Burdizzo said:

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One procedure, five bills, several of which were from the same party.

I work in the consulting field, and we would never treat our clients this way.

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They aren't doing separate bills for fun or to be difficult. They likely just don't have any other choice. "Billing reasons" can mean the physicians have separate tax IDs, and maybe even different reimbursement contracts with your payer. Add in facility charges, with more tax IDs and different contracts, and it's not unusual to get lots of separate bills from the same health system. Moreover, it's also not unusual for different physician groups within the same health system to use different EMR and/or office management systems. If different specialists are involved (especially ophthalmology and orthopedics), this is even more likely to be the case. The name on the building (e.g. Baylor, Christus, Ochsner) gives the illusion that you're dealing with a single corporate entity. You're not.

Most people do not have a clue as to their insurance. We end up getting more than anticipated from the insurance payment at times and the patient will be issued a refund. Amazing how often these checks do not get cashed. I don't even think they open it. I guess that is what "ignoring your bills like the illegals" gets you.

docb said:

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Aggie95 said:

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Long story short…daughter was involved in a car accident 2 years ago and was not at fault. She had some minor neck pain and headache so we went to the hospital as a precaution.
Days later we find out the driver had given expired auto insurance (State Farm). We later get a bill that I sent my auto insurance, also State Farm to cover the $900 hospital bill. Turns out they never did and they are coming after us daily. Do they do this to illegals that inundate hospitals?

Maybe I'm in the wrong and should just pay it, but since this was part of the accident, I don't feel responsible to pay out of my pocket.

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I think you should pay the hospital and then fight your insurance company. Why should the hospital do this stuff for free?

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Because it's easier and they are part of the problem.

im all for paying what I owe. Can you please tell me what I will owe before service? No, screw you then.

How exactly do you expect an ER to do that? Should the doctor say "I think you need x test, it is $49.99" for every thing they do?

Honestly, we really can't tell you what it's gonna cost when you go to the hospital. We have no idea what's going to happen. I don't work in a hospital anymore thank God because it's one of the most thankless jobs a doctor can have.

You came in for your stomach pain? Great sometimes it's gas. Sometimes it requires multiple exploratory laparotomies those things are gonna cost a different amount. But sometimes telling the difference between those two is ****ing expensive and hard to do.

MRB10 said:

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The idea that collections starts dinging your credit as soon as they buy the debt is bogus. I've forced multiple medical providers to collections if their billing is predatory or was not properly disclosed prior to care being received.

Anyone can go to https://www.fairhealthconsumer.org/ and input their treatment/billing codes to get a second opinion on whether the amounts being billed are reasonable/excessive.

I have used this data to support more billing disputes than I can remember and have never once had my credit impacted.

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Medical Billing is not allowed by law to hit your credit score.

Seamaster said:

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Aggie95 said:

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P.H. Dexippus said:

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Why not call back State Farm?

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I dropped them already

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That doesn't absolve them as the claim occurred when they had the coverage.

It would depend on exactly what coverage you had at the time and what your deductibles were but it's worth a shot.

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1000% this. I make claims for customers on roofs for storms that happened last year even though they don't have that carrier anymore. They were the carrier when it occurred. They are responsible. State Farm owes for the bill, OP, not you.

I think they have a choice. They just need a different business model. I work on projects all the time where I am a sole source provider leading a team of professionals, some whom work for my company and others who are subcontractors with different Tax-ID. We invoice our clients once a month, and they only see one invoice . That extra management adds overhead, but if I shotgunned invoices like that to my clients they would go find someone else. They certainly don't seemed to be billing separately to keep costs down

agracer said:

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MRB10 said:

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The idea that collections starts dinging your credit as soon as they buy the debt is bogus. I've forced multiple medical providers to collections if their billing is predatory or was not properly disclosed prior to care being received.

Anyone can go to https://www.fairhealthconsumer.org/ and input their treatment/billing codes to get a second opinion on whether the amounts being billed are reasonable/excessive.

I have used this data to support more billing disputes than I can remember and have never once had my credit impacted.

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Medical Billing is not allowed by law to hit your credit score.

