Europe threatens to sell $1.6+ trillion in US Treasuries

5,096 Views | 67 Replies | Last: 17 days ago by Dirt 05
AgBQ-00
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I don't believe we would dissolve NATO. And if Russia were to use nukes they would cease to exist as a people. Not only would they face severe backlash from the western world; China would take the chance to grab as much of Russia as they could.
God loves you so much He'll meet you where you are. He also loves you too much to allow to stay where you are.

We sing Hallelujah! The Lamb has overcome!
Who?mikejones!
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Stmichael said:

Who?mikejones! said:



Since thread monitors will cry on the other thread this not being tactical, I will add it here.

The euros truly believe russia is going after Europe after the Ukrainian war ends. I find the chances of that near 0.

But, if the euros truly believe they are next on the list, what the **** are they waiting on? Go into ukriane and destroy russia now, before they have a chance to rebuild their armies.


Russia's intentions are very clear to a student of history. The Russian defense strategy since the days of Catherine the Great has been to control all land up to the choke points that grant access to the Russian heartland. That includes the Polish Gap, which means Russia would need to control all of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Ukraine, Moldova, part of Romania, and the eastern half of Poland. All but Ukraine and Moldova are NATO members.

So if you take Putin at his word when he says that the collapse of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the modern era, then yeah, Russia is absolutely after eastern Europe. He's bat**** crazy for thinking that ends in any other way than the total annihilation of Russia as a nation and Russians as an ethnicity, but no one has ever described him as a stable and moral person.


Then what the **** is Europe waiting on? Ukraine cannot win this war. How do the euros or Ukraine plan on getting their land back?

Russia isnt just going to give it back because they were asked to. Russia also isnt going to accept any deal less than what it wants, because they cant be forced to at this moment. Nothing on the horizon looks to change that dynamic any time soon either.

Europe is making demands they cant cash. That's the problem with their actions.

Imo, about all left they can do is send actual troops to ukriane and end russia/putin now and it's probably what they should do if they really believe ukriane is just a stepping stone to greater conquest..

Yes, Russia has nukes. If you never call that bluff and continue to yield to their offense threats, then you wont overcome them. Euro and Ukraine has very few cards left to play and none of them are likely to end the war in Ukraine any time soon.
Dungeon Crawler Carl
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Euros threatening to commit suicide.......Jump MF'ers!!!

Aggie Spirit
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European governments are paying the price for decades of weakness, poor decisions and over reliance on the US.
AgGrad99
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Who?mikejones! said:

Since thread monitors will cry on the other thread this not being tactical, I will add it here.

The euros truly believe russia is going after Europe after the Ukrainian war ends. I find the chances of that near 0.

But, if the euros truly believe they are next on the list, what the **** are they waiting on? Go into ukriane and destroy russia now, before they have a chance to rebuild their armies.

This is the most salient point.

IF they truly believe this. What are they doing?

This would be a giant admission of their weakness. If this is truly what you believe, what are you telling Putin???

"Please keep the war going in that corner, because we're not prepared to defend ourselves over in this corner"

Surely they see how ridiculous this sounds, and how weak it makes them look?
AgGrad99
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Quote:

But here's what European leaders don't want to admit: they'd probably suffer worse.

There is an old saying about this. I'm probably butchering it, but this is the gist...


"If you're in debt to someone for a little money, they own you. But if you're in debt to someone for a LOT of money, you own them."

Who?mikejones!
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That's what they're telling trump.
AgGrad99
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Who?mikejones! said:

That's what they're telling trump.

I guess it's what they're telling the whole world.

But Trump isn't the one they're claiming they're afraid of. Putin is.

Seems like it's either an extremely obvious empty threat...or an extremely dumb one.
AlaskanAg99
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AgBQ-00 said:

what is stopping the euros from preparing? absolutely nothing but their own socialism


Call it internal static momentum. They haven't done anything in so long they're now somewhat incapable of advocating change. Why? They like the umbrella of protection the US provides. Multiple Oresidents have been warning all Europe countries this is an issues, its pretty much the only thing all R & D presidents have agreed upon.

But things haven't been static as generation of generation of socialist and greens have continued to grow. And now disastrous policy is being adopted. From energy (no nukes, thermal etc), immigration, trade ... they've all just become too complacent and not adapting to rapid changes in the world.
aTm '99
Muktheduck
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AgBQ-00 said:

So let me get this straight...Trump is trying to broker peace. Ukraine has shown interest in accepting terms and so has Russia (don't trust them but whatever). Euros are pissed that the grift flow will be cut off. So they threaten to cause global economic disaster (which they will suffer worse than anyone). What exactly are they hoping to accomplish here?


What you have to remember is that the people in charge of the EU are globalists who don't give a single **** about the people of Europe. In fact they'd rather Europeans all die off anyways
Ellis Wyatt
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AggieVictor10 said:

If they'd give putin everything he wants there'd be peace

Who is proposing that? Who is going to take back what Putin has already conquered?

