Apollo79 said:

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Apache said:

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Tribal cultures may well be the major variable at play here.

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Culture is a HUGE variable, as are available resources.
Guns, Germs & Steel gets a lot of things right with regard to why Europe/Asia developed the most advanced civilizations on earth: access to good crops & easily domesticated animals being one of the primary drivers.
Sub-saharan Africa is short on both of those, the Indians that settled North America wiped out the horses & camels that could possibly been domesticated for food.

Europeans hit the jackpot as did the Chinese, however European culture is what drove them to dominate the world for the past several hundred years. Diamond didn't factor that into his otherwise solid book.

African culture was largely tribal until a little over 100 years ago & still haunts them in negative (and some positive) ways.

While I do believe that intelligence heritable, the bulk of the difference can be attributed to a variety of reasons including culture (value of education, family, rule of law, corruption etc.) and local resources/factors (ie, if you've got to go to work at age 12 in a cobalt mine to help the family vs. continuing schooling)

Recall the backwater that was Europe from 500 to 1000 AD. Things change but can take decades or even centuries. The world advanced but Sub Saharan Africa was stagnant.... the Flynn effect has a lot of ground to make up there and isn't being helped by the culture in many areas.

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major fallacy that Europe was a backwater from 500-1000

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Yeah, some historians are now claiming that it wasn't the dark age that many thought it was.

93MarineHorn said:

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I'm at work and can't watch the video, but this sure sounds like excuse making for why everything in Africa is a mess. African immigrants to the US can get to work on time.

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Come on dude, this is genetic, time preference is a function of IQ and the average IQ of Africa is around 70.

95LawAg said:

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Let me know when y'all can provide credible scientific evidence to support your position that race and genetics are responsible for different levels of intelligence. The Holiday Inn Express approach is lacking.

Shocking that rural Africans might not pass an intelligence exam designed by Americans to be taken by Americans for measuring suitability for joining an American military organization. Can you tell me about the design and contents of that exam? And how it accounts for cultural, language, and other biases?

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The entirety of modern behavioral genetics has proven IQ is directly related to genetics over and over and over again.

I would post studies but you don't care about any of that, you clearly just want to call people racist to shut down any discussion of the actual issues that result from this difference.

The fact that you are a lawyer and have no idea that the LSAT is a literal IQ test is funny. It's directly correlated with IQ. You can then go look up LSAT average scores by race easily.

DallasAg 94 said:

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In fairness, most NGOs get setup to sustain themselves. If they actually fixed problems, they'd no longer be needed, so when they insert themselves they (intentionally/unintentionally create a dependency which substantiated it's expansion by saying "see how much good we are doing?"

There was a water purification system installed in a local community that cost $250k. It lasted 6 months. The people who brought it to the area didn't realize the tribe couldn't go to Wal"Mart to get new filters and so it sat and decayed.

You've heard it said "give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, teach him to fish and he'll feed himself."

It could also be said, "Give a man endless supplies of free food and he'll quickly stop working for food."

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Even if they did have a Walmart available it would have decayed any way because the concept of maintenance doesn't exist in Africa.

95LawAg said:

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Let me know when y'all can provide credible scientific evidence to support your position that race and genetics are responsible for different levels of intelligence. The Holiday Inn Express approach is lacking.

Shocking that rural Africans might not pass an intelligence exam designed by Americans to be taken by Americans for measuring suitability for joining an American military organization. Can you tell me about the design and contents of that exam? And how it accounts for cultural, language, and other biases?

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IQ is the single most credible metric in the entirety of the social sciences.

But many people (evidently including you) don't like the evidence so you refuse to accept it. I have tried innumerable times to explain how our modern IQ tests are as culturally unbiased as humanly possible to those of your persuasion and not once has it ever convinced someone. You'll believe what you want to believe

95LawAg said:

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What test was used to measure intelligence of that population? How was it designed to account for cultural, socioeconomic, and other factors?

