Europe threatens to sell $1.6+ trillion in US Treasuries

5,086 Views | 67 Replies | Last: 16 days ago by Dirt 05
nortex97
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Yes, that's the scary headline if Trump brokers a peace deal.
Quote:

Insiders informed the WSJ that European leaders are weighing severe countermeasures in response, calculated to trigger economic turmoil across the United States. The proposed strategy includes liquidating trillions in American government bonds held by European governments.

Quote:

The political fallout could be catastrophic for Trump and the Republicans as the midterm elections loom next year. The EU and the UK, being among the largest holders of US Treasury securities (US debt), wield considerable potential economic leverage.

As of December 2024, the United Kingdom holds an estimated $722.7 billion in US debt.
The European Union member countries collectively hold an estimated $1.62 trillion.

Combined, this amounts to approximately $2.34 trillion, making the EU/UK bloc one of the single largest foreign holders of US debt.

Spoiler alert, media claiming this is a doom loop for the administration probably haven't thought it through/don't understand how it could play out. It's a tad more complicated in reality.
Quote:

But here's what European leaders don't want to admit: they'd probably suffer worse.
The UK's vulnerability got exposed during the 2022 Mini-Budget crisis. UK pension funds use strategies that are wildly sensitive to yield spikes. A lot of these involve US assets or derivatives tied to global rates. When US yields jump, UK Gilt yields follow.

The collateral backing UK pensions loses value. Margin calls hit. To meet them, pensions have to sell assets, usually Gilts, which drives yields higher, triggering more margin calls. Doom loop.

In 2022, the Bank of England had to step in to prevent pension fund insolvency. A US-triggered crash would be orders of magnitude larger. By attacking the US bond market, the UK would be setting off a bomb in its own pension system.

European banks have a similar problem: they're structurally short dollars. They hold massive dollar-denominated assets and fund them with short-term dollar borrowing. US Treasuries are what they use as collateral to get those dollars in the repo market.

If the EU forces banks to sell Treasuries, it strips away the collateral they need to operate.
The result: a massive dollar funding squeeze across Europe. Banks can't roll over their debts. They turn to the ECB for dollars. The ECB can't print dollars. The ECB has to ask the Fed for swap lines.
In the middle of a financial war, Trump says no.

The EU and UK hold about $2.5 trillion in US assets. By selling aggressively, they drive down prices on the very thing they're trying to exit. That crystalizes hundreds of billions in losses for European taxpayers and pensioners.

Bond markets are too complex for me to really comprehend, but I don't think the Euro's are in much better fiscal shape than us, really, and likely wouldn't want to risk this set of possible ramifications. Plus, to the extent our 'allies' in the EU really just want to keep the war going, they need to keep buying US weapons/bombs/missiles for quite some time, which this clearly wouldn't facilitate either.

Rod Dreher had a great piece this weekend about "Euroclericalism and the Trump NSS." Their clericalists really do think they are always the smartest kids in class, imho, and they're often wrong.
SMM48
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Coincides with the timing that we will be buying back US treasuries.
Sims
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That's a convenient and deflecting way of wording, "Trump trade policy is working and we're out of $ liquidity to pay $ denominated debt. We'll sell our seedcorn."
AgBQ-00
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So let me get this straight...Trump is trying to broker peace. Ukraine has shown interest in accepting terms and so has Russia (don't trust them but whatever). Euros are pissed that the grift flow will be cut off. So they threaten to cause global economic disaster (which they will suffer worse than anyone). What exactly are they hoping to accomplish here?
God loves you so much He'll meet you where you are. He also loves you too much to allow to stay where you are.

We sing Hallelujah! The Lamb has overcome!
MRB10
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How corrupt do you have to be to try and spin "stopping a war" into "trumps threatening continental security"?

Jesus f'ing christ
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There is no blue.
There is the state.
And there is you.”

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backintexas2013
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At the same time these same countries are doing business with the "enemy". Some of our warhawks here refuse to admit that Europe still does business with Russia and they just turn a blind eye to it.
Teslag
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AgBQ-00 said:

So let me get this straight...Trump is trying to broker peace. Ukraine has shown interest in accepting terms and so has Russia (don't trust them but whatever). Euros are pissed that the grift flow will be cut off. So they threaten to cause global economic disaster (which they will suffer worse than anyone). What exactly are they hoping to accomplish here?


