Backyard Gator said:

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Both baseball and hockey have an etiquette to them, a set of unwritten rules that are enforced by opposing players on both sides. In hockey, if you directly target a star player on a team with the intent to injure him, there are designated goons on the team, enforcers, who will knock your ass out.

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So why can't this apply in NBA and football? Someone tries to hurt Marcel Reed, or pushes his helmet into the ground after tackle, we should send some ass kicking 3rd string goons out to enact justice against the other team right?

Still trying to understand the difference.

For the record, I am far right, and what much of society would call a "racist", although I prefer "realist"...but yall are dancing like a mofo lol.

"You see,in hockey, it's organized...if someone messes with your teammate, you send goons out there literally only to violently assault a member(s) of the other team, so it's totally ethical and legit"

HA

Again, it is probably n ot racial, but tell me what it is. just "fighting is traditional and part of the sport in NHL and MLB" doesn't cut it for me. Only getting spicy bc yall are acting like I'm some sort of dumbass for wondering why it's fine to send violent goons out onto the ice in Hockey if a teamate is hurt or disrespected, but this principle doesn't carry over to the NBA or football. Can we agree it's impressive how few fights we actually see in these sports, given how physical they are...and the demographics?

Backyard Gator said:

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The only weak connection between baseball brawls and football brawls is you can say it is a clash between pride culture in both instances, but that has nothing to do with race.

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My point is that we would never see this type of thread about baseball fights, which have been pretty routine across time. Why is that? I am open to race not being a factor...I like to believe it is not. Just looking for a coherent theory or explanation.

And one of the examples is a complete reach...hair pulled out from a tackle. I remember Troy Polamalu getting flung around by his hair once...you have always been able to tackle by the hair in football.

Hopefully we can all agree that the NCAA and NFL (or someone) is doing SOMETHING right because you would expect a bunch of amped up young black males (many with no fathers and from rough upbringings) in hostile/violent sports to lose their cool and fight WAY more.

El Gallo Blanco said:

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AGinHI said:

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El Gallo Blanco said:

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This is the only time you will ever find me being a little "race baity". It is kind of funny that fights are considered almost traditional in some of the predominantly white sports but super taboo and frowned upon in a few predominantly black sports.

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Is that true? What "white" sports have traditional fighting? I imagine you're thinking of hockey. But how are hockey fights different from other sports? Basically, is there something inherently different in the sports themselves? Besides hockey what other "white" sports are you referring to? What else can it be?


95-year-old Thomas Sowell has often commented about the culture change in professional sports altogether:

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When you see old films of Joe Louis or Rocky Marciano, you see adults acting like adults-- indeed, like gentlemen.

There was none of this making faces at an opponent before the fight or loudly boasting afterwards, much less taunting during the contest. In other words, you didn't have to act like a lout in order to be a boxer.

When Joe DiMaggio hit a ball that was caught up against the 415-foot sign in Yankee Stadium by a Dodger outfielder, at a crucial point during the 1947 World Series, DiMaggio briefly kicked the dirt in frustration while running the bases.

That was as close to an emotional outburst that DiMaggio ever came. That picture has been shown innumerable times, precisely because it was so exceptional for DiMaggio to go even that far.

Like so much that went wrong in American society, the new style of loutish self-dramatization began in the 1960s. When Muhammad Ali became heavyweight champion in 1964, it marked the end of the era when boxers simply did their job, collected their money and went home, usually after a few brief words.

Over the years, football players began carrying on with elaborate celebrations after every touchdown. Baseball teams developed pre-game rituals and post-game celebrations.

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Violent brawls have been relatively routine in NHL and MLB for many years. Although less frequent in mlb now it seems. But it's noteworthy and "troubling" when it happens in basketball and football. No one was like "the world is going to sh**" back in the 70's and 80's when dugouts cleared numerous times per season. In hockey they straight up fist fight all the time and it's virtually a part of the sport.

Not saying it's racial, but curious as to why it's more socially accepted in some of the major sports over others. Given the nature of football, you'd expect huge brawls to happen every game.

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You are the one who brought race into this thread. Nobody mentioned it prior to your comments

El Gallo Blanco said:

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Backyard Gator said:

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Both baseball and hockey have an etiquette to them, a set of unwritten rules that are enforced by opposing players on both sides. In hockey, if you directly target a star player on a team with the intent to injure him, there are designated goons on the team, enforcers, who will knock your ass out.