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AI Overview



Yes, unpaid medical debt can hurt your credit, but recent rules make it harder for it to appear: bills under $500, paid debts, and debts less than a year old are generally excluded from credit reports, but large, older, unpaid collections can still negatively impact your score by damaging payment history, though some scoring models like VantageScore ignore them
.
When Medical Debt Can Hurt Your Credit

• Over $500: The debt must have an original balance of more than $500 to be reported.
• Unpaid for Over a Year: Major bureaus wait at least 365 days (a year) before adding it to your report.
• Sent to Collections: The provider must send the debt to a collection agency.

Protections & Nuances

• Paid Debt Removed: Paid medical collection accounts are now automatically removed from your credit report.
• Under $500 Ignored: Debts under this threshold, even if unpaid, don't affect your score.
• Scoring Model Differences: FICO still factors in medical debt but gives it less weight, while VantageScore models ignore it.
• State Laws: Some states offer extra protections, limiting reporting.

What to Do

• Pay Promptly: Pay bills quickly to avoid collections.
• Negotiate: Set up payment plans with providers.
• Monitor Credit: Check your reports for errors and unpaid medical collect

Do you wish to elaborate?

Burdizzo said:

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I think they have a choice. They just need a different business model. I work on projects all the time where I am a sole source provider leading a team of professionals, some whom work for my company and others who are subcontractors with different Tax-ID. We invoice our clients once a month, and they only see one invoice . That extra management adds overhead, but if I shotgunned invoices like that to my clients they would go find someone else. They certainly don't seemed to be billing separately to keep costs down

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Shrugs. I'm not knowledgeable about the billing challenges in your industry, and so I would defer to your opinion on why those things happen a certain way in your industry.

agracer said:

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docb said:

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Aggie95 said:

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Long story short…daughter was involved in a car accident 2 years ago and was not at fault. She had some minor neck pain and headache so we went to the hospital as a precaution.
Days later we find out the driver had given expired auto insurance (State Farm). We later get a bill that I sent my auto insurance, also State Farm to cover the $900 hospital bill. Turns out they never did and they are coming after us daily. Do they do this to illegals that inundate hospitals?

Maybe I'm in the wrong and should just pay it, but since this was part of the accident, I don't feel responsible to pay out of my pocket.

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I think you should pay the hospital and then fight your insurance company. Why should the hospital do this stuff for free?

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Because it's easier and they are part of the problem.

im all for paying what I owe. Can you please tell me what I will owe before service? No, screw you then.

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Yea let's call your insurance company in the middle of the night for someone that might have a brain bleed and make them pay their part before we do something. It doesn't work that way.

G Martin 87 said:

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Burdizzo said:

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I think they have a choice. They just need a different business model. I work on projects all the time where I am a sole source provider leading a team of professionals, some whom work for my company and others who are subcontractors with different Tax-ID. We invoice our clients once a month, and they only see one invoice . That extra management adds overhead, but if I shotgunned invoices like that to my clients they would go find someone else. They certainly don't seemed to be billing separately to keep costs down

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Shrugs. I'm not knowledgeable about the billing challenges in your industry, and so I would defer to your opinion on why those things happen a certain way in your industry.

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Not disputing anything you said. My gripe usually centers on how our use of insurance distorts a market.

Phil Gramm used to say, "If I bought groceries they way I buy healthcare, I would eat differently, and so would my dog."

Burdizzo said:

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G Martin 87 said:

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Burdizzo said:

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I think they have a choice. They just need a different business model. I work on projects all the time where I am a sole source provider leading a team of professionals, some whom work for my company and others who are subcontractors with different Tax-ID. We invoice our clients once a month, and they only see one invoice . That extra management adds overhead, but if I shotgunned invoices like that to my clients they would go find someone else. They certainly don't seemed to be billing separately to keep costs down

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Shrugs. I'm not knowledgeable about the billing challenges in your industry, and so I would defer to your opinion on why those things happen a certain way in your industry.

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Not disputing anything you said. My gripe usually centers on how our use of insurance distorts a market.

Phil Gramm used to say, "If I bought groceries they way I buy healthcare, I would eat differently, and so would my dog."