Europe's concerns have less to do with a Ukrainian "peace" deal than they do with the part of the deal that actually strengthens Russia. Europe doesn't want that, and for good reason. A strong Russia is bad for everyone.
backintexas2013
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Agreed. Maybe Europe should stop doing business with them. Right now Europe looks like hypocrites as do the Warhawks.
LOYAL AG
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Teslag said:

AgBQ-00 said:

So let me get this straight...Trump is trying to broker peace. Ukraine has shown interest in accepting terms and so has Russia (don't trust them but whatever). Euros are pissed that the grift flow will be cut off. So they threaten to cause global economic disaster (which they will suffer worse than anyone). What exactly are they hoping to accomplish here?


Europe's concerns have less to do with a Ukrainian "peace" deal than they do with the part of the deal that actually strengthens Russia. Europe doesn't want that, and for good reason. A strong Russia is bad for everyone.


If that's happening as a result of whatever deal is being put together it's a valid concern. Can you expand on that concern?

Of course what we've seen the past 80 years is Europe wholly unconcerned about a strong Russia as long as daddy was there to protect them so what's changed? As long as we keep providing for their defense why do they care now? Whats changed is we've forced the issue with regard to defending themselves against a hostile nation to their east.

The EU somehow isn't capable of providing for its own defense against Russia, it's been a major sticking point for US/EU relations since Trump came to power. There's 500m people in the EU and 120m in Russia yet somehow the EU can't defend themselves without our help. I don't know what in the potential deal makes Russia stronger but I do know the EU is incompetent in defending itself from a nation it relies on for the key component of modern life, energy. If you're dependent on someone you have to defend yourself from that's about as stupid a place as you can be in.
Teslag
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backintexas2013 said:

Agreed. Maybe Europe should stop doing business with them. Right now Europe looks like hypocrites as do the Warhawks.


The only Warhawk is Russia. Everyone else wants peace.
SMM48
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First. It's a MSN article.

Second. The media has no idea how big the global bond market is.

Third. We saw what happened with Japan carry trade scare earlier this year. That was unexpected.

10th. Calamity doesn't ensue if you announce your intention.

Msn is casting fudd
Who?mikejones!
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Europe is in chaos right now.

Instead of threatening the usa, they should come up with a peace plan all sides will agree to. Absent that, they are just don Quixote swinging at windmills and showing in impotent they are.
nortex97
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FWIW, my take is just that the Euro's will claim they were accommodated. The core of the EU still runs thru Berlin and the German economy, which is really on the brink right now amid some massive de-industrialization they have chosen by policy to pursue (greens running energy policy as part of the Merz coalition).

They can't afford to toss a hand grenade onto their fiscal/liquidity situation in the hope it hurts ours, net.


Responding to another poster, LoyalAg, the EU remains deeply unserious about re-arming, despite some prevalent headlines to the contrary. Actual Germans aren't even interested in defending Germany, let alone a broader European notion. They aren't going to pay much more in taxes to do so, imho.
Quote:

The political context also is a problem for those who believe Germany is going to become great again. The government, like Austria's, is a ramshackle coalition of parties that do not like each other (the centre-right and the centre-left), who only formed a government in order to ensure that the second-place populist-right AfD (now polling first place AfD) was kept out of power. Even with that, they barely have a majority: Only 12 seats keep them in power. Out of 630 total seats in the Bundestag, this is a tiny majority. And already, it has run into problems, only passing a parliamentary bill with the abstention of The Left, a radical left party, over the dissension of conservative lawmakers who believed that Germany's pension plans are unsustainable.

Some establishmentarians though notably, not Merz have floated banningthe AfD to solve the crisis. But AfD voters are some of the more patriotic Germans; banning their votes likely will weaken any desire to get them to pick up a rifle in defence of the homeland.

Which, they are. Germany likely does not have the money to pay for its pensions and an increased military budget without either raising taxes significantly or without cutting services the latter of which would engender even larger protests.

A shaky political system, unpatriotic youth, a burgeoning and non-assimilating migrant population, and funding problems. This is not an impossible situation to solve. But it will take more than just brilliant policy-making. It will also take a leader who can inspire Germans to be patriotic again. But can such a leader exist in modern Germany?

We may soon find out.

More at the link…
Who?mikejones!
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Since thread monitors will cry on the other thread this not being tactical, I will add it here.

The euros truly believe russia is going after Europe after the Ukrainian war ends. I find the chances of that near 0.

But, if the euros truly believe they are next on the list, what the **** are they waiting on? Go into ukriane and destroy russia now, before they have a chance to rebuild their armies.
PeekingDuck
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Europe's leadership is surprisingly stupid lately. I guess I just thought that they'd come to their senses at some point, but it just doesn't seem to ever happen.
doubledog
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As my pappy said "You mess with the bull you will get the horns."
Logos Stick
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Who?mikejones! said:



Since thread monitors will cry on the other thread this not being tactical, I will add it here.

