maroonthrunthru said:

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Please tell me, oh great overlord, what price I may ask for my personal property…

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Flip side works too. People will happily not pay **** for a non marquee game or an 11:00 in September

It astounds me what some people will pay for attending an event. If fools want to go broke for a couple hours of entertainment, let them.

Yeah, or you poach the off days or early/late season at less high demand hills like I do.

MouthBQ98 said:

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If the retailer fails to set their prices at market value to maximize revenue, why shouldn't the free market be allowed to balance supply and demand by adjusting pricing?

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Because it isn't a free market and they have a better understanding of their customers and market.

For one, a lot of this is caused by circumventing purchase limits and/or queues set by the retailers in order for individuals or small groups to manipulate the market. Market distortion and manipulation doesn't make a free market.

For two, it isn't just about maximizing current revenue (though what you're talking about is more accurately profit). Supply/demand curves don't happen in a vacuum, and businesses operate over longer timespans than one transaction. These markets have high value specifically because they're widely popular, but increasing prices risks that popularity among consumers and hurts long term value.

Raising prices reduces long term customer retention, hurting the strategic position of the business. Pokemon is a perfect example. Collecting the TCG is a hobby, but it's a hobby because of the brand and because it has such mass appeal. If a lot of people become priced out and leave the hobby, the customer base shrinks, the hobby as a whole becomes less desirable, and it attracts fewer customers. Current prices could certainly be increased, but it would come at the cost of availability and damage the brand and future sales.

Concerts are similar. Artists don't want to price out a large segment of their audience because they may risk losing them. Even if there are limited tickets and not every fan can get them, having a chance is more appealing than being priced out, so they're not going to be resentful if they can't get tickets. Price them out and they may buy less merch and listen to less of your music, weakening your branding ties, popularity, and potentially future tour and album sales.

Tex100 said:

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maroonthrunthru said:

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Please tell me, oh great overlord, what price I may ask for my personal property…

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Flip side works too. People will happily not pay **** for a non marquee game or an 11:00 in September

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As soon as A&M has 2+ losses and we're playing nobody, I can get as many tickets as I want for next to nothing.

t.u. on the other hand... I paid over $400 to watch that one at COSM in Dallas last year.

ABATTBQ11 said:

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MouthBQ98 said:

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Concerts are similar. Artists don't want to price out a large segment of their audience because they may risk losing them. Even if there are limited tickets and not every fan can get them, having a chance is more appealing than being priced out, so they're not going to be resentful if they can't get tickets. Price them out and they may buy less merch and listen to less of your music, weakening your branding ties, popularity, and potentially future tour and album sales.

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There is some natural market cap for concerts due to price.

Last year around Christmas, the wife and I saw Robert Earl Keen at Houston House of Blues and bought GA tix.

This year, we were planning to go again but the wife wants to sit down so I'm looking at balcony tickets. They went on sale at $130 or so but are now $450.

Simple solution is - we're not going. No way is REK worth $900+ for two tickets when I've already seen him a few times and even got to meet him at the old House of Blues on Sunset in LA. I enjoy his shows but not at that price.

On the other hand, if REK started his ticket sales at $450/seat, there's probably no way anybody is buying those.

2 weeks ago, I bought tickets for Rush next summer at $400/seat. The only way that worked was because I got in on the Citi presale. Those same seats are now going for $600-$700/seat.

Of course the other question is, are those real resellers or is that Ticketmaster trying to artificially drive up the price.

Yes, it is a problem but... is government intervention required?

Oh, but it is. The free market works as best as it is able to around any rules or restrictions that are attempted to be out in place to fix prices or restrictions that are sales. There is a fixed supply, with initially controlled access, and the seller and the applicable laws may attempt to restrict who has access to buy and how many and how they may be resold/transferred, but market forces are always at work around any framework of restrictions to align supply and demand as best as possible given any distortion enforced by rules or laws.

It's not a pure free market, no. But it is in the sense that the laws of supply and demand still apply to the extent there are any windows for them to do so.


The aftermarket privies opportunities for those with limited initial access to participate if they are willing to pay the market price. The only argument I can see is regarding who are granted initial access to purchase at the retail price and how that allocation is managed.

HollywoodBQ said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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MouthBQ98 said:

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Concerts are similar. Artists don't want to price out a large segment of their audience because they may risk losing them. Even if there are limited tickets and not every fan can get them, having a chance is more appealing than being priced out, so they're not going to be resentful if they can't get tickets. Price them out and they may buy less merch and listen to less of your music, weakening your branding ties, popularity, and potentially future tour and album sales.

