actually researched the Profs and the program and speak to it and why you are excited to be there. Don't talk about how it's a pretty campus or how you are a 3rd Gen, talk about the academics and why.

Don't spend all your time trying to get every possible point on your SAT either. The difference between a 1450 and a 1600 to a college doesn't mean a ton. The difference between a 1500 or 1550 and 1600 are virtually nil. Yet a lot of students will spend a huge amount of time doing prep for a few more points that they could otherwise be engaged in interesting EC's or trying for awards or doing Research or getting a relevant job would be far more impactful than a few points on an SAT (I'm not talking about 1200 vs 1400 but more 1500 vs 1550).

Sorry for the long post and I'm sure many are TLDR. I just used to have a lot of anxiety about all this as well and it still pisses me off but in the end it's about solving the problem for your kid. BTW, I completely agree that a huge amount of kids in college today are wasting their time and money being there. I know one of my older sons friends just got a job selling Insurance out of HS with a little training and he's making $60k a year at 20 years old and well on his way. Another is doing welding and another is an auto mechanic and they are making bank and love their jobs. The only reason my kids went to college is because of what they want to do. One is in Maritime Transportation at Galveston. The other wants to do Biomedical Engineering and either develop Med Devices or become a Doctor. Have to go to college for either of those but they are fundamentally just high value trades. There is also value in Liberal Arts and others but it's just not nearly what it used to be and any kid that thinks they can just get a college education in whatever and it will add a ton of value for their resume is naive.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

Ronald Reagan
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bmks270
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10:58a, 4/2/24
AG
Number one in class and 1570 SAT didn't get into MIT? Damn… how many number 1 applications with perfect SAT do they have?

Also, pretty crazy your daughter got rejected from so many California schools with such a high SAT. I guess they have so many applications but still you'd think she'd get accepted to more.

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AggieDruggist89
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In reply to aggie93 • 1:03p, 4/2/24
AG
Couple of thoughts,

You raise many great points and I wholeheartedly agree with everything except UC Santa Cruz in the top 6 UC campuses instead of Davis! : ) Maritime transportation? My dad was in Marchant Marine business, and my son and I almost took a tour of the US Marchant Marine Academy but didn't.

Like you said, I believe the biggest flaw in the top school admission process is the subjectiveness of how they choose who should be admitted. Unfortunately/fortunately, there are too many great applicants with excellent academics than available seats.

One of the intentions of my OP was to discuss the college admission advisor industry that ranges from $85 per hour to $1.5 million dollars to get kids into IVY schools. There's definitely more to top school admission than just academics. We know this. What was unclear to me is the type of Extracurricular Activities. What's unfair is the expectation that HS kids should do things that cures cancer, hike Mt. Everest, and rub elbows with Dalai Lama imo. So what exactly are they looking for? And I believe this is where admission advisors capitalize on way too eager parents who's willing to pay to get admitted. It appears to me there are 2 types of admission counselors, those who have been admitted to these schools and those who are previous admissions counselor at these schools. I'm glad we didn't go this route and I also believe these rejections make my kids stronger.
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AggieDruggist89
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In reply to bmks270 • 1:07p, 4/2/24
AG
bmks270 said:
Number one in class and 1570 SAT didn't get into MIT? Damn… how many number 1 applications with perfect SAT do they have?

Also, pretty crazy your daughter got rejected from so many California schools with such a high SAT. I guess they have so many applications but still you'd think she'd get accepted to more.

Like that's hard? Just kidding. I wasn't even close when I graduated HS in 1985. I got into A&M on 10% rule albeit out of state.

Well, it worked out for my daughter.
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double b
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In reply to AggieDruggist89 • 5:27p, 4/2/24
AG
AggieDruggist89 said:
One of the intentions of my OP was to discuss the college admission advisor industry that ranges from $85 per hour to $1.5 million dollars to get kids into IVY schools. There's definitely more to top school admission than just academics. We know this. What was unclear to me is the type of Extracurricular Activities. What's unfair is the expectation that HS kids should do things that cures cancer, hike Mt. Everest, and rub elbows with Dalai Lama imo. So what exactly are they looking for? And I believe this is where admission advisors capitalize on way too eager parents who's willing to pay to get admitted. It appears to me there are 2 types of admission counselors, those who have been admitted to these schools and those who are previous admissions counselor at these schools. I'm glad we didn't go this route and I also believe these rejections make my kids stronger.