The euros truly believe russia is going after Europe after the Ukrainian war ends. I find the chances of that near 0.

But, if the euros truly believe they are next on the list, what the **** are they waiting on? Go into ukriane and destroy russia now, before they have a chance to rebuild their armies.




LOL, they can't even take over Ukraine. Guy is a moron or a liar.
Sims
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Who?mikejones! said:

Europe is in chaos right now.

Instead of threatening the usa, they should come up with a peace plan all sides will agree to. Absent that, they are just don Quixote swinging at windmills and showing in impotent they are.

The EU passed an act to mandate changes to its supply chain security with respect to critical raw materials and rare earths.

By 2030, it mandated that at least 10% be sourced from an EU country. You can infer easily that it's under 10% now. In a world where the US is focused more on the western hemishphere than the EU, they're odd man out from a commerce standpoint. NYC has supplanted London as the primary financial hub of the world, The EU's green policies have their manufacturing and durable goods industries dead and not coming back any time soon. The green policies have resulted a level of energy dependence that makes them a vassal to whoever has pipelines that can import natural gas because they refuse to produce it themselves.

They're the literal example of what happens when you run out of other peoples' money to spend.

You're right, they need to pick a coattail and get on it, their independence and leverage is an illusion at this point.
SpreadsheetAg
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Is there jus ad bellum for economic warfare?
Martels Hammer
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A lot of uncomfortable facts for Europe and the US

Stmichael
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Who?mikejones! said:



Since thread monitors will cry on the other thread this not being tactical, I will add it here.

The euros truly believe russia is going after Europe after the Ukrainian war ends. I find the chances of that near 0.

But, if the euros truly believe they are next on the list, what the **** are they waiting on? Go into ukriane and destroy russia now, before they have a chance to rebuild their armies.


Russia's intentions are very clear to a student of history. The Russian defense strategy since the days of Catherine the Great has been to control all land up to the choke points that grant access to the Russian heartland. That includes the Polish Gap, which means Russia would need to control all of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Ukraine, Moldova, part of Romania, and the eastern half of Poland. All but Ukraine and Moldova are NATO members.

So if you take Putin at his word when he says that the collapse of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the modern era, then yeah, Russia is absolutely after eastern Europe. He's bat**** crazy for thinking that ends in any other way than the total annihilation of Russia as a nation and Russians as an ethnicity, but no one has ever described him as a stable and moral person.
SpreadsheetAg
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Martels Hammer said:

A lot of uncomfortable facts for Europe and the US



Care to give a synopsis for those of us who can't watch 2 hrs of video? I am interested
Ellis Wyatt
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I am all for it.

And we can remove all our defense assets from the countries that participate and spend the net savings on huge bags of popcorn.
AgBQ-00
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wanting to do something and having the ability to do something are 2 totally different things
God loves you so much He'll meet you where you are. He also loves you too much to allow to stay where you are.

We sing Hallelujah! The Lamb has overcome!
Martels Hammer
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It's been a while since I've listened to his talk, but from memory.

The United States has a plan that is not related to who sits in the president's office. We fight wars that we want to fight with no input from our allies. We see neutral countries as more dangerous than actual enemies. But mostly Europe is a giant cluster with no coherent strategy or goal that has been for three decades.


He will give you the location of documents that You can look up online to back up his assertions. On things like promises not to enlarge NATO past a certain point etc.. And how even though Russia is evil what else are they supposed to do after being lied to for decades.


He goes pretty hard at the euros for being incompetent boobs with no backbone.
Teslag
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AgBQ-00 said:

wanting to do something and having the ability to do something are 2 totally different things


If you know someone's intent do you think it's wise to wait for them to have the ability before you take precaution and make preparations?
AgBQ-00
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what is stopping the euros from preparing? absolutely nothing but their own socialism
God loves you so much He'll meet you where you are. He also loves you too much to allow to stay where you are.

We sing Hallelujah! The Lamb has overcome!
LOYAL AG
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nortex97 said:

FWIW, my take is just that the Euro's will claim they were accommodated. The core of the EU still runs thru Berlin and the German economy, which is really on the brink right now amid some massive de-industrialization they have chosen by policy to pursue (greens running energy policy as part of the Merz coalition).

They can't afford to toss a hand grenade onto their fiscal/liquidity situation in the hope it hurts ours, net.