Again, what is the minimum requirement for the US military? The ASVAB is not an IQ test. The AFQT is not an IQ test, but it is roughly correlated to an average intellgence range. The bottom 10% of AFQT takers are considered ineligible for military service based upon that exam. Any correlation of the results of an unrelated exam given to a group of sub-Saharan Africans to the results of a group of mostly Americans taking the ASVAB is wading far into speculative territory.

Do I disagree that individuals below a certain intelligence level aren't suitable, or even appropriate for military service? Of course not. Our military needs certain standards, and I also don't want it to be become a mechanism to dispose of low IQ members of our population.

That video talks nothing about race or genetics. So, I won't address that relative to the video.

So, moving away from the video, how does measuring a population in one part of the world (dominated by poverty, drought, disease, conflict, poor education, etc.) demonstrate a lower average IQ for the entire race? If race is the case, then middle and upper class Africans and their descendents living in places like England, Canada, Sweden, Italy, and the US with better access to education, better healthcare, less disease, less frequent war, should also test poorly on IQ exams. Otherwise, you are measuring environmental factors and not genetics or race.

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They do, this is what is referred to as regression to the mean. After a generation or two their kids are functionally identical to black Americans in test scores.

The only way to fix this is with aggressive eugenics to create a new, higher mean IQ. Otherwise it will just go down back to the norm.

Lots of takes in this thread, including my own, we can agree or disagree on various ideas and viewpoints, but as with just about everything in life it comes down to culture and desire.

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major fallacy that Europe was a backwater from 500-1000

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Yeah, some historians are now claiming that it wasn't the dark age that many thought it was.

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"Some" historians claim aliens helped people build the pyramids.

While there were some bright spots, by & large Western European civilization took a MAJOR step back with the fall of Rome in virtually every single metric. Literacy, Art, Science, Agriculture, Construction, Trade, Roads, etc. all went downhill and it's quite clear.

Anyway, this is kind of a digression & I'll bow out

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Which is why it is possible that sub-Saharan black Africans who have the worst combination of negative environmental factors over generations might actually have an average lower IQ. But, Sub-Saharan isn't a race, so blacks living elsewhere who aren't experiencing the same level of negative impacts of disease, starvation, war, etc. over generations, and through natural selection, sexual selection, and so on may have an average IQ comparable to other races.

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There are a number of very distinct genetic groups in Africa. It has significantly more genetic variation than any other continent. Even more than Western Eurasia compared to Eastern Eurasia.

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So, until a study can effectively isolate race as a distinguishing factor in IQ, to the exclusion of environmental factors across geographic locations, I will continue to assert, and be supported by the major psychological organizations, that race is not an independent determinant of IQ. Others will default the other direction. Both are choices, despite the theatrical statements of incredulousness that others don't share the same beliefs. I respect your informed (for those who actually have made the effort) decision, even while vehemently disagreeing with it and what it represents, and I assure you I am equally capable of making a different, but informed decision.

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I posted some of the most recent polygenic studies earlier that are based on the genome wide association studies that have identified thousands of genes that correlate positively and negatively with intelligence.

There are transracial adoption studies that show the same spreads among adopted children. East Asian > White > Mixed White/Black > Black. The children were all raised in optimal environments due to the education level and wealth of adoptive parents. East Asian adoptees were more likely to suffer early deprivation and malnourishment than US black adoptees.

https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/The-Minnesota-transracial-adoption-study%3A-A-of-IQ-Weinberg-Scarr/a2d785edd7aa61b7ba51355053cc61d8b924fe35

Admixture studies using biobanks.
https://www.mdpi.com/2624-8611/1/1/34

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Using data from the Philadelphia Neurodevelopmental Cohort, we examined whether European ancestry predicted cognitive ability over and above both parental socioeconomic status (SES) and measures of eye, hair, and skin color. First, using multi-group confirmatory factor analysis, we verified that strict factorial invariance held between self-identified African and European-Americans.

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They shut down access to the biobanks for use in intelligence studies after this study and another using biobanks.

