Total boomer luxury communism

31,126 Views | 775 Replies | Last: 2 days ago by MemphisAg1
Zobel
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AG
Round two. This is an unpopular topic because boomers feel that they have contributed to a system - paid into it - and are therefore morally entitled to receive what they feel they are owed.

However, as this article shows, there are three real world problems.

One is that the program was really intended as a bulwark against true poverty for the elderly. FDR said "We can never insure one hundred percent of the population against one hundred percent of the hazards and vicissitudes of life, but we have tried to frame a law which will give some measure of protection to the average citizen and to his family against the loss of a job and against poverty-ridden old age." He also said "The Act does not offer anyone, either individually or collectively, an easy life-nor was it ever intended so to do. None of the sums of money paid out to individuals in assistance or insurance will spell anything approaching abundance. But they will furnish that minimum necessary to keep a foothold; and that is the kind of protection Americans want." The purpose has shifted as our national and generational wealth has shifted. Rather than being a kind of insurance safety net against destitution, people view it as a retirement program that they've contributed toward. This political framing matters a great deal. This will probably be the bulk of the responses - people basically saying they contributed so now they are owed.

The second is that regardless of the intent, or how people view it, there is a very real wealth transfer happening from the young to the old as a result of the current system. There are economic and social consequences of this. Feelings of low optimism, delays in housing purchases and marriage, birth rate suppression are all downstream of things like this.

The final and most important one is that as the system stands today, we can't afford it. We have debt, and as the article notes, the system costs in multiple compounding ways - tax and debt today, inflation for deficit spending and debt financing tomorrow.

I think it's important for people to accept that what is happening is wealth transfer and to come to terms with the reality of the system that was created and what it has become: a pay as you go, aged based welfare system that does not save for the future for individuals but instead uses current workers wages to pay retirees. No parent that I know would do this to their own children unless they had no other choice, but collectively we are doing it to our children.

The other piece is that there's an element of unwitting hypocrisy because of the political framing. People view those on welfare as economic deadweight, unworthy receiving largesse from taxpayers - but because they paid taxes in the past, they don't apply this same standard RJ themselves.

A quote from the article:
Quote:

Too often, though, defenders of the conservative movement take it for granted that America preserved a free market system and constitutional government through the Cold War era. Typically, our situation is compared with the centralized control of the CCP. If this comparison is accurate, however, it's hard to see it in the data. In his book Breakneck, Dan Wang observes,

Nearly three-quarters of China's population are spared from paying income tax…. Low taxes make China stingy on welfare. Around 10 percent of its GDP goes toward social spending, compared to 20 percent in the United States and 30 percent among the more generous European states. China's pension and health care spending are much lower than that of other rich countries.

In fact, Wang's comparison understates how much more the American government redistributes wealth compared to China. America is three times as wealthy, per person, as China. So the U.S. spends at least six times as much per person on social programs as China - and most of that goes to seniors.




There is a real problem here, we've known it for years.

https://americanmind.org/salvo/what-is-total-boomer-luxury-communism/
fc2112
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Zobel said:

there is a very real wealth transfer happening from the young to the old as a result of the current system.

that's not a bug - it's a feature.
backintexas2013
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AG
Agreed let's get rid of it. Also get rid of Medicaid too because people should be responsible for themselves.

Social security is and has always been an income redistribution scheme. We need to eliminate it completely. Im down for it. Are you?
fc2112
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And the post office too. Use FedEx for everything.

And the Army. If you can't defend yourself, you deserve to be invaded.
techno-ag
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AG
Get a job.

/boomers
The left cannot kill the Spirit of Charlie Kirk.
MemphisAg1
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You're being very selective in your generational bashing.

When I was young with three young kids I benefitted from the transfer of wealth from the old to the young to pay for public schools. My kids all went to public school even though I essentially paid nothing for it because I was in rental property or a small first-time, low-value home.

As 20 years passed and my kids exited the public school system, my standard of living also improved to owning large homes and paying much more in property taxes, most of which goes to local school districts. From my mid 40's to mid 80's life expectancy, I will help fund a free public education for the younger segment of society. A transfer from older to younger.

And I'm ok with that because I benefitted from it when I was younger. It's now my turn to return the favor.

SS and Medicare are that situation in reverse, except recipients actually pay into it for their entire working life. It is true that it is financed by payments from current workers. That's how it was designed. When you're old you will also draw SS/MC benefits that are paid in the moment by younger workers.