I'm trying to understand your statement here because it seems as if you are denigrating those attached to this industry, but I'll ask, how is this different from a travel club team? The costs associated with this can cost a few hundred dollars to thousands per month if you include all the expenses involved. Most college admission counselors can be found well within those figures. Obviously, those parents and students who participate in a selective travel sport have chosen to invest a lot of time, energy, and money in hopes that their student will have access to selective opportunities after high school. Yes, some are born into situations with fewer resources, and typically, their talent allows them to shine through and earn scholarships. Others have more resources and can purchase the best equipment, nutrition, physical training, and coaching.

Like most things, they evolve over time, and college admissions have drastically evolved since we, as parents, have applied to college. Back then, most of us filled out 1-2 paper applications. If you're of the millennial generation sending kids to college, then you probably completed a few online and wrote a couple of essays that were completed in your English class. Those days no longer exist, and with the advent of test-optional and the common app, college admissions have gotten infinitely more challenging.

Overall, I don't see much difference between families who prepare for college sports and those who have prepared for college admissions. Each takes a considerable effort to achieve.
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AggieDruggist89
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In reply to double b • 6:11p, 4/2/24
AG
I'm not denigrating college admission industry.

I didn't use em for my kids. We also didn't partake in year round private instructions and the only test prep we paid for is my daughter's online LSAT review. My son used free Khan Academy Test prep. I know nothing about travel sports, seems unnecessary but not for me to say. I did say if getting into top colleges is a goal, using the service early would be a good idea as I personally don't have a clear idea what type of ECs look good to the admissions committee at different schools. I don't even understand how they work. Now, I am familiar with post graduate year 1 & 2 pharmacy residency matching process and how subjective and unfair the process can be. It's insane how interviewers rate the applicants.

I think some of us are lamenting the preferential treatment of URMs in the admission process. I don't believe athletics use DEI, URM status or socioeconomics in their selection criteria during recruiting evaluation process.
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aggie93
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In reply to bmks270 • 9:41p, 4/2/24
AG
bmks270 said:
Number one in class and 1570 SAT didn't get into MIT? Damn… how many number 1 applications with perfect SAT do they have?

Also, pretty crazy your daughter got rejected from so many California schools with such a high SAT. I guess they have so many applications but still you'd think she'd get accepted to more.

The average SAT at MIT is 1543. As I said the key is once you are above 1500 it's pretty irrelevant to schools like that. Very few kids are admitted to MIT that ever got a B and aren't taking crazy AP's. My son's Public school in Austin has 3 kids that were admitted to MIT, all basically flawless resumes with exceptional EC's, as in lots of State and National level recognition. MIT had about 27,000 applications and less than 1300 admits. Realize that out of that 27,000 there is HEAVY self selecting out, it's not like a lot of kids with 3.5's and 1300 SAT's are applying to MIT. Virtually all of them are nearly flawless on the GPA/SAT dataset.

Part of that is a lot of schools have grade inflation. Part of that with tutoring and other programs a LOT of kids can get a very high SAT score. Colleges realize that and that's why they don't value it the same way. 20 years ago you didn't have kids taking SAT's 4 or 5 times and using Superscores after taking PSAT's starting in 8th Grade or even before. When you are talking about the Highly Selectives like MIT they expect those scores, with less than 1300 Freshman they can be insanely picky.



"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

Ronald Reagan
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double b
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In reply to AggieDruggist89 • 9:43p, 4/2/24
AG
AggieDruggist89 said:
I'm not denigrating college admission industry.

I didn't use em for my kids. We also didn't partake in year round private instructions and the only test prep we paid for is my daughter's online LSAT review. My son used free Khan Academy Test prep. I know nothing about travel sports, seems unnecessary but not for me to say. I did say if getting into top colleges is a goal, using the service early would be a good idea as I personally don't have a clear idea what type of ECs look good to the admissions committee at different schools. I don't even understand how they work. Now, I am familiar with post graduate year 1 & 2 pharmacy residency matching process and how subjective and unfair the process can be. It's insane how interviewers rate the applicants.