Studies on brain size and brain structures.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/599472v1.abstract
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6893659/
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0013642
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/273639029_Genetics_and_Brain_Morphology
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29400417/

The same gap being maintained across household income and parental education level does not support the position that the gaps are predominantly cultural or environmental, but instead, suggests a hereditary regression to the mean.

(6) To take one example, among high-SES Blacks and Whites, the IQ gap remains close to one standard deviation. Even more remarkably, Whites and Asians with poorly educated parents often outperform Blacks whose parents are highly educated. pic.twitter.com/Vihb34pJX7

— Bo Winegard (@EPoe187) June 23, 2025

Sad that CRT has taken root and gaslit so many in the legal profession.

I found this to be a great read. I really appreciated that everyone maintained civility and discussed with lengthy posts.

bobbranco said:

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Sad that CRT has taken root and gaslit so many in the legal profession.

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I think it troubles many that intelligence is to a significant degree immutable and different abilities are not distributed evenly, despite ample evidence to the contrary. We all have different strengths and weaknesses, whether in athletic ability, intelligence, or otherwise.

As an example, given that I'm under six feet tall and when younger had athletic ability that was just somewhat above average but was a good student, I determined in high school that chasing a dream of being a pro athlete was not the best move. I therefore went to A&M and studied something that was marketable rather than going to a small school and playing sports. I could have devoted my every waking hour to being the best basketball player I could be and I would have never made the NBA. That is OK.

You can train a plow horse to run faster, but you will never turn it into a thoroughbred through training. That does not mean that a plow horse with a desire to get better should not be encouraged and given opportunities to max out its God-given abilities. It also means that plow horses should be not be put in the Kentucky Derby to meet some predetermined quota of different types of horses.

Lmfao! Yall supposedly intelligent people be arguing about African intelligence showing how unintelligent you actually are by wasting time on unproductive pilpul doublespeak.

I have never understood arguing on the internet like a bunch of damn women!

You understand behaving like a toddler, a woman is the next step in intellectual evolution. You can do it! When you get to man level you can understand the difference between arguing and discussing with different perspectives, it will cut down on the amount of arguing you do.

Martels Hammer said:

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Adjusted for inflation I believe the number a few decades ago was 9 Marshall plans worth of money gifted to Sub Saharan Africa with little to show for it. Instead a good case could be made that the gift has set them back.

1 Marshall plan rebuilt Western Europe post WWII for those that didn't know.

It will never change.

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We have been subsidizing the production of more Africans to the detriment of the rest of the world. They aren't going to magically become functional countries if we just give them a little more money. It's a fools errand. We need to stop giving them money and let their birth rates fall to their natural levels and just ignore the dark continent. We certainly don't need to be importing any more people from Africa.

5Amp said:

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Buck Turgidson said:

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Nothing is ever going to work in

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dazzling the work with numbers.

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The relationship of birth rates to life expectancy isn't a coincidence either. The other big factor is that industrialization tends to bring down birth rates and increase life expectancy.

FWIW I would expect race to have some factor in IQ but it's very hard to truly prove because you can't truly eliminate all other factors and any studies trying to do so are going to bring up memories of the Nazis. Science doesn't like to deal with uncomfortable topics.

It's really a distraction anyway. The geographic and cultural issues are far more relevant.

Aid to corrupt countries is a waste of said aid.

ultimately...

there are some problems that do not have solutions

Btw after watching that video more closely I think my wife who I thought was of English heritage and raised in West Texas is culturally Sub Saharan African in terms of her understanding of time. I realized early on that we could be on time for things or married but not both.

I promise, I have never seen that video clip before!
After having seen it, I am both pleased that I can come up with a Kennison like joke, and scared to death that I can think like him.

Tom Fox said:

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95LawAg said:

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Let me know when y'all can provide credible scientific evidence to support your position that race and genetics are responsible for different levels of intelligence. The Holiday Inn Express approach is lacking.

Shocking that rural Africans might not pass an intelligence exam designed by Americans to be taken by Americans for measuring suitability for joining an American military organization. Can you tell me about the design and contents of that exam? And how it accounts for cultural, language, and other biases?

