H-1B visa: WH clears rule to replace lottery with wage system

4,544 Views | 73 Replies | Last: 4 mo ago by IIIHorn
infinity ag
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Trump had proposed this back in 2016 but it never happened. Instead of having a lottery system and handing the visa to some basement level workers, the idea is to have companies really need them so much as to pay high wages.

Whether it works, it remains to be seen.

Most American laws are full of loopholes so the rich and powerful and exploit and get rich. Is this one among those?

Exercise: If you were an Indian outsourcing company, how would you abuse the law and exploit it? Remember that they do things legally (mostly though not always), just not ethically.


H-1B visa: White House clears rule to replace lottery with wage system
https://www.business-standard.com/immigration/h-1b-visa-white-house-clears-rule-to-replace-lottery-with-wage-system-125081200929_1.html

Quote:

US may replace the H-1B visa lottery with a wage-based system, a move that could reshape job prospects for Indians seeking work in America

Quote:

A proposed overhaul of how H-1B visas for speciality occupation workers are allocated has been approved by a key White House office, signalling it could soon be made public. The Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs cleared the measure on August 8.

US Citizenship and Immigration Services has not yet released details, but the Office of Management and Budget has sent the regulation to the agency for review. It has been classified as economically important, with a global impact, and the proposals remain unchanged from earlier drafts.

From lottery to wage-based selection

It is widely expected that the move will revive an attempt from Donald Trump's first term to replace the current random H-1B lottery with a system that ranks petitions by the wages offered.

At present, the H-1B lottery is used when applications exceed the annual cap of 85,000 visas65,000 for regular applicants and 20,000 for those with a US master's degree or higher. If applications surpass this limit, USCIS runs a computerised draw to decide who can proceed. The programme is heavily used by the technology sector.

Under a 2021 Department of Homeland Security rule, the lottery would have been replaced with wage-level selection, prioritising petitions offering the highest salaries.


I wonder who and why made it lottery/luck based. An idiot/moron could get lucky and be given a visa. How does that help America? We claim to want the brightest and the best.

Quote:

How wage levels work in US

The four tiers come from the US Department of Labor's prevailing wage levels for a given job and location:

Level 1: Entry-level pay for the position
Level 2: Qualified workers with some experience
Level 3: Experienced workers with advanced skills
Level 4: Highly specialised, senior workers

Under the 2021 plan, level 4 roles would be selected first, followed by lower levels. Fresh graduates on entry-level pay would have had far lower chances of selection.

The Trump administration argued at the time that this would attract more high-skilled workers, but business and immigration groups warned it would narrow the pool of eligible applicants . The Biden administration later withdrew the measure.


ha ha crooked companies and immigration pimps hate it. I wonder why. Gravy train leaving?

Quote:

What it could mean for Indians

If reintroduced, the rule could have far-reaching effects for Indians hoping to work in the US.

"It will almost certainly influence how Indian students and professionals plan their careers. If the system favours STEM roles, US degrees, or higher-paying jobs, we'll see a clear shift in demand toward certain academic paths, institutions, and employers," Husain Tinwala, president, upGrad Rekrut, the staffing and recruitment arm of upGrad told Business Standard.

He said career choices early on could be shaped more by visa chances than personal goals.

In the 2023 financial year, around 191,000 H-1B visas went to Indian nationals. That rose to roughly 207,000 in FY 2024, continuing India's dominance in the programme.


When Indians hate it, I know it is good for America and the fleecing will reduce. Wait.. 191k in 2023? I thought the cap was 85k??? 207k in 2024? What is going on???


Quote:

Big firms could gain, smaller ones may lose

Some industry watchers believe a wage-based system could favour established corporations.

"If the selection process prioritises employer size or wage levels, large corporations could dominate the pool. Startups and nonprofitswhich often operate on lean budgetsmay struggle to attract global talent," said Tinwala.

He warned this could affect innovation and diversity in the US workforce.

Tinwala also noted that tougher US rules may drive skilled Indians towards other countries. "Canada and parts of Europe already offer more streamlined, merit-driven immigration systems. If the US process becomes harder to predict, highly skilled talent will simply go where they feel more welcome. We already see this reflected in the hiring patterns and career preferences of our candidates," he said


I love it when Indians and other foreigners "warn" that reducing something that benefits foreigners will hurt America and they are not affected. Why not improve innovation and diversity in their own countries? Charlatans.
Then the usual threat of going somewhere else. GTFO. No one wants you here.

