This video describing how time is thought about in Africa makes me realize why so much of the aid done for that continent is wasted.

In short, they view time as "created by events" instead of a force of nature or a constant. So instead of saying a year is 365 days, a year is 2 dry seasons and 2 wet seasons. Instead of running a bus on schedule, you only run the bus when it fills up. Basically, they view time by looking backwards with no sense of the future. This explains a ton about why they do not do maintenance or plan for consequences of their actions. REALLY, REALLY stupid, and not something to be proud of. But I can now see why everything fails there.

No, I don't wonder why. I know why.

I'm at work and can't watch the video, but this sure sounds like excuse making for why everything in Africa is a mess. African immigrants to the US can get to work on time.

No, Sargon is not making excuses. It is a point of fascination. The fact that this has not been corrected in their thought patterns baffles me.

ETA: The person he is reacting to is very much pushing this as a cultural excuse about how their culture is superior to western culture. But this video is more of a jaw agape look into the lunacy.

I never understood why they did not use the money to move them out of the desert.

the bus example could be economic. But I do think there's a reluctance to embrace ideas that would revolutionize certain areas of the continent.

"Warlords"

Another aspect-not spoken about publicly much- is the tendency of many Africans toward non-monogamy. I have known west African men speak of their wife at home and also their children, although all the kids might not be from the wife. It isn't a stereotype and it accounts for sexually transmitted diseases/HIV transmission. It's difficult to have a high trust society with domestic arrangements like this.
Secondly is the lack of real private property rights. Tribes and governments like this because no one with independent wealth can really challenge leadership.

Well, choosing instant gratification without regard for consequences is still pervasive for descendants of the sub-Saharan peoples hundreds of years later.

I'm traveling at work right now with a Nigerian who came to the US in 1987 for college. His parents were educated in London and still live in Nigeria. He is a US citizen now.

We had a long conversation last night about how there is more diversity in Africans and African culture than there is across North America. And it's really not close. He considers many places in Africa safer than many areas here(North America). It was a very interesting conversation that was hard to argue with.

He is a Trump supporter and gun owner and is the guy that you put in stressful situations to calm things down and get back on task.

What they are describing is true in some parts of Africa that are not dependent on a clock. It was also true of Native Americans and many other current primitive cultures and because so many an Africans are only two generations or so removed from that world it can still be prevalent at times. At least that's how I understand it.

He is one of our best employees and in my career I have found African born blacks in the US to be well above the average American worker and nothing like their black American counterparts.


Edit to add-the paragraphs in that post are a bit out of order. I wrote it, left it, and came back to it.

White tried to civilized but got kicked out

Rwanda has done quite well since the genocide of 1994 (after receiving financial assistance afterward, which helped with their recovery). I visited in 2014, actually biking border-to-border. The roads were clean and safe. Little crime to speak of (I certainly always felt safe throughout). There are many genocide memorials and signs and reminders to younger people today about the atrocities. They welcome many eco-tourists. Their economy isn't western Europe, but it's certainly better than many of their neighbors. edit - and their coffee and pineapples are terrific (it's the volcanic soil like in Hawaii).

Those studies dont see the light of day.

schmellba99 said:

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No, I don't wonder why. I know why.

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Obligatory. I know we're talking sub-Saharan, but I couldn't resist.

Language warning.

Buford T. Justice said:

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I never understood why they did not use the money to move them out of the desert.

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Sam Kinison asks that question.

I first learned of this from a really good running back we had. His name was Greg Hill. He taught us about GHT. Greg Hill Time.

Adjusted for inflation I believe the number a few decades ago was 9 Marshall plans worth of money gifted to Sub Saharan Africa with little to show for it. Instead a good case could be made that the gift has set them back.

1 Marshall plan rebuilt Western Europe post WWII for those that didn't know.

It will never change.

Let me know when y'all can provide credible scientific evidence to support your position that race and genetics are responsible for different levels of intelligence. The Holiday Inn Express approach is lacking.

Shocking that rural Africans might not pass an intelligence exam designed by Americans to be taken by Americans for measuring suitability for joining an American military organization. Can you tell me about the design and contents of that exam? And how it accounts for cultural, language, and other biases?

And, while you're at it, please show me the regulation, code, rule, or anything else that sets a minimum IQ requirement for the military and how IQ is measured.

I seem to recall that you are also a veteran. If so, refresh my memory, because I don't recall taking an IQ test. Nor do the other veterans in my family.

I don't know who he is referencing, but she mentions a Kenyan philosopher from the 1960s? I don't get her point and Africans don't, AFAIK, probably know who the philosopher is.

There is an "Africa Time" in many of the places I've been. It really speaks about the lack of urgency or importance of events, more than looking backwards.

The Book of Eccliastes speaks much about the different mindset of people which resonates to me about why much of Africa is as it is.