I think some of us are lamenting the preferential treatment of URMs in the admission process. I don't believe athletics use DEI, URM status or socioeconomics in their selection criteria during recruiting evaluation process.
My main point is that college sports, and more specifically, the big D-I athletic scholarships are hard to come by. It's not much different when talking about the top 20-30 out of ~2700 four-year colleges in the US.

Ultimately, I think it is a preference of the family. Some choose to prioritize team sports, band, or other activities. For some, it's academics and gearing up for an uber-selective college. You can't blame those families for dedicating much of their resources to accomplishing that.

I believe the biggest takeaway is that college admissions, like many industries, look very different in a post-covid world and will continue to evolve.

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oragator
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10:12p, 4/2/24
With lots of family applying in recent years, I follow this stuff fairly closely., especially UF.
First thing is that even state schools have gotten crazy hard. UF's admission rate this year was under 22 percent. As mentioned, the Cali schools in particular are even harder. UNC s under 20 now I think. But every year you see UF alums who have kids with amazing resumes getting rejected and threaten to stop donating, the pool is just so deep now.

The other thing is that every school values different things. UF for example values dual enrollment far less than AP classes. If you have volunteer work, they want to see that you committed to and stuck with something and didn't just go find a volunteer shopping every few months to fill your resume. If you were in orgs they want leadership - the scores and grades are just one factor. Another school may overvalue your essay, or test score etc, so it's a crap shoot, I have a friend who had a kid get into a Brown and denied by UF. But the poster above was the likely far more common opposite.

My best advice is if you're kid is going to be in the admissions mixer for competitive schools. pick out two or three schools by sophomore year in HS and really delve into what they care about, then tailor those three years towards that. My family all wanted UF from birth practically so that was easier I suppose, but anyone can at least start researching their primaries early. If they change from them, they can probably find other acceptable schools that have similar admissions values.
JMO.
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bmks270
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In reply to oragator • 10:34p, 4/2/24
AG
From what a I've seen UF admissions is seemingly random.

On some level it's random chance at all of these competitive schools. There are just more good students than there are openings.

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oragator
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In reply to bmks270 • 10:58p, 4/2/24
Lots of people say that, but my family keeps getting in.

Seriously though, research helped that a lot. Which is why I made the suggestion.
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In reply to AggieDruggist89 • 12:13a, 4/3/24
AG
AggieDruggist89 said:
I'm not denigrating college admission industry.

I didn't use em for my kids. We also didn't partake in year round private instructions and the only test prep we paid for is my daughter's online LSAT review. My son used free Khan Academy Test prep. I know nothing about travel sports, seems unnecessary but not for me to say. I did say if getting into top colleges is a goal, using the service early would be a good idea as I personally don't have a clear idea what type of ECs look good to the admissions committee at different schools. I don't even understand how they work. Now, I am familiar with post graduate year 1 & 2 pharmacy residency matching process and how subjective and unfair the process can be. It's insane how interviewers rate the applicants.

I think some of us are lamenting the preferential treatment of URMs in the admission process. I don't believe athletics use DEI, URM status or socioeconomics in their selection criteria during recruiting evaluation process.
There is certainly an industry that has evolved around college admissions because there is a market for it. Like any service you will find good and bad and different specialties. FWIW it's really less race related than you think, if anything sex is the bigger boost or detractor. If it's Engineering girls get a boost. If it's Liberal Arts boys get a boost. Size of the boost depends on the school.

Fundamentally what colleges are trying to do is look at people fairly. If you are a kid from Alice, Texas you simply aren't going to have the same resources and opportunities as a kid from Westlake in Austin or Highland Park in Dallas. Part of that is money and part of that is the environment. My son's school has multiple kids taking AP Calculus as Freshman. Some small schools don't even have Calculus. So does the school simply not admit any of those kids from the small school or poor school? Or do they overcompensate and admit kids that they really want to give a chance to but the reality is the odds are stacked against them to compete with the kid from the far better school and more resources? The kid from a small school might not even know what Khan Academy is much less have access to elite tutors. The kid from the wealthy school may multiple resources at an elite level to choose from. Personally I think Math doesn't care and they overcompensate, often pushing a kid who would likely do great at UTSA studying Engineering and instead have them go to Vanderbilt and study Liberal Arts in a world that is completely foreign to them. I can understand the conflict though.