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So why can't this apply in NBA and football? Someone tries to hurt Marcel Reed, or pushes his helmet into the ground after tackle, we should send some ass kicking 3rd string goons out to enact justice against the other team right?

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Because if someone deliberately tried to hurt Marcel, they'd have to deal with five very large, very strong, very violent 300 lb dudes all targeting them on the very next play.

Here is a play from back in 2008, so 17 years ago. OU is playing Washington. DeMarcus Granger hits the right guard and runs over him after the whistle. There was a false start, so his personal foul was offset. The very next play, both guards and the center all target Granger, and mete out their own form of justice. He is triple-teamed, buried, and they broke his foot. He was out for two games.



This was for taking a cheap shot at a lineman. If you go after the QB, all five guys are coming after you. This is to say nothing of retaliation; if you take out one team's star QB, they'll take out your starting QB, and it becomes a ridiculous war of attrition.

ETA: I want to say either DC Mike Stoops or DL coach Todd Grantham at the time basically said it was all Granger's fault in the postgame media. He knows the rules, he knew what would happen if he took a cheap shot. The incident stuck out to me because the coach was so nonchalant about a starter being injured, like well, he did this to himself.

There are enforcers in basketball. They're usually the power forward or post players. Rick Mahorn and Charles Barkley were both enforcers for the 76ers, and Dennis Rodman and Horace Grant famously kept people from messing with Jordan.

El Gallo Blanco said:

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Backyard Gator said:

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Both baseball and hockey have an etiquette to them, a set of unwritten rules that are enforced by opposing players on both sides. In hockey, if you directly target a star player on a team with the intent to injure him, there are designated goons on the team, enforcers, who will knock your ass out.

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So why can't this apply in NBA and football? Someone tries to hurt Marcel Reed, or pushes his helmet into the ground after tackle, we should send some ass kicking 3rd string goons out to enact justice against the other team right?

Still trying to understand the difference.

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Wasn't Kurt Rambis of the Lakers considered an "enforcer?" Someone who would purposely give up a few fouls every game to send a message?

As I said earlier, the biggest reason fighting is allowed in hockey is that physical brutality is part of the game, and helmets weren't really mandatory for all players until the mid-2000s.. So you have a lot of guys hitting each other, sometimes with sticks, or playing "elbows up." Tempers flared and players would square off.

It was a Canadian cultural thing. Plus, letting someone retaliate by fighting was seen as a way to 1) blow off steam and allow a cool down period 2) protect players by ensuring that overly aggressive play would be punished.

Physical play isn't really allowed in baseball or the NBA, and contact is penalized. So it reduces the pressure.

Football is physical but again, players stop every 10 seconds and return to their huddles, so things cool off. Plus, wearing helmets tends to discourage players from throwing punches.

Baseball fights actually received a lot more coverage in media, I remember Sports Illustrated doing an "Take me out to the brawl game" article years ago because there were so many bench-clearing brawls. They were speculating on possible reasons at the time.

Now we know it was most likely a combination of steroid use and amphetamine use amping up emotions, although they didn't address either possibilities in the article.

The sports with fighting issue in the past upped the penalty for them and/or sort of ritualized them so they're not very disruptive. Seems to me they all make the news, regardless of race, or if pro/college. I don't see that much of a difference in how they get covered to be honest. Frowned upon but some buys will be boys as well, when they're highly emotional and competing hard.

MouthBQ98 said:

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The sports with fighting issue in the past upped the penalty for them and/or sort of ritualized them so they're not very disruptive. Seems to me they all make the news, regardless of race, or if pro/college. I don't see that much of a difference in how they get covered to be honest. Frowned upon but some buys will be boys as well, when they're highly emotional and competing hard.

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My commentary was more aimed at the people who seem to think it's some societal indicator that there are sometimes fights in football. When in fact, fighting in sports truly is American as apple pie.

We have definitely been conditioned to expect/tolerate/make excuses for it in some sports more than others.

Again, for all the criticism I give the young black demographic outside of sports, I am pleasantly surprised with how well behaved and reatrained they are in basketball and football altogether.

For the love of all things holy, we were always taught to never take off your helmet during a brawl. Idiots!

Punishment has been handed down.