I agree muchnof Africa is very diverse. Egypt, Morocco, Nigeria, South Africa...I haven't been to any of them but they appear to be much different... and are not like the places I've been. The places I've been are more like American's view on troubled backwards places.

The mentality is about toil and the seemingly endless plight of getting nowhere. "The wind blows East, the wind blow West, and return to the place it began."

I would ask a group of men "why do you sit under the tree all day?" "Waiting for a job, " they'd say. "If I'm not here, I might miss the man coming with a job."

Many are farmers... they toil year after year for their food. Another tribe may be ranchers with cattle. They might bring their cattle to eat the crops.

So Aid comes in... UN... US... many NGOs. They may bring food. So now the farmer says "Why toil to plant crops to eat and to sell, when I can't compete with the free food from NGOs."

As mentioned, many don't have the concept of personal property.

I've asked manynismf they would like to come to America, to see what they thought. They were nit interested to work all day.

When you look at many American youth, today... they'd rather game and get Uber Eats to feed themselves rather than toil. They speak in the same terms of time. Structured time, I agree with the video, is not something central to their daily life.

Anyway, I could go on, but it is just a different mindset.

Ecclesiastes talks to the idea of working all your life to gather great wealth... missing out on life in that pusuit... missing out on enjoying that wealth, only to leave it to someone who didn't work for it and didn't deserve it.

Oh... and corruption, envy, selfishness, pride, etc.

In fairness, most NGOs get setup to sustain themselves. If they actually fixed problems, they'd no longer be needed, so when they insert themselves they (intentionally/unintentionally create a dependency which substantiated it's expansion by saying "see how much good we are doing?"

There was a water purification system installed in a local community that cost $250k. It lasted 6 months. The people who brought it to the area didn't realize the tribe couldn't go to Wal"Mart to get new filters and so it sat and decayed.

You've heard it said "give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, teach him to fish and he'll feed himself."

It could also be said, "Give a man endless supplies of free food and he'll quickly stop working for food."

Kozmozag said:

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Those studies dont see the light of day.

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But they just gotta be out there somewhere, right??? Someday they'll find the secret chamber if they can get past the Yeti and Nessie guarding the door.

All kidding aside, the Richard Lynn study has seen the light of day, and it has been summarily been challenged, discredited, and shown to be flawed and biased.

(Enter "by those liberal hippie pseudoscientists" comments here.)

Deny. Discredit. Minimize. Justify.

95LawAg said:

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Let me know when y'all can provide credible scientific evidence to support your position that race and genetics are responsible for different levels of intelligence. The Holiday Inn Express approach is lacking.

Shocking that rural Africans might not pass an intelligence exam designed by Americans to be taken by Americans for measuring suitability for joining an American military organization. Can you tell me about the design and contents of that exam? And how it accounts for cultural, language, and other biases?

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The obviously did not take an actual ASVAB but the average IQ for a subsaharan African if too low to join the US military. The average!

Ag87H2O said:

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schmellba99 said:

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No, I don't wonder why. I know why.

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Obligatory. I know we're talking sub-Saharan, but I couldn't resist.

Language warning.

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I was coming to post this!!!

DallasAg 94 said:

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In fairness, most NGOs get setup to sustain themselves. If they actually fixed problems, they'd no longer be needed, so when they insert themselves they (intentionally/unintentionally create a dependency which substantiated it's expansion by saying "see how much good we are doing?"

There was a water purification system installed in a local community that cost $250k. It lasted 6 months. The people who brought it to the area didn't realize the tribe couldn't go to Wal"Mart to get new filters and so it sat and decayed.

You've heard it said "give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, teach him to fish and he'll feed himself."

It could also be said, "Give a man endless supplies of free food and he'll quickly stop working for food."

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You are correct and I know of a lot of examples similar to your own.

Tom's shoes is a fun one. Tom's gave away free shoes in Africa for a while. Africa had a few shoe factories but they couldn't compete with free and then Tom's stopped their promotion. Didn't help that China also stepped in a few years later further destroying any hope of making a profit on shoes.

And the locals love some corruption on top of all that.

Nothing is ever going to work in Africa.

95LawAg said:

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And, while you're at it, please show me the regulation, code, rule, or anything else that sets a minimum IQ requirement for the military and how IQ is measured.

I seem to recall that you are also a veteran. If so, refresh my memory, because I don't recall taking an IQ test. Nor do the other veterans in my family.

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Are you familiar with McNamar's Morons?

Quote:

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1995 review by Myra MacPherson in Washington Monthly of McNamara's book, In Retrospect: The Tragedy and Lessons of Vietnam, severely criticized the project, saying that "the program offered a one-way ticket to Vietnam, where these men fought and died in disproportionate numbers ... the men of the 'Moron Corps' provided the necessary cannon fodder to help evade the political horror of dropping student deferments or calling up the reserves, which were sanctuaries for the lily-white."[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_100,000#cite_note-12][12][/url]

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_100,000

95LawAg said:

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Let me know when y'all can provide credible scientific evidence to support your position that race and genetics are responsible for different levels of intelligence. The Holiday Inn Express approach is lacking.