It's also important to distinguish between the highly selective and the rest. The reality is if you want to go to a Top 25 school your odds are significantly improved with professional guidance, your competition is. So you don't have to do it and you will still get into some good schools for sure, might even get into some Top 25's. The reality is though that if you go to a good HS then those top schools will assume you have gotten that assistance. Does it really matter? Not really unless you really want to go to a Top 25 school. Even then there are no guarantees, the game has gotten extremely competitive on the top end.

I can personally attest to the value of a guy like doubleb. He's done a LOT to help my son. I didn't realize just how much I didn't know until I worked with him. Significant impact to his SAT score but the real key was the strategy. Classes he took that he wouldn't have. Creative ideas about ECs and Research. Having a plan for when and how to focus on each aspect of the process. The ability to have someone to reach out to that had strong familiarity with different schools and programs. Certainly giving him the best chance at scholarships as well. For me it was really all about knowing I was giving my son the best chance to h ave as many options as possible and not wonder. I don't know where he will be accepted or decide to go but I do know that I can feel like I did everything I could as a parent to give him the best opportunity to have choices and scholarships. My son has worked incredibly hard and overcome a good bit of adversity to have options so it's the least I can do.

That said it isn't for everyone. For some it won't make much difference. For others it just isn't their choice. If you do decide to do it make sure to find someone that is right for you because there are always folks that will take your money and not give you the type of help you need just like any service. You can also learn a lot on Youtube and Podcasts if you have the time and desire. Either way it's a game like so many others, choose to play it how you wish.
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12:32a, 4/3/24
AG
As a lazy white parent with a graduating senior in HS, and a senior in college, this is my take on the college industry so far....

People Care More Now
I was born in the middle of gen-x, raised by parents from the middle of the me-generation. I didn't care about my college application and neither did my parents. I think we are all over compensating now and it's a ton harder to get into good schools than it was in 1994.

Applying to Elite Private Schools are mostly a waste of time
The best private schools are damn near impossible to get into, and unless you are poor will be damn expensive. Only two kids that were in my kids' orbit got into elite ivy level schools. Both had super smart academic parents. One was the only kid I have ever met that I thought was truly remarkable (besides my own of course), the other is super smart and had every hour of their week planned out for them since elementary school. Unless you have that type of kid, it's just not worth the time to apply. BTW, neither kid was a "URM".

Also my opinion on "URM", top tier private schools should be free to run their schools however the hell they want. If they think letting legacy money and a somewhat diverse population makes their school better let the rankings prove them wrong.

In-state Publics are your friend, hopefully your state has good ones
OP's two high achieving kids didn't get into an Ivy, but instead they got to pay in-state tuition at the #1 and #6 public school in the nation. Texas lags California in this area. Landlocked UT is #9 but damn near impossible to get in or get your major if you are not a high achieving top-6%, A&M #20 is great but some day it has to stop growing (right?). I have been impressed by UTD (#58) academics, but their overall college experience is lacking. It would be cool to have reciprocity with a state like Florida just for some more options.

Good Bachelors Degree/Debt-free/Co-op or Internships > School Ranking
Nobody is going to give you a good job (or grad school entrance) just for getting a bachelors from a high ranking school. A degree in a respected program with experience is more important. And with housing prices the way they are, if your kid ever wants to be a homeowner, graduating debt free should be the primary goal.

Playing Sports for the sake of a possible scholarships is a suckers bet
I think playing sports is a great, but I've seen the sunk cost fallacy cause kids to end up at crappy schools

SAT/PSAT is the Middle Class Cheat Code
It's not going get you into an Ivy (or even UT), but you can get entry and a lot of money at a lot of schools simply by doing good on one test. Doesn't matter what color you are. In fact some of the whitest states in the nation are the easiest ones to get National Merit. NMF gets you a full ride+ at some decent schools, good scholarships at better schools (like A&M). Straight up high SAT scores will get you free tuition at SEC!SEC!SEC! type schools. For this reason alone, money on prep services can be a good ROI.