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The obviously did not take an actual ASVAB but the average IQ for a subsaharan African if too low to join the US military. The average!

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Meh, the school district measured my son's IQ as average. He just made a 1500 on the SAT (which disappointed him) and a 35 on the ACT. My second son, a Ukrainian immigrant, failed the ASVAB but was at the the top of his trade school class. Apparently the army has no use for 6'1" 200 lb wrestlers who can weld. My 3rd son tested at 72 IQ and is now away at college. Honestly, you might be the person who's actually dumb AF.

Stone Choir said:

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DallasAg 94 said:

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In fairness, most NGOs get setup to sustain themselves. If they actually fixed problems, they'd no longer be needed, so when they insert themselves they (intentionally/unintentionally create a dependency which substantiated it's expansion by saying "see how much good we are doing?"

There was a water purification system installed in a local community that cost $250k. It lasted 6 months. The people who brought it to the area didn't realize the tribe couldn't go to Wal"Mart to get new filters and so it sat and decayed.

You've heard it said "give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, teach him to fish and he'll feed himself."

It could also be said, "Give a man endless supplies of free food and he'll quickly stop working for food."

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Even if they did have a Walmart available it would have decayed any way because the concept of maintenance doesn't exist in Africa.

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That wasn't my experience with the trench gardens that I dug in S. Africa. But subsistence is further complicated by things like HIV.

94chem said:

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Tom Fox said:

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95LawAg said:

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Let me know when y'all can provide credible scientific evidence to support your position that race and genetics are responsible for different levels of intelligence. The Holiday Inn Express approach is lacking.

Shocking that rural Africans might not pass an intelligence exam designed by Americans to be taken by Americans for measuring suitability for joining an American military organization. Can you tell me about the design and contents of that exam? And how it accounts for cultural, language, and other biases?

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The obviously did not take an actual ASVAB but the average IQ for a subsaharan African if too low to join the US military. The average!

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Meh, the school district measured my son's IQ as average. He just made a 1500 on the SAT (which disappointed him) and a 35 on the ACT. My second son, a Ukrainian immigrant, failed the ASVAB but was at the the top of his trade school class. Apparently the army has no use for 6'1" 200 lb wrestlers who can weld. My 3rd son tested at 72 IQ and is now away at college. Honestly, you might be the person who's actually dumb AF.

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134 IQ, 1480 SAT. 34 ACT. 170 LSAT. Graduated summa from UG. Cum from a T14 law school. I make a top1% income.

I think I'm good. Your kids being outliers doesn't change the value in IQ or standardized testing. And those numbers you are spouting are an outright lie or they are not trying equally on their varying testing.

And a 72 IQ is border line intellectually disabled. Almost too stupid to have to stand trial for a crime.

Tom Fox said:

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94chem said:

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Tom Fox said:

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95LawAg said:

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Let me know when y'all can provide credible scientific evidence to support your position that race and genetics are responsible for different levels of intelligence. The Holiday Inn Express approach is lacking.

Shocking that rural Africans might not pass an intelligence exam designed by Americans to be taken by Americans for measuring suitability for joining an American military organization. Can you tell me about the design and contents of that exam? And how it accounts for cultural, language, and other biases?

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The obviously did not take an actual ASVAB but the average IQ for a subsaharan African if too low to join the US military. The average!

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Meh, the school district measured my son's IQ as average. He just made a 1500 on the SAT (which disappointed him) and a 35 on the ACT. My second son, a Ukrainian immigrant, failed the ASVAB but was at the the top of his trade school class. Apparently the army has no use for 6'1" 200 lb wrestlers who can weld. My 3rd son tested at 72 IQ and is now away at college. Honestly, you might be the person who's actually dumb AF.

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134 IQ, 1480 SAT. 34 ACT. 170 LSAT. Graduated summa from UG. Cum from a T14 law school. I make a top1% income.

I think I'm good. Your kids being outliers doesn't change the value in IQ or standardized testing. And those numbers you are spouting are an outright lie or they are not trying equally on their varying testing.