SS/MC funding needs obvious fixes with the obvious shortfall in front of us. Let's have the debate on how to do that. But spare me the selective boomer hate while you ignore other public funding mechanisms that transfer from older to younger.
backintexas2013
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AG
National defense is absolutely in the constitution.
IIIHorn
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.
Logos Stick
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TLDR
Zobel
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AG
I'd pay into it and never receive it if that meant could be sunsetted with a hard end date and fix our deficit and budget problems.
HunterAggie
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Pay into Social Security for 50 years

then get a pittance in return

and it is taxed.

Incredibly efficient use of my money.

And while it won't support me in my old age, it will allow me to not have to rely on my children or grandchildren for support.

It's too late to eliminate Social Security. But you can make changes to it to make it more efficient.

(And by the way, if you were smart enough to put back money into your own savings for retirement (401k, etc.), then the government jams you for higher Medicare payments. It's all a game).
HunterAggie

The Elko Era is in Action
Zobel
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AG
There's no boomer hate here my friend. Just facts.

There's a difference of kind between taxes for public schools or services and direct payments, don't you agree?
tysker
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Hot take alert:
if you receive welfare from the federal government (most commonly Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid), you shouldn't be permitted to vote in federal elections.

You can receive all the welfare and payments you think you deserve but you don't also receive the power to force others to pay for your lifestyle choices.
Serious Lee
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you know he wont follow through with it, but Ezekiel Emanuel said what no one wants to admit:

Quote:

Emanuel wrote that he would refuse all medical interventionsincluding antibiotics and vaccinationsafter he turned 75 years old, saying he believes older Americans live too long in a deteriorating state.

Quote:

"But here is a simple truth that many of us seem to resist: living too long is also a loss. It renders many of us if not disabled then faltering and declining, a state that may not be worse than death but is nonetheless deprived . . . We are no longer remembered as vibrant and engaged but as feeble, ineffectual, even pathetic."

IIIHorn
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Logos Stick said:

TLDR

TL
schmellba99
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Zobel said:

Round two. This is an unpopular topic because boomers feel that they have contributed to a system - paid into it - and are therefore morally entitled to receive what they feel they are owed.


When your argument starts with a false premise, your argument is false across the board.

Here is the deal - it isn't that they (and my Gen X fellow folks) "feel" that we have contributed to a system and are morally entitle to received what we "feel" we are owed.

We HAVE contributed to a system, and for most of us it was against our will. And that very system is a prime driving factor in why we have to work until we are 60, 65, 70+ instead of being able to retire early should we choose to do so.

And we were TOLD that our money (emphasis on our, not yours, not the governments - ours) was guaranteed and that when we reached the arbitrary retriement age that the overlords that don't contribute into said system have set for us, we would get OUR money back.

So lets, once again, get this correct:

Money paid into the SS system is OUR money. We are entitled to it because of how legislation is written.

The government has F'd the system up. It was F'd from the get go, but it was the government that made the rules we are forced to follow lest that same government throw us in prison. The answer is not to tell all of us to go F ourselves, you get nothing even though we have stolen from you for 50 years of your life and yeah, it sucks that you couldn't invest that money and had to work 25 years longer as a result.

The answer is for the government to quit spending money. Period. Full Stop. There is no other solution and any suggestion otherwise is flat out saying that you agree that it is perfectly acceptable to steal MY money from me or that you think it is perfectly acceptable to change the rules of an agreemen unilaterally just before the other party is to receive whatever fruits of said agreement are. And if you think either one of those is OK, you are a gigantic POS that has no business being in any position to make any decision, ever and honestly deserve to be put in a position where you get your ass kicked (in reality - physically get beat) every single day of your life until you die.
AgGrad99
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Quote:

This is an unpopular topic because boomers feel that they have contributed to a system - paid into it - and are therefore morally entitled to receive what they feel they are owed.

I'm confused by that statement.

They 'feel' like they contributed? They dont feel that way...they actually did.

In what other walk of life, can someone force you to save your money, and then go spend that savings on someone/something else? Would it be cool if the bank did this with your account? Or your financial advisor?

Yes, the system is absolute crap, and needs to be fixed/replaced/reformed....but you can't just disappear an entire generations savings, that they were forced to participate in.
DrEvazanPhD
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HunterAggie said:

Pay into Social Security for 50 years

then get a pittance in return

and it is taxed.

Incredibly efficient use of my money.

And while it won't support me in my old age, it will allow me to not have to rely on my children or grandchildren for support.

It's too late to eliminate Social Security. But you can make changes to it to make it more efficient.

(And by the way, if you were smart enough to put back money into your own savings for retirement (401k, etc.), then the government jams you for higher Medicare payments. It's all a game).

Yep. If i invested the max SS each year (we'll call it 11,000) for the next 25 years, i'd have almost 900k when i was done. Taking disbursements of 3500 a month after that would last me 20+ years.
tysker
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Quote:

And while it won't support me in my old age, it will allow me to not have to rely on my children or grandchildren for support.