Bonus Thought:
Too many smart kids want to be CS majors
This is an industry that was built and perfected by C students, go away smart kids, go back to being BIMS majors.
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In reply to oragator • 12:48a, 4/3/24
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oragator said:
With lots of family applying in recent years, I follow this stuff fairly closely., especially UF.
First thing is that even state schools have gotten crazy hard. UF's admission rate this year was under 22 percent. As mentioned, the Cali schools in particular are even harder. UNC s under 20 now I think. But every year you see UF alums who have kids with amazing resumes getting rejected and threaten to stop donating, the pool is just so deep now.

The other thing is that every school values different things. UF for example values dual enrollment far less than AP classes. If you have volunteer work, they want to see that you committed to and stuck with something and didn't just go find a volunteer shopping every few months to fill your resume. If you were in orgs they want leadership - the scores and grades are just one factor. Another school may overvalue your essay, or test score etc, so it's a crap shoot, I have a friend who had a kid get into a Brown and denied by UF. But the poster above was the likely far more common opposite.

My best advice is if you're kid is going to be in the admissions mixer for competitive schools. pick out two or three schools by sophomore year in HS and really delve into what they care about, then tailor those three years towards that. My family all wanted UF from birth practically so that was easier I suppose, but anyone can at least start researching their primaries early. If they change from them, they can probably find other acceptable schools that have similar admissions values.
JMO.
Actually UNC is even worse than that for most. It has a very small number of admits available for OOS. So if you are Instate it's certainly difficult but reasonable. OOS though? The rate for last year was under 6% and it's going to keep getting harder unless they raise the OOS limit.

There are a lot of schools that used to have admission rates just a few years ago of 30-40% that are now more like 10-15%.

It's also random but not random. Each school has different priorities. You see that at A&M and Texas now. Major has a big impact on acceptance rates at some schools. Institutional priorities around class sizes and composition matter. Schools have more data than ever before and can analyze applications in ways like they never have before. Schools also have to look at yield. For instance a school may not admit a kid who is obviously overqualified if they know they aren't likely to come. Some schools put a lot of value on Demonstrated Interest. It's just really complicated and changing constantly.
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7:29a, 4/3/24
AG
Major indeed is a huge factor. Again I go back to my son's best friends who both had mediocre grades in HS but studied accounting and finance (at OU and Kansas) and both landed very sweet gigs post graduation.

I have seen firsthand friends and acquaintances of my son who just had to go that "elite" school only to major in communications or government and are now like, WTF?!?!?! Not saying that is a bad thing, but it is those who graduate with in demand majors who I find to be the most successful.

I am in development and PE. Our firm just doesn't really have a spot for a journalism major from UT, but if you have a finance degree with great grades from UTSA or Tech then we can atleast have a conversation.
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In reply to BoDog • 10:13a, 4/3/24
AG
BoDog said:
Major indeed is a huge factor. Again I go back to my son's best friends who both had mediocre grades in HS but studied accounting and finance (at OU and Kansas) and both landed very sweet gigs post graduation.

I have seen firsthand friends and acquaintances of my son who just had to go that "elite" school only to major in communications or government and are now like, WTF?!?!?! Not saying that is a bad thing, but it is those who graduate with in demand majors who I find to be the most successful.

I am in development and PE. Our firm just doesn't really have a spot for a journalism major from UT, but if you have a finance degree with great grades from UTSA or Tech then we can atleast have a conversation.
No doubt you need a plan if you are going to college. It's ok to change the plan but to me it's a big step in adulting to look at what you want to study, understand what a school offers, then look at jobs and careers after school. It amazes me how many kids just go to college as 13th grade with no real idea of what they want to do. It amazes me even more how many parents think that's just fine.