And a 72 IQ is border line intellectually disabled. Almost too stupid to have to stand trial for a crime.

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I agree, there's no way you make a 1500 SAT, pass trade school and fail the ASVAB unless the ASVAB is written in Chinese. There's almost no possibility of having a 72 IQ and getting into a reasonable college, unless you're Forrest Gump.

94chem said:

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Stone Choir said:

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DallasAg 94 said:

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In fairness, most NGOs get setup to sustain themselves. If they actually fixed problems, they'd no longer be needed, so when they insert themselves they (intentionally/unintentionally create a dependency which substantiated it's expansion by saying "see how much good we are doing?"

There was a water purification system installed in a local community that cost $250k. It lasted 6 months. The people who brought it to the area didn't realize the tribe couldn't go to Wal"Mart to get new filters and so it sat and decayed.

You've heard it said "give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, teach him to fish and he'll feed himself."

It could also be said, "Give a man endless supplies of free food and he'll quickly stop working for food."

---

Even if they did have a Walmart available it would have decayed any way because the concept of maintenance doesn't exist in Africa.

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That wasn't my experience with the trench gardens that I dug in S. Africa. But subsistence is further complicated by things like HIV.

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South Africa has whites, I'm specifically referring to Subsaharan Africans.

Tom Fox said:

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94chem said:

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Tom Fox said:

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95LawAg said:

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Let me know when y'all can provide credible scientific evidence to support your position that race and genetics are responsible for different levels of intelligence. The Holiday Inn Express approach is lacking.

Shocking that rural Africans might not pass an intelligence exam designed by Americans to be taken by Americans for measuring suitability for joining an American military organization. Can you tell me about the design and contents of that exam? And how it accounts for cultural, language, and other biases?

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The obviously did not take an actual ASVAB but the average IQ for a subsaharan African if too low to join the US military. The average!

---

Meh, the school district measured my son's IQ as average. He just made a 1500 on the SAT (which disappointed him) and a 35 on the ACT. My second son, a Ukrainian immigrant, failed the ASVAB but was at the the top of his trade school class. Apparently the army has no use for 6'1" 200 lb wrestlers who can weld. My 3rd son tested at 72 IQ and is now away at college. Honestly, you might be the person who's actually dumb AF.

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134 IQ, 1480 SAT. 34 ACT. 170 LSAT. Graduated summa from UG. Cum from a T14 law school. I make a top1% income.

I think I'm good. Your kids being outliers doesn't change the value in IQ or standardized testing. And those numbers you are spouting are an outright lie or they are not trying equally on their varying testing.

And a 72 IQ is border line intellectually disabled. Almost too stupid to have to stand trial for a crime.

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This argument has been made repeatedly in trials and it has been successfully used to get the case dismissed.

A 72 IQ person would be incapable of handling a collegiate course load, end of story. In fact such a person would likely be incapable of passing anything at the high school level and likely struggle with basic every tasks like paying bills, reading, or using technology.

I don't think people truly understand just how dumb this actually is. A person with a 70 IQ is functionally incapable of any real communication with someone with an IQ of 100, much less someone with 120+.

Mega Lops said:

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Lmfao! Yall supposedly intelligent people be arguing about African intelligence showing how unintelligent you actually are by wasting time on unproductive pilpul doublespeak.

I have never understood arguing on the internet like a bunch of damn women!

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"people BE arguing"?!?!

Is this satire, bait, or are you being serious?

Reminds of an SNL skit where Ike Turner had a book titled "Woman be talking too much!"

Two interesting cultural concepts to consider here that I think explain a lot of what we're talking about on this thread:

1. Polychronic vs monochronic approach to time

2. External locus of control vs internal locus of control viewpoint

I ascribe to the Western view of the above concepts and am in no way defending their failure as a society to do …well, anything… in terms of progression, but I think it helps contextualize some things. Makes for some interesting Wiki reading anyway.

Even at 85 people normally struggle to read at a high school level.