Get Off My Lawn
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This line seems completely backward:
Quote:

Big firms could gain, smaller ones may lose

Wouldn't it be the big firms that lose with the gutting of cheap mid-skill foreign labor? How many small businesses actually use H1Bs? It's gotta be a pain and I assume it's predominately large companies who have the scale to see benefit from mechanizing the hiring of foreigners.
samurai_science
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Diversity in the workplace is overrated
IDaggie06
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samurai_science said:

Diversity in the workplace is overrated

Diversity is overrated
TRM
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Why do we want to give the jobs with higher wages to foreigners, especially when companies are laying off American employees?

They should consider # of Americans that can fill the role along with the delta between the American salary and the H1B worker salary
Logos Stick
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Good, this will kill the Indian outsourcers!
javajaws
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Would be an improvement but I doubt this will fix much. It sounds like they'll reward based on tier and not so much on dollar value - so they'll probably just re-classify what job it is. As an example a level 4 Computer Programmer in Austin is $114k while a Software Developer is $164k.
infinity ag
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Get Off My Lawn said:

This line seems completely backward:
Quote:

Big firms could gain, smaller ones may lose

Wouldn't it be the big firms that lose with the gutting of cheap mid-skill foreign labor? How many small businesses actually use H1Bs? It's gotta be a pain and I assume it's predominately large companies who have the scale to see benefit from mechanizing the hiring of foreigners.


Yes, the sentence seems weird.

Big firms like Amazon use them a lot. They will suffer as they don't have as many slaves to work at cheap wages which undercut Americans. They only can afford the really good ones and are okay paying for them (which they could do earlier also). So big firms overall lose.

The smaller ones will lose as they cannot afford the higher threshold of wages, so no H1B slaves at all. Earlier they could afford a few here and there. Small firms also lose.

samurai_science
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This is a step in the right direction
infinity ag
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IDaggie06 said:

samurai_science said:

Diversity in the workplace is overrated

Diversity is overrated


Pick the best man (or woman) for the job. Why should diversity even matter if the selection is impartial? Shoehorning anyone in is always a bad idea. I have no problem working in a team of all whites, or all blacks or all women or all latinos if that is the best possible team.
infinity ag
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javajaws said:

Would be an improvement but I doubt this will fix much. It sounds like they'll reward based on tier and not so much on dollar value - so they'll probably just re-classify what job it is. As an example a level 4 Computer Programmer in Austin is $114k while a Software Developer is $164k.


I think it is region based also. 250k is not a lot in the Bay Area but it is a lot in Lexington, KY for example. So salary will./should be adjusted.

There will be loopholes and Indian companies will be the first to find them and exploit. Let's see if Trump can punish them. If I try to cheat IRS, I go to jail. No reason why these cos get away.
infinity ag
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Someone sent me this from an Indian analyst. He has a balanced take, even acknowledges the abuse by Indian companies.


Logos Stick
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TRM said:

Why do we want to give the jobs with higher wages to foreigners, especially when companies are laying off American employees?

They should consider # of Americans that can fill the role along with the delta between the American salary and the H1B worker salary



Since its based on wage level, they probably won't unless they simply can't fill the role skill wise without the H1B person. It tales away the cost advantage.
Logos Stick
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javajaws said:

Would be an improvement but I doubt this will fix much. It sounds like they'll reward based on tier and not so much on dollar value - so they'll probably just re-classify what job it is. As an example a level 4 Computer Programmer in Austin is $114k while a Software Developer is $164k.


Explain what you mean by that. The tiers are based on dollar value. The experts project it will decrease Indian national H1Bs by as much as 75%.
ChemAg15
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TRM said:

Why do we want to give the jobs with higher wages to foreigners, especially when companies are laying off American employees?

They should consider # of Americans that can fill the role along with the delta between the American salary and the H1B worker salary

I think the fact that companies can win a lottery and hire a foreigner at a lower salary vs an American citizen is the issue. Now that companies will have to compete with each other to higher these foreigners, it will drive the foreigner salaries up and Americans will be more able to compete for the same jobs. Companies want to hire the cheapest labor. Now they won't be able to hire foreigners on the cheap.
infinity ag
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TRM said:

Why do we want to give the jobs with higher wages to foreigners, especially when companies are laying off American employees?

They should consider # of Americans that can fill the role along with the delta between the American salary and the H1B worker salary


This is one of those times when we need someone really smart from overseas for a job we cannot do here. Like maybe some AI innovation.

Like this Indian dude called Ashish Vaswani. He has a PhD from USC and wrote the paper that started the Generative AI revolution which ChatGPT and others are based on.
He deserves a visa!

His research paper: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attention_Is_All_You_Need
https://arxiv.org/abs/1706.03762

I tried hard, I could not understand it well enough. Pretty complex. Have to try harder.

infinity ag
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I was shocked to see this.