I will admit I only had a general idea of what I was going to do when I went to college but college was far, far less expensive back then and you couldn't just hop on the internet and find out droves of information with ease. It ended up resulting in my finding a career more through luck than anything and a lot of wasted time. I was not going to let that happen with my kids. I wanted them to explore and find their passions but I have helped them from an early age to find direction when they had interests. My boys couldn't be studying more different things but both love what they do and are doing well in large part because they are excited about what they are doing. They will likely both do well financially but I was less concerned about that as much as finding something they could pursue as a career they would enjoy and make a living they felt good about.

Still the point in terms of admissions has to do with colleges trying to fill slots. If you want to go to A&M and do Engineering or Mays it's definitely harder to get in than History. If you want to go to Texas it's extremely hard to get into Comp Sci but you can get in for English pretty easily. At some schools, mainly big public schools but also others, you have to apply to a Major and it's hard to move. For others it is completely open to change majors.

Research is key. It's a monster investment and will impact your kid's life as much as any decision they have made to that point and should be treated as such. The right choice can be amazing. The wrong one can be extremely costly.
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AggieDruggist89
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In reply to Another Doug • 10:27a, 4/3/24
AG
Quote:
People Care More Now.
I was born in the middle of gen-x, raised by parents from the middle of the me-generation. I didn't care about my college application and neither did my parents. I think we are all over compensating now and it's a ton harder to get into good schools than it was in 1994.

I think people always cared. But now there are more people who care. In my time, 80's and early 90's when Will Ferrell and I were applying to USC, acceptance rate was about 75%. What is it now, 12%

Quote:
Applying to Elite Private Schools are mostly a waste of time.
The best private schools are damn near impossible to get into, and unless you are poor will be damn expensive. Only two kids that were in my kids' orbit got into elite ivy level schools. Both had super smart academic parents. One was the only kid I have ever met that I thought was truly remarkable (besides my own of course), the other is super smart and had every hour of their week planned out for them since elementary school. Unless you have that type of kid, it's just not worth the time to apply. BTW, neither kid was a "URM".

Also my opinion on "URM", top tier private schools should be free to run their schools however the hell they want. If they think letting legacy money and a somewhat diverse population makes their school better let the rankings prove them wrong.

True, we were never going to pay full price for my kids to attend top schools. Perhaps use the acceptance as a leverage for more scholarships.

Quote:
In-state Publics are your friend, hopefully your state has good ones.
OP's two high achieving kids didn't get into an Ivy, but instead they got to pay in-state tuition at the #1 and #6 public school in the nation. Texas lags California in this area. Landlocked UT is #9 but damn near impossible to get in or get your major if you are not a high achieving top-6%, A&M #20 is great but some day it has to stop growing (right?). I have been impressed by UTD (#58) academics, but their overall college experience is lacking. It would be cool to have reciprocity with a state like Florida just for some more options.

USNWR states that college ranking is based on 42% related to graduation rates and 20% peer assessment. I say BS to this. I think they use % acceptance. Having said that, when comparing flagship state institutions, can we really say the quality of education will be that much different? Sure there are some exceptions in certain majors.

Quote:
Good Bachelors Degree/Debt-free/Co-op or Internships > School Ranking.
Nobody is going to give you a good job (or grad school entrance) just for getting a bachelors from a high ranking school. A degree in a respected program with experience is more important. And with housing prices the way they are, if your kid ever wants to be a homeowner, graduating debt free should be the primary goal.

Absolutely true. Graduate/professional degree requirement has been mandatory in my household. My daughter during first few weeks of HS came home very puzzled and said "Daddy... my counselor said college is optional, is that true?" You know the answer I gave.

Quote:
SAT/PSAT is the Middle Class Cheat Code.
It's not going get you into an Ivy (or even UT), but you can get entry and a lot of money at a lot of schools simply by doing good on one test. Doesn't matter what color you are. In fact some of the whitest states in the nation are the easiest ones to get National Merit. NMF gets you a full ride+ at some decent schools, good scholarships at better schools (like A&M). Straight up high SAT scores will get you free tuition at SEC!SEC!SEC! type schools. For this reason alone, money on prep services can be a good ROI.

c'mon man... every kid knows Khan Academy is good and free. Rich, poor, middle class....

Quote:
Bonus Thought:
Too many smart kids want to be CS majors
This is an industry that was built and perfected by C students, go away smart kids, go back to being BIMS majors.