---

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There is some natural market cap for concerts due to price.

Last year around Christmas, the wife and I saw Robert Earl Keen at Houston House of Blues and bought GA tix.

This year, we were planning to go again but the wife wants to sit down so I'm looking at balcony tickets. They went on sale at $130 or so but are now $450.

Simple solution is - we're not going. No way is REK worth $900+ for two tickets when I've already seen him a few times and even got to meet him at the old House of Blues on Sunset in LA. I enjoy his shows but not at that price.

On the other hand, if REK started his ticket sales at $450/seat, there's probably no way anybody is buying those.

2 weeks ago, I bought tickets for Rush next summer at $400/seat. The only way that worked was because I got in on the Citi presale. Those same seats are now going for $600-$700/seat.

Of course the other question is, are those real resellers or is that Ticketmaster trying to artificially drive up the price.

Yes, it is a problem but... is government intervention required?

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How can it be Rush without the original drummer?

My solution is that I simply don't go to events that I think aren't worth the price. I don't insist I have some right to attend at the initial face value at release. If I am that motivated, I would make sure to find a way to get in on the initial sale if possible.

MouthBQ98 said:

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If the retailer fails to set their prices at market value to maximize revenue, why shouldn't the free market be allowed to balance supply and demand by adjusting pricing?

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If everybody had the same opportunity to buy the initial tickets, the market would be set just fine. Allowing bots and scalpers to get in and buy most of the tickets before the "market" even opens gives one group a monopoly from which to set the pricing.

I think it would be easy to fix by just assigning a name to each ticket at the point of purchase. To change the name on a ticket, you would have to go back through the original system to get the name changed, which would give the seller control over that market. Then just check tickets against IDs at the gate. When you get somebody buying hundreds of tickets to each show and then coming back to change names 2-4 tickets at a time, it will be easy to identify who the scalpers are.

I agree there are issues with reasonable or fair distribution at the initial point of sale, but that is a technology hurdle that can be overcome various ways.

Tex100 said:

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HollywoodBQ said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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MouthBQ98 said:

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Concerts are similar. Artists don't want to price out a large segment of their audience because they may risk losing them. Even if there are limited tickets and not every fan can get them, having a chance is more appealing than being priced out, so they're not going to be resentful if they can't get tickets. Price them out and they may buy less merch and listen to less of your music, weakening your branding ties, popularity, and potentially future tour and album sales.

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There is some natural market cap for concerts due to price.

Last year around Christmas, the wife and I saw Robert Earl Keen at Houston House of Blues and bought GA tix.

This year, we were planning to go again but the wife wants to sit down so I'm looking at balcony tickets. They went on sale at $130 or so but are now $450.

Simple solution is - we're not going. No way is REK worth $900+ for two tickets when I've already seen him a few times and even got to meet him at the old House of Blues on Sunset in LA. I enjoy his shows but not at that price.

On the other hand, if REK started his ticket sales at $450/seat, there's probably no way anybody is buying those.

2 weeks ago, I bought tickets for Rush next summer at $400/seat. The only way that worked was because I got in on the Citi presale. Those same seats are now going for $600-$700/seat.

Of course the other question is, are those real resellers or is that Ticketmaster trying to artificially drive up the price.

Yes, it is a problem but... is government intervention required?

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How can it be Rush without the original drummer?

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The original drummer died back in 2008
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rutsey

HollywoodBQ said:

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Tex100 said:

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HollywoodBQ said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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MouthBQ98 said:

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Concerts are similar. Artists don't want to price out a large segment of their audience because they may risk losing them. Even if there are limited tickets and not every fan can get them, having a chance is more appealing than being priced out, so they're not going to be resentful if they can't get tickets. Price them out and they may buy less merch and listen to less of your music, weakening your branding ties, popularity, and potentially future tour and album sales.

---

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There is some natural market cap for concerts due to price.

Last year around Christmas, the wife and I saw Robert Earl Keen at Houston House of Blues and bought GA tix.

This year, we were planning to go again but the wife wants to sit down so I'm looking at balcony tickets. They went on sale at $130 or so but are now $450.

Simple solution is - we're not going. No way is REK worth $900+ for two tickets when I've already seen him a few times and even got to meet him at the old House of Blues on Sunset in LA. I enjoy his shows but not at that price.

On the other hand, if REK started his ticket sales at $450/seat, there's probably no way anybody is buying those.

2 weeks ago, I bought tickets for Rush next summer at $400/seat. The only way that worked was because I got in on the Citi presale. Those same seats are now going for $600-$700/seat.