Quote:

In the 2023 financial year, around 191,000 H-1B visas went to Indian nationals. That rose to roughly 207,000 in FY 2024, continuing India's dominance in the programme.


191k? 207k?

Were we lied to about 85k??
BusterAg
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IDaggie06 said:

samurai_science said:

Diversity in the workplace is overrated

Diversity is overrated

Diversity of thought is not really overrated. Considering a lot of different perspectives when making decisions is often helpful.

Focusing on racial diversity is very, very stupid 99% of the time.

What is funny is that Dems love racial diversity, and hate diversity of thought.

The only time racial diversity might be helpful is in situations like police forces and firefighters. Generally, people are a little racist, and more comfortable dealing with people of their own race. It's just genetic, part of the human condition. We are built to be tribal animals, for whatever reason.

Because of that, it is helpful to have a few people of diverse backgrounds around to help deal with racist people who still really deserve help sometimes. The Dems perpetrating racism by always viewing the world through a racial lens first, before considering any other facets of an issue, doesn't help the situation.
It takes a special kind of brainwashed useful idiot to politically defend government fraud, waste, and abuse.
Deerdude
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What level is convenience store clerk?
Keyno
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It's crazy how bad Trump shifted his H1B position since 2016.
torrid
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By demanding PhDs for design work, my company hires almost exclusively H-1Bs. Quite frankly, I might be out of a job without it. But it isn't really a requirement for the work, they just don't want to invest in developing talent in-house.
torrid
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infinity ag said:

TRM said:

Why do we want to give the jobs with higher wages to foreigners, especially when companies are laying off American employees?

They should consider # of Americans that can fill the role along with the delta between the American salary and the H1B worker salary


This is one of those times when we need someone really smart from overseas for a job we cannot do here. Like maybe some AI innovation.

Like this Indian dude called Ashish Vaswani. He has a PhD from USC and wrote the paper that started the Generative AI revolution which ChatGPT and others are based on.
He deserves a visa!

His research paper: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attention_Is_All_You_Need
https://arxiv.org/abs/1706.03762

I tried hard, I could not understand it well enough. Pretty complex. Have to try harder.




But he is the exception. A Indian graduate of a STEM diploma mill can still get an H-1B.
samurai_science
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Keyno said:

It's crazy how bad Trump shifted his H1B position since 2016.

Its good to change your position on an issue when you get better information. Good Trump, hopefully he goes even further to stop the corruption.
Keyno
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samurai_science said:

Keyno said:

It's crazy how bad Trump shifted his H1B position since 2016.

Its good to change your position on an issue when you get better information. Good Trump, hopefully he goes even further to stop the corruption.

"I know the H-1B very well. And it's something that I, frankly, use, and I shouldn't be allowed to use it. We shouldn't have it. Very, very bad for workers. And second of all, I think it's very important to say, well, I'm a businessman and I have to do what I have to do. When it's sitting there waiting for you, but it's very bad. It's very bad for business in terms of and it's very bad for our workers and it's unfair for our workers. And we should end it."
Donald J. Trump, CNN Debate, March 10, 2016
samurai_science
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Keyno said:

samurai_science said:

Keyno said:

It's crazy how bad Trump shifted his H1B position since 2016.

Its good to change your position on an issue when you get better information. Good Trump, hopefully he goes even further to stop the corruption.

"I know the H-1B very well. And it's something that I, frankly, use, and I shouldn't be allowed to use it. We shouldn't have it. Very, very bad for workers […] It's very bad for business in terms of and it's very bad for our workers and it's unfair for our workers. And we should end it."
Donald J. Trump, CNN Debate, March 10, 2016

Going from Lottery to this is a good change, not sure what the issue is.
Keyno
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samurai_science said:

Keyno said:

samurai_science said:

Keyno said:

It's crazy how bad Trump shifted his H1B position since 2016.

Its good to change your position on an issue when you get better information. Good Trump, hopefully he goes even further to stop the corruption.

"I know the H-1B very well. And it's something that I, frankly, use, and I shouldn't be allowed to use it. We shouldn't have it. Very, very bad for workers […] It's very bad for business in terms of and it's very bad for our workers and it's unfair for our workers. And we should end it."
Donald J. Trump, CNN Debate, March 10, 2016

Going from Lottery to this is a good change, not sure what the issue is.

Yeah I'm speaking of his original position of ending it entirely haha
Over_ed
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infinity ag said:

I was shocked to see this.

Quote:

In the 2023 financial year, around 191,000 H-1B visas went to Indian nationals. That rose to roughly 207,000 in FY 2024, continuing India's dominance in the programme.


191k? 207k?

Were we lied to about 85k??

New, each year...