Agreed. CS was never encouraged for my kids.
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Another Doug
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2:00p, 4/3/24
AG
Quote:
c'mon man... every kid knows Khan Academy is good and free. Rich, poor, middle class....
I think the best part of prep is the simulated tests, the review afterwards and knowing what your target score should be. I would rather throw money at the problem then try to have me or my kid try and replicate that with Khan Academy. Like I said, I am lazy and would rather be mad at double b than myself.
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scrimp
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In reply to Another Doug • 2:27p, 4/3/24
AG
My oldest is a freshman in college and went through the process last year. It is crazy compared to 30 years ago.

My take on most of it is this--the system for elite schools isn't necessarily random, but it can certainly feel that way. My son applied to several elite schools where his stats were above the averages (SAT, ACT, GPA, ECs, etc), and got in to a few and got turned down from many of them. One of his good friends got accepted into MIT, and turned down from USC...... It's impossible to decipher the "why?" of a decline since they don't tell you any details, just a yes or no. The DEI stuff is an easy target to point at, but I'm not certain it is as big a factor as people think.

There are some areas that do seem to be a significant factor -- legacy/political connections, varsity athlete, QuestBridge and/or first generation seem to have big influence. I also think yield protection is a bigger factor at some non Ivy elite schools

Quote:

People Care More Now
Yes and no--I think the group of parents of this generation of high school grads has diverged into the "We really care alot" crowd, and the "You're on your own, kid" group of parents.

Applying to Elite Private Schools are mostly a waste of time
With the common app, it isn't that much more effort to apply to all the T20 schools. But, unless you are a UHNW and can pay full retail without issue, or fall under the limits to get full grant based aid, the cost may outweigh the benefits. Even at half price, an Ivy is going to cost $160k or more over the course of an undergrad degree.

In-state Publics are your friend, hopefully your state has good ones
Agreed. Sucks when your in-state options are limited.

Good Bachelors Degree/Debt-free/Co-op or Internships > School Ranking
Agreed to an extent. I do think the Ivies and the CalTech/MIT types open some doors for a first job, but after that it is more on the individual's achievements.

Playing Sports for the sake of a possible scholarships is a suckers bet
Completely agree

SAT/PSAT is the Middle Class Cheat Code
Probably some truth here.
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In reply to AggieDruggist89 • 4:52p, 4/3/24
AG
FWIW, here is the new US News formula:


2024 National Universities Weight for Schools With Usable SAT/ACT

Alumni giving average
0%

Borrower debt
5%

Citations per publication
1.25%

Class size
0%

College grads earning more than a high school grad
5%

Faculty salaries
6%

Field weighted citation impact
1.25%

Financial resources per student
8%

First generation graduation rate performance
2.5%

First generation graduation rates
2.5%

First-year retention rates
5%

Full-time faculty
2%

Graduate debt proportion borrowing
0%

Graduation rate performance
10%

Graduation rates
16%

High school class standing
0%

Peer assessment
20%

Pell graduation performance
3%

Pell graduation rates
3%

Publications cited in top 25% of journals
0.5%

Publications cited in top 5% of journals
1%

Standardized tests
5%

Student-faculty ratio
3%

Terminal degree faculty
0%

TOTAL
100%

Personally I just look at USN as a data point and that's about it. If you really learn about some of the schools you can see some real head scratchers. When you get into the rankings on Majors it's got more as well. It really is about what is the best fit for you and not some ranking.


"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

Ronald Reagan
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double b
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In reply to Another Doug • 8:24a, 4/5/24
AG
Another Doug said:
Quote:
c'mon man... every kid knows Khan Academy is good and free. Rich, poor, middle class....
I think the best part of prep is the simulated tests, the review afterwards and knowing what your target score should be. I would rather throw money at the problem then try to have me or my kid try and replicate that with Khan Academy. Like I said, I am lazy and would rather be mad at double b than myself.
Having a career that depends on 14-17-year-olds consistently excelling is not for the faint of heart. Let me tell you, I've accumulated a lot more gray hairs since I began.
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Bonfire.1996
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In reply to He Who Shall Be Unnamed • 9:32a, 4/5/24
You aren't alone my friend.

