Seeing stories about flight delays around the country and air traffic controllers not being at work. The story line is air traffic control towers going unstaffed due to the shut down.

Well ATC is deemed to be (very) necessary and essential and therefore required to show up for work. Additionally the "working without pay" argument is untrue because, as per my other thread this morning, NO ONE in the federal system has missed a paycheck yet.

So should these controllers that aren't showing up for work be fired?

KBTX link but it's a CNN story

Quote:

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The effects of the government shutdown were felt by many travelers Monday night as air traffic controller staffing issues led to delays at major airports, including Phoenix, Denver and several major Midwest and East Coast hubs.
In California, it got so bad that the control tower at the Hollywood Burbank Airport had to shut down because no controllers were in place to guide takeoffs and landings. Flights had to follow procedures usually only used at airports without towers, which led to delays of more than two-and-a-half hours.

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Quote:

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Officials say the staff shortages are a direct result of the shutdown. Controllers are considered essential, which means they must work, but they are not being paid. That's led to large numbers of sickouts.

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Why is the Secretary spreading this lie?

Quote:

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Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy said earlier Monday that controllers are struggling to make ends meet without pay, and some are considering taking second jobs to get by.

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If they are fired who is going to replace them, there is a shortage already.

1939 said:

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If they are fired who is going to replace them, there is a shortage already.

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Military ATC

During the PATCO union strike in 1981, Reagan fired over 11K ATC strikers and they brought in military Air Traffic Controllers (and sent supervisors to the consoles) until they could hire/train replacements.

1939 said:

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If they are fired who is going to replace them, there is a shortage already.

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Who did Reagan replace them with? I honestly don't recall.

They've been ordered to work. They're calling in sick. They're lying that they are not being paid.
They have NOT missed a paycheck yet. If that does indeed happen then they will get their owed back pay.

But lets just endanger the flying public with a temper tantrum. We haven't heard yet if they're mad at the Orange Man and his merry band of MAGA or if they're raging against Schumer and AOC.

EDIT.. I see my primary question was answered above. That's what I thought the answer was.

Would you come into work if your employer said you were not going to be paid for that work?

WOW KBTX parroting a CNN story. Who would have thought?

And then create a readiness issue in the military - just a shell game at that point. Just hire good ATCs and pay them well enough to stick around. And hire enough that they aren't overworked.

doubledog said:

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WOW KBTX parroting a CNN story. Who would have thought?

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KBTX is CNN/MSDNC on the Brazos.

They run more stories every day designed to hurt Trump and Republicans than they do about local events.

fc2112 said:

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Would you come into work if your employer said you were not going to be paid for that work?

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They will get paid once we re-open.

AtomicActuator said:

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And then create a readiness issue in the military - just a shell game at that point. Just hire good ATCs and pay them well enough to stick around. And hire enough that they aren't overworked.

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Tell your party to vote to end the shutdown because the fault lies with Schumer and your side.

fc2112 said:

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Would you come into work if your employer said you were not going to be paid for that work?

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They get paid. There is a law requiring it once the government reopens.

AtomicActuator said:

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And then create a readiness issue in the military - just a shell game at that point. Just hire good ATCs and pay them well enough to stick around. And hire enough that they aren't overworked.

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Yes, because hiring more controllers means the extras wouldn't call in sick! They'd show up! /hard eye roll at really dumb take

Logos Stick said:

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fc2112 said:

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Would you come into work if your employer said you were not going to be paid for that work?

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They will get paid once we re-open.

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So - "Come into work and we'll pay you - some day. Don't know when - with no interest".

You still cool with it?

A dozen facilities saw staff shortages? Out of how many? Thousands?

And how many people called in sick? Dozens out of how many? Tens of thousands?

Cue the There are Dozens of us gifs.

Also Sean Duffy is full of it and is making up stories to try to pressure the Dems to end the shutdown. Ain't nobody looking for a 2nd job before they have even missed 1 paycheck.

AtomicActuator said:

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And then create a readiness issue in the military - just a shell game at that point. Just hire good ATCs and pay them well enough to stick around. And hire enough that they aren't overworked.

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But how will you make up for historical disadvantages with that approach?

fc2112 said:

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Logos Stick said:

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fc2112 said:

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Would you come into work if your employer said you were not going to be paid for that work?

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They will get paid once we re-open.

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So - "Come into work and we'll pay you - some day. Don't know when - with no interest".

You still cool with it?

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Yes, I have savings like a responsible adult.

Well it probably goes without saying that they need to fire the ones not showing up without documentation of an illness.

Just that military ATCs aren't a great solution, and a very temporary stopgap only. And continuity matters - we shouldn't be compromising safety at all. They should start hiring and training the replacements now (if we had a functioning government). Then we can be more aggressive at canning the bad ones when we aren't short staffed already.

powerbelly said:

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fc2112 said:

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Logos Stick said:

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fc2112 said:

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Would you come into work if your employer said you were not going to be paid for that work?

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They will get paid once we re-open.

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So - "Come into work and we'll pay you - some day. Don't know when - with no interest".

You still cool with it?

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Yes, I have savings like a responsible adult.

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Good - I need my yard mowed and bushes trimmed. What time can I expect you?

Their paychecks on Friday will not include pay for Oct 1-4. The Democrats need to vote for the CR and open the govt. We shouldn't expect anyone to work without pay, which includes ATC, military and many essential civilians. If a CR is not passed by the 13th, military pay will be affected. Enough is enough.

fc2112 said:

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Logos Stick said:

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fc2112 said:

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Would you come into work if your employer said you were not going to be paid for that work?

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They will get paid once we re-open.

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So - "Come into work and we'll pay you - some day. Don't know when - with no interest".

You still cool with it?