Are you volunteering?
Teslag
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Ellis Wyatt said:

AggieVictor10 said:

If they'd give putin everything he wants there'd be peace

Who is proposing that? Who is going to take back what Putin has already conquered?

Are you volunteering?


Putin isn't happy with what he has. He wants more as part of deal. And Trump is ready to give it to him.
MJ20/20
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Ellis Wyatt said:

AggieVictor10 said:

If they'd give putin everything he wants there'd be peace

Who is proposing that? Who is going to take back what Putin has already conquered?

Are you volunteering?

Exactly. Noone is. There isn't a single soverign entity that has the balls to go in and kick Putin's ass. Not one that is willing to go turn his horse drawn carts around and return what he took. Putin is definitely a bully but Europe is his clear cut *****.
Who?mikejones!
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AggieVictor10 said:

If they'd give putin everything he wants there'd be peace


Im fully on Ukraine's side. I want putin dead and russia to remove themselves from all of Ukraine and Crimea.


But.....ukriane is incapable of forcing that to happen. Theres nothing that we can give them to make that happen. Russia is there whether we want them there or not.

Euro and the usa are unwilling to do what it takes to change the equation in this war. That leaves only a couple options

1. Do just enough to buy Ukraine time and hopefully enough time for Putin to die or russia to collapse. I suppose that could happen but the cost, both in real dollars and political capital, is probably not feasible
2. Negotiate a peace. But that requires acquiescing to russian demands that are painful. This must be the way because the Russians appear to be more than happy to continue on than we(trump, his voters or probably the american people in general) are.
3. Escalating the war by putting actual boots on the ground and change the equation.

At this point, you probably dont have to give russia everything it wants, but, neither Ukraine nor the west is in a strong enough position to demand too many things from them.
AlaskanAg99
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MJ20/20 said:

Ellis Wyatt said:

AggieVictor10 said:

If they'd give putin everything he wants there'd be peace

Who is proposing that? Who is going to take back what Putin has already conquered?

Are you volunteering?

Exactly. Noone is. There isn't a single soverign entity that has the balls to go in and kick Putin's ass. Not one that is willing to go turn his horse drawn carts around and return what he took. Putin is definitely a bully but Europe is his clear cut *****.


Agreed. And this isnt a US problem. This is the result of a very weak Europe over decades that have enabled Putin into action. Zero US sons or daughters should be put in harms way. Europeans need to solve the problem They created.
aTm '99
Ellis Wyatt
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Quote:

Exactly. Noone is. There isn't a single soverign entity that has the balls to go in and kick Putin's ass. Not one that is willing to go turn his horse drawn carts around and return what he took. Putin is definitely a bully but Europe is his clear cut *****.

I am ready to see us completely cut off Europe and Ukraine over this. If they want to end the war, they can step in anytime. The money pit needs to stop.
YouBet
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aezmvp said:

Well considering that doing this would almost certainly create a panic in European markets, France is been right on the edge of a huge budget crisis. That might send them over the edge and would take Germany with them since German banks, financial groups and state hold so much of French bank debt. If you take those two out, the EU is a complete house of cards. The only thing holding the EU up for the last two decades has been the diminishing strength of both those states.

If the Europeans did this, the only way NATO survives is through the intervention of enough people in Congress. And even then I think you'd see a huge withdrawal or redeployment of US troops out of hostile EU nations and into friendly ones. The disolution of NATO would also cause significant problems for European economies. Upto and including those economies having to fundamentally strip away some long standing benefits to fund rearmament. Which they are not prepared to do politically or socially.

This is basically a petulant suicide pact by people who through their gross mismanagement of a bureaucratic structure have let the Continent fall so far behind the US and China that they are de facto vassals w/o understanding the fact.

There was actually an article in the WSJ a few days ago about this exact theme. EU leaders behind the scenes realize they are powerless vassals now on the sidelines. So, that's exactly what this is...a petulant suicide pact.
YouBet
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Let's continue to not forget that Mark Rutte was willing to starve and kill his own countrymen via mythological green energy policy before he was kicked out and somehow fell upwards to run NATO.

He's as bad as Putin and it's incredible he's running NATO.
TommyBrady
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Russia can't beat Ukraine but they are going to attack all of Europe instead. Solid line of thinking.
AggiePetro07
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Peter Hopkirk's "The Great Game" provides some fascinating insight into this situation.

This fight between Europe and Russia has been happening in different eras and theaters for centuries.
IIIHorn
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Ukraine & Russia.

The only two countries I can think of that are as corrupt as Mexico.
ABATTBQ11
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AgBQ-00 said:

So let me get this straight...Trump is trying to broker peace. Ukraine has shown interest in accepting terms and so has Russia (don't trust them but whatever). Euros are pissed that the grift flow will be cut off. So they threaten to cause global economic disaster (which they will suffer worse than anyone). What exactly are they hoping to accomplish here?