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If you had groceries and you went to the checkout without any money then you wouldn't get groceries. How many people do you think would pay if you let them walk away and just sent them a grocery bill?

docb said:

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Burdizzo said:

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G Martin 87 said:

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Burdizzo said:

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I think they have a choice. They just need a different business model. I work on projects all the time where I am a sole source provider leading a team of professionals, some whom work for my company and others who are subcontractors with different Tax-ID. We invoice our clients once a month, and they only see one invoice . That extra management adds overhead, but if I shotgunned invoices like that to my clients they would go find someone else. They certainly don't seemed to be billing separately to keep costs down

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Shrugs. I'm not knowledgeable about the billing challenges in your industry, and so I would defer to your opinion on why those things happen a certain way in your industry.

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Not disputing anything you said. My gripe usually centers on how our use of insurance distorts a market.

Phil Gramm used to say, "If I bought groceries they way I buy healthcare, I would eat differently, and so would my dog."

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If you had groceries and you went to the checkout without any money then you wouldn't get groceries. How many people do you think would pay if you let them walk away and just sent them a grocery bill?

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If someone else was paying my grocery bills, and I hardly ever looked at the cost when I got steak right away for every previous meal, I would become accustomed to filet mignon every time I sat down.

Again, the way we use insurance has distorted the economy and created unrealistic expectations of getting healthcare.

Burdizzo said:

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docb said:

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Burdizzo said:

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G Martin 87 said:

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Burdizzo said:

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I think they have a choice. They just need a different business model. I work on projects all the time where I am a sole source provider leading a team of professionals, some whom work for my company and others who are subcontractors with different Tax-ID. We invoice our clients once a month, and they only see one invoice . That extra management adds overhead, but if I shotgunned invoices like that to my clients they would go find someone else. They certainly don't seemed to be billing separately to keep costs down

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Shrugs. I'm not knowledgeable about the billing challenges in your industry, and so I would defer to your opinion on why those things happen a certain way in your industry.

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Not disputing anything you said. My gripe usually centers on how our use of insurance distorts a market.

Phil Gramm used to say, "If I bought groceries they way I buy healthcare, I would eat differently, and so would my dog."

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If you had groceries and you went to the checkout without any money then you wouldn't get groceries. How many people do you think would pay if you let them walk away and just sent them a grocery bill?

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If someone else was paying my grocery bills, and I hardly ever looked at the cost when I got steak right away for every previous meal, I would become accustomed to filet mignon every time I sat down.

Again, the way we use insurance has distorted the economy and created unrealistic expectations of getting healthcare.

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Well I do agree that something should be done about the insurance costs. It keeps going up and up every year. Owning a business and paying 75% of my employees insurance is getting harder to do every year.

Burdizzo said:

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G Martin 87 said:

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Burdizzo said:

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I think they have a choice. They just need a different business model. I work on projects all the time where I am a sole source provider leading a team of professionals, some whom work for my company and others who are subcontractors with different Tax-ID. We invoice our clients once a month, and they only see one invoice . That extra management adds overhead, but if I shotgunned invoices like that to my clients they would go find someone else. They certainly don't seemed to be billing separately to keep costs down

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Shrugs. I'm not knowledgeable about the billing challenges in your industry, and so I would defer to your opinion on why those things happen a certain way in your industry.

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Not disputing anything you said. My gripe usually centers on how our use of insurance distorts a market.

Phil Gramm used to say, "If I bought groceries they way I buy healthcare, I would eat differently, and so would my dog."

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And Phil Gramm wasn't wrong. But Phil Gramm didn't have a clue why healthcare administration and reimbursement is structured the way it is, what led to it being that way, or what the inherent barriers are to devising a better business model, as you put it. Insurance is only one factor of many that distorts the market and increases the hassle for everyone. That's a very deep and dark rabbit hole, guarded by a vast army of stakeholders who benefit monetarily from having a complicated delivery system. Those stakeholders include providers, consultants, attorneys, policymakers, software developers, medical supply manufacturers, the AMA, accrediting bodies, state boards of insurance, blah, blah, etc, etc. There is a lot of money to be made operating in the crevices of the US healthcare system.

Anyway, yes, patients want easy-to-understand, predictable, accurate, combined billing that makes sense. Absolutely a worthy goal. What I'm trying to say is that the reason it can't happen has nothing to do with lazy or mistake-prone provider staff.

EFR said:

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How exactly do you expect an ER to do that? Should the doctor say "I think you need x test, it is $49.99" for every thing they do?

