Speaking of the lessons of the Civil War, Sherman's March to the Sea could be a model Trump is following in Iran starting Tuesday. That is, make war so painful on the general population that they don't rise up and fight for generations. Trump and Bibi will destroy Iran's transportation and utility infrastructure then plunder their oil.

The problem is I've read all of these books about how airpower alone doesn't subdue populations... it instead pisses off populations and makes them fight with more bravado.

On the other hand, early use of airpower (biplanes circa 1920-1940) by colonial Great Britain on revolts in weak Third World colonies saw some success. If the colony inhabitants didn't bend a knee to London's demands, they'd send in the airplanes to burn the crops.

The problem I see is that Iran isn't just a colony.

War crimes, hell yeah.

To win something you need a homogenous population who fights united. But we decided to get rid of that in exchange for $$$. Now we are not united. So you are right.

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That is, make war so painful on the general population that they don't rise up and fight for generations.

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We tried this in Vietnam. It did not work. Operation Rolling Thunder and everything else followed the same path Trump and his team are walking down right now.

1) The U.S. was too gradual and allowed Vietnam to disperse everything to hardened and disparate zones. This is already happening in Iran/

2) We bombed a lot of things for sheer optics like we are doing right now.

3) We hastened foreign aid into Vietnam from China and the USSR, which propped up the regime. You are now seeing Russian and Chinese intelligence and tech on the Iran battlefield and we magically lose 4 aircraft in a single day.

4) We hardened the attitudes of the North Vietnamese rather than cowing them. Time will tell if this hardens the attitudes of Iranians but our bombing of a girl's school to start the conflict did not win hearts and minds.

rebelag62 said:

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War crimes, hell yeah.

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First of all, In the words of The fat electrician, " its never a war crime the first time." So be creative.

After 24 years in the AF, and currently working as a contractor supporting an active duty unit I can say there are absolutely some great young Americans working in the military. There are multiple levels of legal review for every strike that happens, and the process is built to advise (always) and protect (mostly) the commander that buys the bomb for every strike. It actually takes more than a Facebook level depth of knowledge to determine whether a strike was (or will be) legal.
But hey thats just my opinion and I am sure others have their own. The discussion is fun regardless.

I'm not saying we're committing war crimes, and I know our ROE is extensive. Everything that can be is recorded, like you said, have to CYA. My response was to the guy that said let's use Sherman's march as a template. I think he was joking, but I'm not so sure.

Lone Star Echoes said:

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rebelag62 said:

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War crimes, hell yeah.

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First of all, In the words of The fat electrician, " its never a war crime the first time." So be creative.

After 24 years in the AF, and currently working as a contractor supporting an active duty unit I can say there are absolutely some great young Americans working in the military. There are multiple levels of legal review for every strike that happens, and the process is built to advise (always) and protect (mostly) the commander that buys the bomb for every strike. It actually takes more than a Facebook level depth of knowledge to determine whether a strike was (or will be) legal.
But hey thats just my opinion and I am sure others have their own. The discussion is fun regardless.

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The legal review of targets offers some relief.

Windy City Ag said:

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That is, make war so painful on the general population that they don't rise up and fight for generations.

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We tried this in Vietnam. It did not work. Operation Rolling Thunder and everything else followed the same path Trump and his team are walking down right now.

1) The U.S. was too gradual and allowed Vietnam to disperse everything to hardened and disparate zones. This is already happening in Iran/

2) We bombed a lot of things for sheer optics like we are doing right now.

3) We hastened foreign aid into Vietnam from China and the USSR, which propped up the regime. You are now seeing Russian and Chinese intelligence and tech on the Iran battlefield and we magically lose 4 aircraft in a single day.

4) We hardened the attitudes of the North Vietnamese rather than cowing them. Time will tell if this hardens the attitudes of Iranians but our bombing of a girl's school to start the conflict did not win hearts and minds.

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The Persians aren't taking to liking our bombing much, I fear. The social media posts I see from Iranian expats (and etc) are not reassuring because I don't believe they represent the reality on the ground in Tehran. I recall in 2003, the Iraqis were said to be rejoicing in the streets welcoming the U.S. liberators by throwing flowers at them as our troops marched through downtown Baghdad. That was a lie. If there were showers of flowers, they lasted about 48 hours before the insurgency began.

doubledog said:

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America First Committee: At its peak in 1940-1941, the main anti-war organization, the America First Committee, had approximately 800,000 members.

That all changed with Pearl Harbor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America_First_Committee

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Streets named after Charles Lindbergh across America were renamed because of this treacherous AFC.

LMCane said:

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we have to understand how within two generations (my grandfather fought as a co-pilot in B-24s over Yugoslavia and Rumania)

how did the USA go from fighting literally all over the planet and using flamethrowers on Japanese soldiers and dropping nuclear bombs.

to now not being able to take out a nuclear program with only 14 dead?

the Civil War had 603,000 dead Americans over four years!

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You are also wrong. That is a bogus number created by a couple of Union officers in the early 20th Century who wanted to write a book. It is estimated that from 752,000 to 851,000 soldiers died during the War Between the States. That does not include tens of thousands of civilians.

its both.

The Ex Officio Director said:

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Ag with kids said:

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Bull Meachem said:

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Deerdude said:

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*War of Northern Aggression

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Except we (the Union) didn't start the aggression.

Why do southerners who call it the WONA sound like Billie Eilish?

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The union was held together the same way an abusive marriage is held together...

The south got its ass kicked and was told to sit down, shut up, and be good, or it would get another black eye...

And now, smile and tell everyone you're happy being in this relationship...

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Well as of the beginning of the 21st C, its looking like we are going to the ones running be running it. The yanks went demwit, high tax, nuts and are economically checking out.

Bull Meachem said:

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Except the relationship wasn't abusive..

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The north and the south had been butting heads for decades...

It was not a happy relationship.

And when the south wanted to end it, the north beat the **** of the south to force them to stay in the relationship. And made SURE the south knew their place for over a decade...

We learned a long time ago that if we do not fight them there, eventually we will fight them here.

However, what this country is guilty of is allowing the left to rewrite history to favor them.

Destroying Civil War monuments, renaming military bases, attacking our founding fathers for who they were instead of remembering what they created and sacrificed.

I am shocked that we have lasted this long however, it looks like we are now plunging into the abyss and the plunge is just getting faster.