Shocking that rural Africans might not pass an intelligence exam designed by Americans to be taken by Americans for measuring suitability for joining an American military organization. Can you tell me about the design and contents of that exam? And how it accounts for cultural, language, and other biases?

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The Bell Curve book

Do you think that all human traits are evenly and equally distributed?

I saw that video the other day, but I don't think she is convincingly making the point that this is how things are. She was more describing one philosopher's take.

If you look at the western tradition, there are many philosophers whose takes are trash.

I've worked in West Africa.

Great people, but their perspective on time is amazingly frustrating.

We were supposed to leave the hotel to drive in the country on Monday morning, which became before lunch, which became after lunch...and on and on until we finally left at Tuesday sunset. None of this bothered anyone but me.

Trucks with cotton were supposed to arrive on Wednesday afternoon. They came Saturday night.

My mother-in-law grew up in Kenya and suffers the same disregard for time. We could have a plan to leave the house at 6 to meet others for dinner and friends will show up unannounced at 5:50. Rather than saying "sorry, we have to go" or having a quick 5-10 minute visit, she will invite them in, making them tea and prepare them a light meal. We will eventually make it to dinner at 8:00, while whoever we were supposed to meet has been waiting. And she can't understand why they are upset.

Go snorkeling and the boat says be back in 45 minutes? When the horn sounds she is still swimming off the other direction, obilivious to the people waiting on the boat because "well, I saw a barracuda!" Yes, the 12th one of the day!

Coming from a family that is early to everything, it drives me nuts. And I drive her nuts, because she thinks I am being inconsiderate.

Brazil is much the same way. Someone is scheduled to pick you up at the airport at 6? They might skip it altogether because another friend invited them to watch a soccer match on TV.

It's amazing anything gets done.

What test was used to measure intelligence of that population? How was it designed to account for cultural, socioeconomic, and other factors?

Again, what is the minimum requirement for the US military? The ASVAB is not an IQ test. The AFQT is not an IQ test, but it is roughly correlated to an average intellgence range. The bottom 10% of AFQT takers are considered ineligible for military service based upon that exam. Any correlation of the results of an unrelated exam given to a group of sub-Saharan Africans to the results of a group of mostly Americans taking the ASVAB is wading far into speculative territory.

Do I disagree that individuals below a certain intelligence level aren't suitable, or even appropriate for military service? Of course not. Our military needs certain standards, and I also don't want it to be become a mechanism to dispose of low IQ members of our population.

That video talks nothing about race or genetics. So, I won't address that relative to the video.

So, moving away from the video, how does measuring a population in one part of the world (dominated by poverty, drought, disease, conflict, poor education, etc.) demonstrate a lower average IQ for the entire race? If race is the case, then middle and upper class Africans and their descendents living in places like England, Canada, Sweden, Italy, and the US with better access to education, better healthcare, less disease, less frequent war, should also test poorly on IQ exams. Otherwise, you are measuring environmental factors and not genetics or race.

So basically, they are idiots.

MasonB said:

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I've worked in West Africa.

Great people, but their perspective on time is amazingly frustrating.

We were supposed to leave the hotel to drive in the country on Monday morning, which became before lunch, which became after lunch...and on and on until we finally left at Tuesday sunset. None of this bothered anyone but me.

Trucks with cotton were supposed to arrive on Wednesday afternoon. They came Saturday night.

My mother-in-law grew up in Kenya and suffers the same disregard for time. We could have a plan to leave the house at 6 to meet others for dinner and friends will show up unannounced at 5:50. Rather than saying "sorry, we have to go" or having a quick 5-10 minute visit, she will invite them in, making them tea and prepare them a light meal. We will eventually make it to dinner at 8:00, while whoever we were supposed to meet has been waiting. And she can't understand why they are upset.

Go snorkeling and the boat says be back in 45 minutes? When the horn sounds she is still swimming off the other direction, obilivious to the people waiting on the boat because "well, I saw a barracuda!" Yes, the 12th one of the day!

Coming from a family that is early to everything, it drives me nuts. And I drive her nuts, because she thinks I am being inconsiderate.

Brazil is much the same way. Someone is scheduled to pick you up at the airport at 6? They might skip it altogether because another friend invited them to watch a soccer match on TV.

It's amazing anything gets done.

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India is the same way (IST) Indian Standard Time. Same deal got invited to go sight seeing with work people at ten. Was hungover over as hell and just didn't want to go but I had agreed. Ten turned to noon, into two, into they just never showed and stopped messaging me. At work
Monday they had just gotten busy doing something else with friends. It's maddening. Pretty sure only the west and china, Korea, and Japanese people understand the world functions better when we all use the same clock.