Well your kids and grand kids are in fact depositing into the same pool of money that you are puling from, so they (and all of us) are actually supporting you enough for you to get by. Seems like it works exactly as expected.
schmellba99
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tysker said:

Hot take alert:
if you receive welfare from the federal government (most commonly Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid), you shouldn't be permitted to vote in federal elections.

You can receive all the welfare and payments you think you deserve but you don't also receive the power to force others to pay for your lifestyle choices.

SS is absolutely not welfare from the government, and the idea that it is means you are on the low end of the IQ scale.

For that matter, medicare isn't either since if you were to look at your pay stub you'll see a line item on there where the feds have forcibly taken money from you to pay for it.
Zobel
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AgGrad99 said:

Quote:

This is an unpopular topic because boomers feel that they have contributed to a system - paid into it - and are therefore morally entitled to receive what they feel they are owed.

I'm confused by that statement.

They 'feel' like they contributed? They dont feel that way...they actually did.

In what other walk of life, can someone force you to save your money, and then go spend that savings on someone/something else? Would it be cool if the bank did this with your account? Or your financial advisor?

Yes, the system is absolute crap, and needs to be fixed/replaced/reformed....but you can't just disappear an entire generations savings, that they were forced to participate in.



Both of the two responses above me are focusing the feeling portion on the fact and not the conclusion. They (we) did pay taxes, that's a fact. But the feeling is about whether we are morally entitled to future payments based on past taxation.

That is not how the system works though. It is not an individual retirement account. It is a pay as you go system. The money we really paid was paid out. There's also no cap to the amount you can get back based on what you put in - so clearly the in and out aren't linked.
Zobel
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AG
The problem is it's all paygo, so you need to do nominal to nominal. Not compounding returns.
AgGrad99
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Quote:

Both of the two responses above me are focusing the feeling portion on the fact and not the conclusion.

Well, a conclusion is a result of a premise.

If the premise is faulty...


Again, no one argues the system is broke. We understand how the system works. But you cannot simply disappear a generation's money, and think that is ok.
Over_ed
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Zobel said:

There's no boomer hate here my friend. Just facts.

There's a difference of kind between taxes for public schools or services and direct payments, don't you agree?

Yep, old people vote. That is part of the problem. Old people were forced to pay into a system that they did not devise. Nearly old people are relying on these benefits to them as well...

And, probably most importantly, while people work their "contributions" go to older generations.

So it is all a mess.

Not sure what solution would get through our govt, though? Your proposal?

I'm gonna run out of stars, need to quit the thread.
tysker
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AgGrad99 said:

Quote:

This is an unpopular topic because boomers feel that they have contributed to a system - paid into it - and are therefore morally entitled to receive what they feel they are owed.

I'm confused by that statement.

They 'feel' like they contributed? They dont feel that way...they actually did.

In what other walk of life, can someone force you to save your money, and then go spend that savings on someone/something else? Would it be cool if the bank did this with your account? Or your financial advisor?

Yes, the system is absolute crap, and needs to be fixed/replaced/reformed....but you can't just disappear an entire generations savings, that they were forced to participate in.


Contributed is the wrong word. The proper word is closer to 'transferred' or 'shifted' or 'conveyed.'

Contributed assumes a distribution. There has never been a guarantee of distribution
Martin Cash
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fc2112 said:

And the post office too. Use FedEx for everything.

And the Army. If you can't defend yourself, you deserve to be invaded.

I can't decide if this is sarcasm, or the silliest thing I've read on TexAgs in a long time.
The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left. Ecclesiastes 10:2
Rapier108
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AgGrad99 said:


Quote:

Both of the two responses above me are focusing the feeling portion on the fact and not the conclusion.

Well, a conclusion is a result of a premise.

If the premise is faulty...


Again, no one argues the system is broke. We understand how the system works. But you cannot simply disappear a generation's money, and think that is ok.

Some people would have no problem screwing every single "boomer" living today out of every penny they have because they see them as the cause of all of their problems.
AgGrad99
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AG
tysker said:

AgGrad99 said:

Quote:

This is an unpopular topic because boomers feel that they have contributed to a system - paid into it - and are therefore morally entitled to receive what they feel they are owed.

I'm confused by that statement.

They 'feel' like they contributed? They dont feel that way...they actually did.

In what other walk of life, can someone force you to save your money, and then go spend that savings on someone/something else? Would it be cool if the bank did this with your account? Or your financial advisor?

Yes, the system is absolute crap, and needs to be fixed/replaced/reformed....but you can't just disappear an entire generations savings, that they were forced to participate in.