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Yes. Any more questions?

fc2112 said:

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powerbelly said:

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fc2112 said:

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Logos Stick said:

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fc2112 said:

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Would you come into work if your employer said you were not going to be paid for that work?

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They will get paid once we re-open.

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So - "Come into work and we'll pay you - some day. Don't know when - with no interest".

You still cool with it?

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Yes, I have savings like a responsible adult.

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Good - I need my yard mowed and bushes trimmed. What time can I expect you?

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How much you paying? My consulting rate is $500/hour.

You are semi-correct on the pay check point. Today starts the new pay period, so everybody got their checks for the previous 2 weeks minus the shutdown days.

fc2112 said:

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Would you come into work if your employer said you were not going to be paid for that work?

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by contract they have to come to work during the shutdown. So YES, I would come to work if that's what my contract says. And I wouldn't 'call in sick' to screw up everyone else's life b/c our elected officials are trash.

fc2112 said:

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Would you come into work if your employer said you were not going to be paid for that work?

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Apples and oranges. It doesn't matter. Their jobs are deemed essential, so they are required to do so. If they don't like it, they should quit.

All those that aren't back in their jobs tomorrow should be fired. Use military air traffic controllers and do exactly what Reagan did.

doubledog said:

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WOW KBTX parroting a CNN story. Who would have thought?

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Reagan with the big FAFO all the way back in 1981!

fc2112 said:

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Would you come into work if your employer said you were not going to be paid for that work?

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1). No one has missed a paycheck. Do you get paid everyday? No you don't. You give your employer a 2 week (roughly) IOW every pay period. Federal payday was last week immediately before the "shutdown" started.

2). They were ordered to work. The sick-out is effectively a strike.

fc2112 said:

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powerbelly said:

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fc2112 said:

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Logos Stick said:

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fc2112 said:

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Would you come into work if your employer said you were not going to be paid for that work?

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They will get paid once we re-open.

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So - "Come into work and we'll pay you - some day. Don't know when - with no interest".

You still cool with it?

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Yes, I have savings like a responsible adult.

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Good - I need my yard mowed and bushes trimmed. What time can I expect you?

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This is such a pathetic argument. ATCs are hired knowing that they are essential workers and that they are required to work during a shutdown. I know that an employee agreement means nothing to Democrats but it means quite a bit to the rest of us. They haven't even missed a paycheck yet. If they are calling in sick now they need to be fired at the earliest possible time and replaced.

Seriously, if Trump needs to go Ronald Reagan on them then so be it. We can't have Federal employees colluding with Dems to give them an advantage in negotiations.

Rapier108 said:

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doubledog said:

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WOW KBTX parroting a CNN story. Who would have thought?

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KBTX is CNN/MSDNC on the Brazos.

They run more stories every day designed to hurt Trump and Republicans than they do about local events.

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The source in this case has no relevance to the story. The event is happening and the quoted portion in my OP is factually correct as the events are happening.

I needed a link, so I went where if seen it. Fix was taking about it this morning as well but I can't link the TV

When President Reagan fired the strikers, flying was very difficult. I remember going to the airplane in Alaska and calling for a clearance and we were told to call back in three hours. In the 48 contiguous states, we would just takeoff VFR, if the weather was good enough, but we couldn't do that if we had to cross the Air Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ).

Even before the shutdown ATC has been so severely understaffed that almost everyone was required to work overtime. The schedules are grueling, but the pay is good enough that folks make a career out of it. The washout rate is so high with new hires that they can't hire and train enough people to get staffing levels up.

I would bet the ones that are calling in sick are younger, already overworked, and don't see a long-term career in ATC. If they are thinking they won't be paid and the work sucks, why go into the office? I'm not saying it's right, but I'm not at all surprised.

Double Oaked said:

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Even before the shutdown ATC has been so severely understaffed that almost everyone was required to work overtime. The schedules are grueling, but the pay is good enough that folks make a career out of it. The washout rate is so high with new hires that they can't hire and train enough people to get staffing levels up.

I would bet the ones that are calling in sick are younger, already overworked, and don't see a long-term career in ATC. If they are thinking they won't be paid and the work sucks, why go into the office? I'm not saying it's right, but I'm not at all surprised.

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A story broke a couple months back about DEI exacerbation in ATC shortages.

DEI proponents were pushing unqualified minorities into the pipeline. OBVIOUSLY that increases attrition (both within training and on the job where stresses & demands are more overwhelming to less capable individuals).

Not sure on the exact headcount this undercut the current force, but it certainly throttled staffing efforts.

AtomicActuator said:

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And then create a readiness issue in the military - just a shell game at that point. Just hire good ATCs and pay them well enough to stick around. And hire enough that they aren't overworked.

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They would be paid if democrats would pass the clean CR in front of them

Get Off My Lawn said:

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Double Oaked said:

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Even before the shutdown ATC has been so severely understaffed that almost everyone was required to work overtime. The schedules are grueling, but the pay is good enough that folks make a career out of it. The washout rate is so high with new hires that they can't hire and train enough people to get staffing levels up.

I would bet the ones that are calling in sick are younger, already overworked, and don't see a long-term career in ATC. If they are thinking they won't be paid and the work sucks, why go into the office? I'm not saying it's right, but I'm not at all surprised.

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A story broke a couple months back about DEI exacerbation in ATC shortages.

DEI proponents were pushing unqualified minorities into the pipeline. OBVIOUSLY that increases attrition (both within training and on the job where stresses & demands are more overwhelming to less capable individuals).

Not sure on the exact headcount this undercut the current force, but it certainly throttled staffing efforts.

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No clue. But roughly 50% of those that get accepted into the program never make into a an actual controller role. So the existing controllers end up working the equivalent of 6 days a week, every week. No real weekends off, and at least one or two overnight shifts. It's a pretty awful schedule.