They last for more than a year, almost always,
infinity ag
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Keyno said:

It's crazy how bad Trump shifted his H1B position since 2016.


I saw your subsequent post with the quote.

I think what Trump means is that as a businessman he used H1B as that was the right thing as a businessman. I get it.
As a national leader, he also says it is hurting America long term. So as a President he is against it. Makes sense.

Now I personally do the same. I am primarily an investor and I make most of my money investing, not in a job. H1B update will hurt my IRA and 401k, but help my countrymen and women, my kids and future grandkids. Having H1B makes me more money as corporations show better results (though undeserved). I prefer giving up big gains so we have a future.

So infinity ag as an investor and infinity ag as an American citizen have different opinions.
infinity ag
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Over_ed said:

infinity ag said:

I was shocked to see this.

Quote:

In the 2023 financial year, around 191,000 H-1B visas went to Indian nationals. That rose to roughly 207,000 in FY 2024, continuing India's dominance in the programme.


191k? 207k?

Were we lied to about 85k??

New, each year...

They last for more than a year, almost always,


I still don't get it.

I thought there were 85k new each year, that is it.
Does 191k mean new plus renewals of old H1Bs?

That makes things a lot worse. They have been misleading us with 85k. The compounding effect will be that it will be a million and 5 million in due course.


flown-the-coop
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They mean Trump did something and it's bad cause all things Trump or bad.
infinity ag
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Keyno said:

samurai_science said:

Keyno said:

samurai_science said:

Keyno said:

It's crazy how bad Trump shifted his H1B position since 2016.

Its good to change your position on an issue when you get better information. Good Trump, hopefully he goes even further to stop the corruption.

"I know the H-1B very well. And it's something that I, frankly, use, and I shouldn't be allowed to use it. We shouldn't have it. Very, very bad for workers […] It's very bad for business in terms of and it's very bad for our workers and it's unfair for our workers. And we should end it."
Donald J. Trump, CNN Debate, March 10, 2016

Going from Lottery to this is a good change, not sure what the issue is.

Yeah I'm speaking of his original position of ending it entirely haha


I would have loved for him to completely end it. And start a new program that lets in people like that Ashish chap. If you do a grad degree from an accredited US univ (not crap ones), you get an H1B is something I am okay with. That way Indian companies cannot pick people off the street and ship them to the US on "project" anymore.
chiphijason
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Canada and parts of Europe already offer more streamlined, merit-driven immigration systems

This is the quote from above. I'd this is what we had instead of whoever decides to walk here immigration would be a non issue.
Keyno
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infinity ag said:

Keyno said:

It's crazy how bad Trump shifted his H1B position since 2016.


I saw your subsequent post with the quote.

I think what Trump means is that as a businessman he used H1B as that was the right thing as a businessman. I get it.
As a national leader, he also says it is hurting America long term. So as a President he is against it. Makes sense.

Now I personally do the same. I am primarily an investor and I make most of my money investing, not in a job. H1B update will hurt my IRA and 401k, but help my countrymen and women, my kids and future grandkids. Having H1B makes me more money as corporations show better results (though undeserved). I prefer giving up big gains so we have a future.

So infinity ag as an investor and infinity ag as an American citizen have different opinions.

I appreciate what you are saying. In 2016, Trump actually was an independent (with a nationalist message) running as a republican. Since then, he has become a boilerplate republican. Republicans LOVE h1b because big corporations are one of their primary constituents.
RAB87
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IDaggie06 said:

samurai_science said:

Diversity in the workplace is overrated

Diversity is overrated
There is no evidence that diversity produces better results. The is plenty of evidence that societies and organizations with common culture and values produce better results.
infinity ag
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Keyno said:

infinity ag said:

Keyno said:

It's crazy how bad Trump shifted his H1B position since 2016.


I saw your subsequent post with the quote.

I think what Trump means is that as a businessman he used H1B as that was the right thing as a businessman. I get it.
As a national leader, he also says it is hurting America long term. So as a President he is against it. Makes sense.

Now I personally do the same. I am primarily an investor and I make most of my money investing, not in a job. H1B update will hurt my IRA and 401k, but help my countrymen and women, my kids and future grandkids. Having H1B makes me more money as corporations show better results (though undeserved). I prefer giving up big gains so we have a future.

So infinity ag as an investor and infinity ag as an American citizen have different opinions.

I appreciate what you are saying. In 2016, Trump actually was an independent (with a nationalist message) running as a republican. Since then, he has become a boilerplate republican. Republicans LOVE h1b because big corporations are one of their primary constituents.


Hmm you make a good point. I can't disagree.
Maybe things changed before and in power. Let's watch.
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