Contributed is the wrong word. The proper word is closer to 'transferred' or 'shifted' or 'conveyed.'

Contributed assumes a distribution. There has never been a guarantee of distribution


Distribution is the entire point of the system. It's the only reason the crappy system was created to begin with.

And terminology aside, the point still remains.
Zobel
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schmellba99 said:

The answer is for the government to quit spending money. Period. Full Stop. There is no other solution and any suggestion otherwise is flat out saying that you agree that it is perfectly acceptable to steal MY money from me or that you think it is perfectly acceptable to change the rules of an agreemen unilaterally just before the other party is to receive whatever fruits of said agreement are. And if you think either one of those is OK, you are a gigantic POS that has no business being in any position to make any decision, ever and honestly deserve to be put in a position where you get your ass kicked (in reality - physically get beat) every single day of your life until you die.

The problem is the only way to "quit spending money" as you say is the one you're not allowing. Entitlement spending is 65% of federal expenditures and 85% of revenues.

We have a huge deficit and someone is going to pay it. You're just saying YOURE not going to pay it, your kids are. The money is already "stolen" as you put it. You're just saying to keep digging and leave the next guy holding the bag. Someone has to put an end to the Ponzi scheme.
Over_ed
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tysker said:

AgGrad99 said:

Quote:

This is an unpopular topic because boomers feel that they have contributed to a system - paid into it - and are therefore morally entitled to receive what they feel they are owed.

I'm confused by that statement.

They 'feel' like they contributed? They dont feel that way...they actually did.

In what other walk of life, can someone force you to save your money, and then go spend that savings on someone/something else? Would it be cool if the bank did this with your account? Or your financial advisor?

Yes, the system is absolute crap, and needs to be fixed/replaced/reformed....but you can't just disappear an entire generations savings, that they were forced to participate in.


Contributed is the wrong word. The proper word is closer to 'transferred' or 'shifted' or 'conveyed.'

Contributed assumes a distribution. There has never been a guarantee of distribution

Obviously you have not visited the social security site, received an estimate of benefits, etc. Now if you want to rephrase that in terms of -- you should not have believed what they told you... :-)
Muktheduck
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Man, the best argument you could come up with for the older generations benefiting the youth is public schooling?

Woof. That's as much an indictment on boomers than anything he posted lol
Change Detection
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AG
Ok, give the money back. Nobody will pay for younger generations and they in turn will not take from the generation preceding them. For those who have contributed into SS, pay them their money back at the average return rate for the years paid in and call it done, and never do something like that again. I would be perfectly fine with that. Sounds like some young persons just don't want to pay SS because someone is getting a check before they do.

Funny that there is a guilt trip being levied on boomer. News for ya, they didn't get a choice in the matter. It was their money and the gov took it. Now pay it back like like it was promised regardless of what some truly entitled younger generation says.
techno-ag
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Rapier108 said:

AgGrad99 said:


Quote:

Both of the two responses above me are focusing the feeling portion on the fact and not the conclusion.

Well, a conclusion is a result of a premise.

If the premise is faulty...


Again, no one argues the system is broke. We understand how the system works. But you cannot simply disappear a generation's money, and think that is ok.

Some people would have no problem screwing every single "boomer" living today out of every penny they have because they see them as the cause of all of their problems.
Ageism is the one bigotry everyone grows out of, if they live long enough.
The left cannot kill the Spirit of Charlie Kirk.
tysker
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schmellba99 said:

tysker said:

Hot take alert:
if you receive welfare from the federal government (most commonly Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid), you shouldn't be permitted to vote in federal elections.

You can receive all the welfare and payments you think you deserve but you don't also receive the power to force others to pay for your lifestyle choices.

SS is absolutely not welfare from the government, and the idea that it is means you are on the low end of the IQ scale.

For that matter, medicare isn't either since if you were to look at your pay stub you'll see a line item on there where the feds have forcibly taken money from you to pay for it.

Government administrated, sponsored, and structural aid is broadly welfare. What definition would you prefer I use?

You're clearly a genius and so very knowledgeable about all such matters.
MemphisAg1
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Zobel said:

That is not how the system works though. It is not an individual retirement account. It is a pay as you go system. The money we really paid was paid out. There's also no cap to the amount you can get back based on what you put in - so clearly the in and out aren't linked.

You keep trying to define this the way you see it, but your argument is flawed.

Don't confuse how it's paid with the benefit owed to people. The benefits are codified in US law. No amount of posturing on an internet message board will change that.

It's also a fact that people drawing a benefit DID pay into the system and expect the benefit when their time comes.

But keep trying to tell people they should forego a benefit they're entitled to by US law and years of contributions. Please write back in a few months and let us know how successful that's been.
 
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