Of course the other question is, are those real resellers or is that Ticketmaster trying to artificially drive up the price.

Yes, it is a problem but... is government intervention required?

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How can it be Rush without the original drummer?

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The original drummer died back in 2008
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rutsey

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. That is my point. Without Neal Pert it isn't Rush. But you are paying a substantial price to see the other two guys and maybe a Neal Pert protege.

MouthBQ98 said:

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I agree there are issues with reasonable or fair distribution at the initial point of sale, but that is a technology hurdle that can be overcome various ways.

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The problem is incentive. Initial point of sale, resale and scalpers are all incentivised to not do this and they never will be without a heavier hand intervention. Just like the DOJ is trying to do now for price fixing at initial point of sale for ticketmaster/live nation.

There is too much incentive currently for the original ticket seller to allow re-selling of that same ticket as they get to profit off of both sales.

Simple solution is to prevent original ticket sellers from being able to resale the same tickets they sell. THEN the free market would fix the problem itself - namely that the original ticket prices would get higher for popular events as the artists/venues/sellers look to maximize their profit. They already partly do that through seat specific seat prices and tiered pricing (which is typically only used in seat-less venues like nightclubs, etc).

At that point companies like Ticketmaster wouldn't even have to stop the bots and resellers - the resellers would just get priced out of the market.

But so long as the ticket sellers can take a cut of resales that is bigger than any increase in price would give them they'll continue to do just that.

Also, the merger of Ticketmaster and Live Nation should never have been allowed. They need to be broken up.

If the venue or promoter wants to stop resale they can easily do that. Joe Rogan's Comedy Mothership has 0 resale. The purchaser of the tickets must be present for the tickets to be validated and the ticket holders let in.

txags92 said:

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MouthBQ98 said:

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If the retailer fails to set their prices at market value to maximize revenue, why shouldn't the free market be allowed to balance supply and demand by adjusting pricing?

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If everybody had the same opportunity to buy the initial tickets, the market would be set just fine. Allowing bots and scalpers to get in and buy most of the tickets before the "market" even opens gives one group a monopoly from which to set the pricing.

I think it would be easy to fix by just assigning a name to each ticket at the point of purchase. To change the name on a ticket, you would have to go back through the original system to get the name changed, which would give the seller control over that market. Then just check tickets against IDs at the gate. When you get somebody buying hundreds of tickets to each show and then coming back to change names 2-4 tickets at a time, it will be easy to identify who the scalpers are.

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That isn't how it works. Botters use software automation to build tens of thousands of fake accounts and give them VCC's to order with. They can also give virtual phone numbers for easy 2FA authentication, and they can easily mask IP's and do plenty of other things to disguise themselves. Each account that gets through will get its allotment of tickets. It's not hundreds of tickets under one person, it's thousands of tickets under thousands of "people". If an account stops working because it's been flagged they can just wipe it and build a new one automatically. Once you have the software and enough rented hardware or cloud space to run it at scale, you don't need a lot of people to run an operation.

These are not the guys selling tickets last minute outside the stadium. They have significant time and money invested in infrastructure to execute these large scale buys and resales, and they're not afraid to drop 6-7 figures trying to make 6-7 figures. The groups that write and sell the automation software operate like any software company. They are constantly developing and updating to stay ahead of retailers and each other, and they do it because they make a lot of money

tio said:

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If the venue or promoter wants to stop resale they can easily do that. Joe Rogan's Comedy Mothership has 0 resale. The purchaser of the tickets must be present for the tickets to be validated and the ticket holders let in.

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That only works when you build your own ticket service. Do you really expect every single artist/performer to build their own? Do you expect little small bands playing the house of blues or other smaller venues to pay to build that and maintain it along with the liability? The artists can already dictate MSRP for the very first sale to their fans, their job is done at that point.

1. Things that are essential to live, things like health care, emergency room services, prescription medications, etc, maybe "scalping" is not fair. I even question anti-scalping rules around hurricanes, tornados, etc.

2. Things that are just fun and not essential, LIKE SPORTS TICKETS, should have zero restrictions on priice. Nobody is going to die if they can't see sip vs A&M last year.

Quote:

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"Right now we are seeing tickets 5, 10, even 100 times more than face value depending on the popularity of the artist,"

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You don't say? You mean the more popular the artist, the higher the ticket prices go? Who could have predicted that?

The solution is dynamic pricing. People will pay in one form or another. It used to be that we would wait in line for a day or two - our increased price was time and money. With the internet, I guess it's how quickly you can click a mouse over and over. Since pricing is the best means for society to distribute goods and services, we should rely on them. Some people are willing to pay very little to hear their music - they can stream. Some want to see it live - and they are willing to pay.