Not exactly. Ukraine is not interested in accepting the terms they have been given, especially surrendering land and limiting their military strength. They have given a revised proposal, but we don't know exactly what that is yet. Russia has basically given 0 compromise. They are still far from any kind of deal.

Trump is trying to broker a deal. His approach seems to be that any deal is better than no deal, and his historic approach is that every deal can be renegotiated. The Europeans don't like that because they don't want to be back here in a few years after Russia regroups and rearms. As far as they're concerned right now, any security guarantee from is isn't worth the paper it's written on.
torrid
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That's enough money to buy SpaceX.
BQ2017
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What is the LT badge in your name? Never seen that before
IIIHorn
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Letterman
Who?mikejones!
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Its not worth the paper its written on no matter the deal.

So long as putin is the leader of russia, Europe/ukriane will always have a threat next door. You can make it less appealing for Putin to have another invasion, but, i dont have any doubt he'd call the west's bluff again if it is his grand plan to take back eastern Europe/ ukriane in full.

The us could give military guarantees, but, theres absolutely no promise it will fulfill them in some future engagement

The euro could give military guarantees, but theres absolutely no promise it would or even could fulfill them.

But the real question you must answer is why putin would take any deal that allows such concessions to occur.
BQ2017
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Oh that's cool. Thanks for the reply
IIIHorn
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BQ2017 said:

Oh that's cool. Thanks for the reply

You are welcome, Sir.
ABATTBQ11
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TommyBrady said:

Russia can't beat Ukraine but they are going to attack all of Europe instead. Solid line of thinking.


You jest, but there is a lot of logic behind it. War is costly in money and lives, and Europe doesn't want to be directly involved in a full blown war because of that. The threat is enough to influence decision making.

And even if Russia went to war with Europe, now would be the best time. This is probably the least likely we'll ever be to intervene, so they'd potentially only be fighting Europe. Remember, NATO Article 5 only requires support/assistance, not be actual military support and fighting. Europe may also be reluctant to engage in any kind of protracted conflict because that means a lot of dead Europeans and a larger migrant population percentage. They also probably don't want to throw migrants or second generation immigrants into the gifting because then they'll be left with battle hardened and trained North Africans and Middle Easterners coming back.

And Russia doesn't have to roll Europe like we did Germany or Iraq for it to be a win. Anything that disrupts European aid to Ukraine would weaken their ability to resist drone attacks and assaults. If they can occupy the Europeans, they can use the distraction to maybe finally make a breakthrough in Ukraine.

There is also the potential that they invade some smaller Eastern European countries, dig in within an area, and the Western Europeans intervene only to stop their advance and not retake territory because it is too costly. Russia gets land, and the European alliance is ultimately weakened by mistrust.

There are a lot of potential benefits to Russia. The only downside is losing men and material, and they don't seem to care.
nortex97
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The most basic problem is pretty clear; some politicians (or at least one) want the current war to continue. At least, that's my President's take:

Europe faces wide fiscal uncertainty/challenges, with their strongest military/government, France, also facing tremendous budgetary pressure.
Quote:

However, to keep next year's welfare deficit below 20 billion already up from the 17.5 billion originally proposed Lecornu transferred an extra subsidy of at least 4.5 billion from the main budget, which covers everything from education to defense. And it remains unclear where exactly this money will be found, while still meeting the government's promise to reduce France's overall deficit from 5.4 percent of gross domestic product to "below 5 percent" next year.

I think this threat (to my OP) was viewed correctly as very weak, or perhaps just a talking point 'over there.' The EU collectively doesn't want to waste money trying to crash our currency/economy (which oh btw they also are dependent on for many industries to export goods to, to say nothing of tourism etc).
Yukon Cornelius
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Europe is failing to third worlders and yet wants a European war to continue. Wonder who is responsible….
YouBet
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It's a suicide pact as we discussed elsewhere. The EU has zero margin of error with their economy and the rules they have. There is no way they call this in.
Dirt 05
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It's the Rothschild banking playbook. Perpetual war > perpetual debt > perpetual profit.

Russia invaded Ukraine and the near unheard of response was for the west to freeze Russia's international assets. A move that gave notice to future belligerents what could happen if they go to war, it took of the table funds for Russia to fund their war, and it provided a source of capital to fund Ukraine's war and rebuild effort.

At least it was supposed to…. Now the holders of those frozen assets have grown accustomed to the profit earned from them and so only provide Ukraine with a portion of the interest proceeds. There is now some international press reports indicating that they would eventually be unfrozen and returned to Russia - no doubt because they have been offered a sweet cut for their return.

The bankers have no patriotism, no concern for loss of life, nor care for who wins/loses. Their concern is forcing governments to go to them for more debt to fund their war. And, when inevitably one or both sides collapse from all of the repercussions and can not repay the debt it will be a banking crisis that requires the fed to step in and refinance and the cost of the inflation tax to the American taxpayer.
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