Son: Rejected MIT, Mich, GaTech

36 ACT first try never studied
1530/1540 SAT first two tries never studied
National Merit Finalist
Valedictorian in 5A high school
Highest GPA in school history
5s on all AP test except Physics - 4
Academic UIL 5A State Bronze medal as Junior, will win Gold this year
3 year varsity basketball - All District Senior year
Volunteered at youth camps over Summers
Volunteered all year at all kinds of things
Worked at chick Fil a, lifeguarding now, youth sports referee, you name it

He's been an Aggie his whole life, so it's all good, but the most frustrating thing is my son learning how the USA works at age 17. Meritocracy is finished and I hope it hasn't influenced his drive for greatness.
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double b
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In reply to Bonfire.1996 • 9:52a, 4/5/24
AG
Bonfire.1996 said:
You aren't alone my friend.

Son: Rejected MIT, Mich, GaTech

36 ACT first try never studied
1530/1540 SAT first two tries never studied
National Merit Finalist
Valedictorian in 5A high school
Highest GPA in school history
5s on all AP test except Physics - 4
Academic UIL 5A State Bronze medal as Junior, will win Gold this year
3 year varsity basketball - All District Senior year
Volunteered at youth camps over Summers
Volunteered all year at all kinds of things
Worked at chick Fil a, lifeguarding now, youth sports referee, you name it

He's been an Aggie his whole life, so it's all good, but the most frustrating thing is my son learning how the USA works at age 17. Meritocracy is finished and I hope it hasn't influenced his drive for greatness.
I certainly understand your frustration in this process and your son sounds like a phenomenal person. I am quite sure he will make an excellent citizen and will give back more to society than he takes.

However, he sounds like the classic case of a well-rounded student, and selective colleges want students to be "pointy" or "angular" in college applications. All of the schools you mentioned have an essay asking "why this major" question. More than likely, his response and his resume didn't match up well. I bet with a little bit of guidance and support, the results may been very different for Ga Tech and UMICH. MIT on the other hand, it's a completely different beast.

Also, anyone thinking of MIT you will at least need one of these things for a STEM field, and the more you can accumulate, the better your odds are for admissions.

  • University-level research
  • Research Publication
  • Summer Internship with a well-known company
  • Super Selective Summer Research Program (RSI, Welch Scholars, Fermi Lab, etc.)
  • National Academic Accomplishments (USACO, AIME/AMO, F=MA, Robotics, etc.)
  • Start a non-profit

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AggieDruggist89
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In reply to double b • 10:07a, 4/5/24
AG
double b said:



Also, anyone thinking of MIT you will at least need one of these things for a STEM field, and the more you can accumulate, the better your odds are for admissions.

  • University-level research
  • Research Publication
  • Summer Internship with a well-known company
  • Super Selective Summer Research Program (RSI, Welch Scholars, Fermi Lab, etc.)
  • National Academic Accomplishments (USACO, AIME/AMO, F=MA, Robotics, etc.)
  • Start a non-profit

And how should normal parents and students know this?
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double b
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In reply to AggieDruggist89 • 10:10a, 4/5/24
AG
AggieDruggist89 said:
double b said:



Also, anyone thinking of MIT you will at least need one of these things for a STEM field, and the more you can accumulate, the better your odds are for admissions.

  • University-level research
  • Research Publication
  • Summer Internship with a well-known company
  • Super Selective Summer Research Program (RSI, Welch Scholars, Fermi Lab, etc.)
  • National Academic Accomplishments (USACO, AIME/AMO, F=MA, Robotics, etc.)
  • Start a non-profit

And how should normal parents and students know this?


You research other admission profiles and start young.
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AggieDruggist89
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10:12a, 4/5/24
AG
I'm getting my son hooked up with an advisor now for his grad school applications. Hopefully that's covered by 529.
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double b
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In reply to AggieDruggist89 • 10:22a, 4/5/24
AG
AggieDruggist89 said:
I'm getting my son hooked up with an advisor now for his grad school applications. Hopefully that's covered by 529.


That's a very smart choice and not to leave things to chance.
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