And this is the ultimate take. There isn't a single one of these tickets that's crucial to someone's life.

I think you missed the point. Neil was not the original drummer in RUSH. When he joined, they still remained...RUSH.

Dynamic Pricing has inflated the cost of concert tickets way more than scalping.

The Chicken Ranch said:

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Dynamic Pricing has inflated the cost of concert tickets way more than scalping.

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So? At least the artists get part of that vs none of the scalping price increase.

The Chicken Ranch said:

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Dynamic Pricing has inflated the cost of concert tickets way more than scalping.

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That can be controlled today by the artist by setting an allowable msrp range if they have enough clout to add that into the contract with selling platforms. The problem is, most dont have that. If you don't agree to all the shady terms giving the selling platform most of the control of the pricing, sale and commission for sale, you just get ignored.

https://wjla.com/news/local/music-washington-dc-union-stage-presents-resale-admendment-act-ward-6-artists-tickets-sales-fraud-price-gouging-market-stubhub-vivivd-seats-ticketmaster-livenation-concert-consumers

New article from yesterday on this topic.

Tex100 said:

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HollywoodBQ said:

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Tex100 said:

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How can it be Rush without the original drummer?

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The original drummer died back in 2008
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rutsey

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. That is my point. Without Neal Pert it isn't Rush. But you are paying a substantial price to see the other two guys and maybe a Neal Pert protege.

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I was trying to have a little bit of fun with you.

Neil Peart wasn't the original drummer.

But Neil did pass away at the beginning of 2020 just before The Vid reached our "Alien Shore".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Peart

These bills are absolutely horrible for the consumer.

Unfortunately they won't find that out until they go into action.

You'll be paying just as much on the high end, but also now a much higher floor price.

You're handing all the control to one entity (essentially Ticketmaster) and trusting that even though you've proven you'll pay $1000 for a ticket that they aren't going to charge you $1000 for a ticket because they got rid of scalpers.

Spoiler: They're still going to charge you $1000. But that $5 ticket you could get for the Tuesday night baseball game on Stubhub? It's now $25 from the box office.

KRT-1 said:

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I think you missed the point. Neil was not the original drummer in RUSH. When he joined, they still remained...RUSH.

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who made them famous, Neil

The very last thing we need is more government intervention.

Lots of scalpers in this thread

I have sugar bowl tickets and have for three years always in the 6th deck and trying to move up or down in this case. Guess what this year I moved down to the first deck. Why and here is your simple solution- the sugar bowl instituted Id.me and ticket holders had to proof who they were through a government website. This eliminated massive bots in their system. Due to this Id check I moved down to the first deck.

I asked how many bots they had and they said a lot.

I know the peach bowl is doing this Id.me thing as well.

whoop1995 said:

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I have sugar bowl tickets and have for three years always in the 6th deck and trying to move up or down in this case. Guess what this year I moved down to the first deck. Why and here is your simple solution- the sugar bowl instituted Id.me and ticket holders had to proof who they were through a government website. This eliminated massive bots in their system. Due to this Id check I moved down to the first deck.

I asked how many bots they had and they said a lot.

I know the peach bowl is doing this Id.me thing as well.

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Great idea. And without government laws to **** it up.

Wow. Amazing.

So then are they going to regulate the hotels next? Why is it a manditory two night stay? Why do they charge 2-5 times the non-peak price when a football game is in town and more for certain games than others? Is airfare next? Or parking spots? Grocery prices for holidays? College books? The post office just raised their prices in early October and will supposedly lower them in January. Isn't that a form of scalping?

How about grub hub or DoorDash? They charge the Chinese restaurant where I live 33%. After talking to the owner about it he says he makes $100 per month on all the sales for DoorDash and grub hub. Yes he covers his costs but they are taking his profit.

He must Rely on people walking in for take out and dining in to make the owners draw. What is grub hub doing for 33% of his money? The sales of his restaurant with grub hub and other delivery services are about $13k monthly so they make over $4k for what? He says it's a nessesary evil to help pay for his overhead but personally he makes nothing from them.

American Hardwood said:

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It astounds me what some people will pay for attending an event. If fools want to go broke for a couple hours of entertainment, let them.

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This is pretty much my take. If I can't get tickets through the artist presale, I'm very likely out. I refuse to pay 2x the original listing price.

The bots buy them all up the instant the presales start.

Here was my experience trying to buy sphere tickets to The Eagles. I joined the instant the artist presale was available and had almost 45,000 "people" ahead of me.