Responding to another poster, LoyalAg, the EU remains deeply unserious about re-arming, despite some prevalent headlines to the contrary. Actual Germans aren't even interested in defending Germany, let alone a broader European notion. They aren't going to pay much more in taxes to do so, imho.
Quote:

The political context also is a problem for those who believe Germany is going to become great again. The government, like Austria's, is a ramshackle coalition of parties that do not like each other (the centre-right and the centre-left), who only formed a government in order to ensure that the second-place populist-right AfD (now polling first place AfD) was kept out of power. Even with that, they barely have a majority: Only 12 seats keep them in power. Out of 630 total seats in the Bundestag, this is a tiny majority. And already, it has run into problems, only passing a parliamentary bill with the abstention of The Left, a radical left party, over the dissension of conservative lawmakers who believed that Germany's pension plans are unsustainable.

Some establishmentarians though notably, not Merz have floated banningthe AfD to solve the crisis. But AfD voters are some of the more patriotic Germans; banning their votes likely will weaken any desire to get them to pick up a rifle in defence of the homeland.

Which, they are. Germany likely does not have the money to pay for its pensions and an increased military budget without either raising taxes significantly or without cutting services the latter of which would engender even larger protests.

A shaky political system, unpatriotic youth, a burgeoning and non-assimilating migrant population, and funding problems. This is not an impossible situation to solve. But it will take more than just brilliant policy-making. It will also take a leader who can inspire Germans to be patriotic again. But can such a leader exist in modern Germany?

We may soon find out.

More at the link…


That's interesting, thank you. So the basic problem appears to be that the politicians who need people willing to fight and die for their country are supported by a segment of the population unwilling to do so. Meanwhile the segment willing to fight and die is hated by those same politicians. Sounds like Germany is run by Democrats.
IIIHorn
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Ellis Wyatt said:

I am all for it.

And we can remove all our defense assets from the countries that participate and spend the net savings on huge bags of popcorn.


This will require copious Colonels.
Teslag
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AgBQ-00 said:

what is stopping the euros from preparing? absolutely nothing but their own socialism


They euros are stepping up their defense spending. It was always going to be the end result. One negative is we will lose influence over their decision making. At this point they probably realize they can just assist Ukraine for 3 years until trump is gone anyway.
aezmvp
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Well considering that doing this would almost certainly create a panic in European markets, France is been right on the edge of a huge budget crisis. That might send them over the edge and would take Germany with them since German banks, financial groups and state hold so much of French bank debt. If you take those two out, the EU is a complete house of cards. The only thing holding the EU up for the last two decades has been the diminishing strength of both those states.

If the Europeans did this, the only way NATO survives is through the intervention of enough people in Congress. And even then I think you'd see a huge withdrawal or redeployment of US troops out of hostile EU nations and into friendly ones. The disolution of NATO would also cause significant problems for European economies. Upto and including those economies having to fundamentally strip away some long standing benefits to fund rearmament. Which they are not prepared to do politically or socially.

This is basically a petulant suicide pact by people who through their gross mismanagement of a bureaucratic structure have let the Continent fall so far behind the US and China that they are de facto vassals w/o understanding the fact.
Stmichael
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AgBQ-00 said:

wanting to do something and having the ability to do something are 2 totally different things


That's true, but there's 2 very dangerous things at play here: NATO and nukes. Russia invading Ukraine doesn't activate Article 5 of NATO, but them moving on Poland absolutely would. In a conventional fight, that's one the Russians would lose so hard they would be erased from history. But they also have nukes, and they're crazy enough to play chicken with global nuclear destruction. They're betting that we'll blink first and dissolve NATO to avoid a nuclear exchange.
AgBQ-00
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I would much rather the euros secure themselves and not use us as their defacto standing army
God loves you so much He'll meet you where you are. He also loves you too much to allow to stay where you are.

We sing Hallelujah! The Lamb has overcome!
Ellis Wyatt
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Quote:

This is basically a petulant suicide pact by people who through their gross mismanagement of a bureaucratic structure have let the Continent fall so far behind the US and China that they are de facto vassals w/o understanding the fact.

Fat and lazy.

They brag about their socialism, which only "succeeds" because America is subsidizing it. Europe needed us to bail them out with our military in WWI and WWII, but they could at least fight side by side with our troops.

They're a bunch of toy soldiers now compared to then. I don't believe Europe could even muster the strength alone to carry out a "police action" today. They are utterly hapless. A continent that has T-Rex arms and can't even feed itself anymore. And they're snobs about it.
AggieVictor10
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If they'd give putin everything he wants there'd be peace
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