Massive college football fight leads to suspensions for more than two dozen players

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Grambling State's rivalry-game victory over Bethune-Cookman on Saturday was marred by a massive brawl that broke out at halftime.

The Southwestern Athletic Conference (SWAC) announced on Monday that more than two dozen players were suspended following the melee nine players from Bethune-Cookman and 18 from Grambling State.

"We're extremely disappointed by the events that transpired during halftime of the Bethune-Cookman at Grambling State football game," SWAC Commissioner Dr. Charles McClelland said in a statement. "Acts of that nature have zero place in the Southwestern Athletic Conference and intercollegiate athletics.

"The Conference Office has and will continue to enforce a zero-tolerance policy for all acts deemed to be unsportsmanlike and contrary to the high standard of good sportsmanship we expect from all individuals associated with the athletics programs within our league."

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El Gallo Blanco said:

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This is the only time you will ever find me being a little "race baity". It is kind of funny that fights are considered almost traditional in some of the predominantly white sports but super taboo and frowned upon in a few predominantly black sports.

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It's pretty simple. In hockey where the majority of players are white they have 1v1 fights. That's why people have no problem with. A fair fight.

25Lighters said:

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El Gallo Blanco said:

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This is the only time you will ever find me being a little "race baity". It is kind of funny that fights are considered almost traditional in some of the predominantly white sports but super taboo and frowned upon in a few predominantly black sports.

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It's pretty simple. In hockey where the majority of players are white they have 1v1 fights. That's why people have no problem with. A fair fight.

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Why don't people have problems with MLB fights? Everyone i know is like "hell ya!" when they break out...including me. Very rarely in football is it someone getting jumped or the sh** kicked out of them. It's usually a group from one team going after a group from the other.

IslandAg76 said:

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Never understood the thought process of taking off your helmet in a football fight

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Or the thought process of those who are throwing haymakers at guys who are still wearing their helmet

EclipseAg said:

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El Gallo Blanco said:

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Backyard Gator said:

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Both baseball and hockey have an etiquette to them, a set of unwritten rules that are enforced by opposing players on both sides. In hockey, if you directly target a star player on a team with the intent to injure him, there are designated goons on the team, enforcers, who will knock your ass out.

---

So why can't this apply in NBA and football? Someone tries to hurt Marcel Reed, or pushes his helmet into the ground after tackle, we should send some ass kicking 3rd string goons out to enact justice against the other team right?

Still trying to understand the difference.

---

Wasn't Kurt Rambis of the Lakers considered an "enforcer?" Someone who would purposely give up a few fouls every game to send a message?

As I said earlier, the biggest reason fighting is allowed in hockey is that physical brutality is part of the game, and helmets weren't really mandatory for all players until the mid-2000s.. So you have a lot of guys hitting each other, sometimes with sticks, or playing "elbows up." Tempers flared and players would square off.

It was a Canadian cultural thing. Plus, letting someone retaliate by fighting was seen as a way to 1) blow off steam and allow a cool down period 2) protect players by ensuring that overly aggressive play would be punished.

Physical play isn't really allowed in baseball or the NBA, and contact is penalized. So it reduces the pressure.

Football is physical but again, players stop every 10 seconds and return to their huddles, so things cool off. Plus, wearing helmets tends to discourage players from throwing punches.

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Hanson brothers. One of the best movies of all time, Slapshot.

El Gallo Blanco said:

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25Lighters said:

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El Gallo Blanco said:

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This is the only time you will ever find me being a little "race baity". It is kind of funny that fights are considered almost traditional in some of the predominantly white sports but super taboo and frowned upon in a few predominantly black sports.

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It's pretty simple. In hockey where the majority of players are white they have 1v1 fights. That's why people have no problem with. A fair fight.

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Why don't people have problems with MLB fights? Everyone i know is like "hell ya!" when they break out...including me. Very rarely in football is it someone getting jumped or the sh** kicked out of them. It's usually a group from one team going after a group from the other.

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Not sure what football you watch but usually the fights are won by which team has more people out numbered. Just look at the first video linked as proof. They do get jumped and do get the **** kicked out of them.

Baseball fights are almost always the batter running up to the pitcher and then both benches creating a dog pile. The fight lasts maybe 5 seconds before each team is out there.

GeorgiAg said:

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Hanson brothers. One of the best movies of all time, Slapshot.

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Puttin' on the foil!