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You know what I mean.

call any surgical center or health center and ask for a cost for any procedure (like a colonoscopy or MRI, or X-ray) and they flat out won't tell you. The first question is "who is your insurance " and even then they get to wrong.

Medical services in the US are the only thing you buy without knowing the cost first. It's ridiculous.

That's a change from what I recall many years ago.

And reading something other than AI bull****, it's not that simple.

docb said:

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agracer said:

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docb said:

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Aggie95 said:

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Long story short…daughter was involved in a car accident 2 years ago and was not at fault. She had some minor neck pain and headache so we went to the hospital as a precaution.
Days later we find out the driver had given expired auto insurance (State Farm). We later get a bill that I sent my auto insurance, also State Farm to cover the $900 hospital bill. Turns out they never did and they are coming after us daily. Do they do this to illegals that inundate hospitals?

Maybe I'm in the wrong and should just pay it, but since this was part of the accident, I don't feel responsible to pay out of my pocket.

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I think you should pay the hospital and then fight your insurance company. Why should the hospital do this stuff for free?

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Because it's easier and they are part of the problem.

im all for paying what I owe. Can you please tell me what I will owe before service? No, screw you then.

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Yea let's call your insurance company in the middle of the night for someone that might have a brain bleed and make them pay their part before we do something. It doesn't work that way.

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The Point
^
^
^
^
^
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^
^
You

also, thanks for proving my point.

the insurance company should have zero say in any of my medical decisions.

agracer said:

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docb said:

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agracer said:

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docb said:

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Aggie95 said:

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Long story short…daughter was involved in a car accident 2 years ago and was not at fault. She had some minor neck pain and headache so we went to the hospital as a precaution.
Days later we find out the driver had given expired auto insurance (State Farm). We later get a bill that I sent my auto insurance, also State Farm to cover the $900 hospital bill. Turns out they never did and they are coming after us daily. Do they do this to illegals that inundate hospitals?

Maybe I'm in the wrong and should just pay it, but since this was part of the accident, I don't feel responsible to pay out of my pocket.

---

I think you should pay the hospital and then fight your insurance company. Why should the hospital do this stuff for free?

---

Because it's easier and they are part of the problem.

im all for paying what I owe. Can you please tell me what I will owe before service? No, screw you then.

---

Yea let's call your insurance company in the middle of the night for someone that might have a brain bleed and make them pay their part before we do something. It doesn't work that way.

---

The Point
^
^
^
^
^
^
^
^
^
^
You

also, thanks for proving my point.

the insurance company should have zero say in any of my medical decisions.

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If you're wanting them to foot the bill you don't have a choice.

Aggie95 said:

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Dawnguard said:

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just to be clear:

you're trying to submit a claim on an expired policy? 'cause state farm will just ignore you and say they have no ownership.

So then, once finding out the other insurance isn't paying, you submit to your claim to your own insurance company. There's a whole department called subrogation that just works with getting your money back. If they recover, you get your money back and potentially remove the bad mark from the driving record.

Hopefully this will be claimed under uninsured or under insured motorist (if you paid for that). The insurance company will then use their own resources to get their money back from the at fault party.

But let's say you didn't have uninsured motorist because you fail to realize how many people don't have insurance? Well - Texas requires auto insurance to have something called "personal injury protection". The state mandated amount is $2,500 - available for every claim. That should also be available to you, and they can attempt to reclaim it from the at fault side. If you turned down PIP, you signed something saying that you understand that the law requires it, but you didn't want it anyway.

If all 3 of these insurance claims didn't go through, then just offer to pay, because otherwise it'll go to collections where they'll try really hard since they're making pennies on the dollar.

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Not 100% clear what you are asking...also, this happened in GA. The claim and accident happened while I had a State Farm policy. The at fault driver gave the cop a policy number that turned out to be expired, so when they totaled my daughters car, it was filed under my uninsured motorist. The hospital bill came up weeks later. I kept asking State Farm to handle it and fight it, but apparently they chose not too or something. I dropped them a few months later...probably a year after the accident.
It is in collections now, so I probably can't negotiate with the hospital at this point.

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If you asked State Farm to handle it you should have a claim number from back then. Did the adjuster provide an explanation as to why they haven't paid this out?