Mahmoud Decision (Religious Opt-Outs)

8,265 Views | 107 Replies | Last: 5 mo ago by agent-maroon
Ryan the Temp
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I've spent the better part of the day since the Mahmoud opinion was released talking a bunch of my LGBT friends off the ledge about the Mahmoud opinion. I thought it was worthy of a separate thread here because it's an interesting case where many folks who disagree with the opinion view it as an apocalyptic result and many who agree view it as a dunk on LGBT people.

The ruling, in my opinion, is neither, and to be quite honest, I was a bit surprised the ruling was not 9-0.

The fundamental issue here was the school district had a long-standing, broad policy of religious accommodation in schools. However, when it came to LGBT subject matter in curriculum, the district explicitly chose to exempt said material from the religious accommodations policy. The district made a point that the timing of such material being introduced into the classroom would not be announced in advance, attendance on those class days was mandatory for all students, and parents were prohibited from opting their kids out of that curriculum. The approach was designed to ensure students would be subjected to curriculum that may be counter to their sincerely-held religious beliefs.

More succinctly, the district was violating its own religious accommodation policy.

It's been a little more than 20 years since I spent a lot of time studying constitutional law, but one case in particular stood out to me when I was thinking about this case - Wisconsin v. Yoder, 406 U.S. 205 (1972). In Wisconsin v. Yoder, the court held that Wisconsin's law requiring students to attend 12 years of public schooling violated the religious rights of Amish people who chose to remove their children from public schools after 8th grade. Yes, parents could opt their children out of ALL public education based solely on their religious beliefs.

It stands to reason, then, in light of Wisconsin v. Yoder, that parents should be equally entitled to opt out of certain educational matter on religious grounds and the precedent set by that case remains intact. I was not at all surprised to see Alito cite the case in the first paragraph of his opinion because it seems to be the strongest guiding force when balancing educational laws and requirements against First Amendment-protected religious beliefs.

What I'm seeing is some of those in disagreement incorrectly believe this ruling requires schools to ban LGBT subject matter from curriculum or even any mention of it by anyone while in a school. One comment a friend made to me was that his son would be prohibited from even mentioning his family, lest the school notify all parents his son wanted to mention his family and allow those parents to remove their children from school while his son spoke. Not only is that claim patently absurd, this ruling does not require schools to stop offering LGBT subject matter as part of its curriculum or prohibit students from talking about it. That's also the part that means this ruling isn't some massive victory against the "Alphabet Mafia."

Now I'm not an attorney, but my reading of the opinion appears to simply say the school cannot prohibit religious accommodation on any one single piece of subject matter, and ultimately places the burden to opt out on the parents or student who objects to the subject matter.

The thing I have had to explain to my friends today is that we can disagree with the religious beliefs of those parents all day long; we can think their decisions are ill-advised; we can think their decisions short-change their kids' ability to function effectively in a society where they may encounter LGBT people, but it remains the constitutional right of those parents to raise their children as they see fit, provided it does not harm or otherwise violate the rights of others.

tldr version: Mahmoud is a constitutionally sound ruling based in 53 years of precedent.
TxSquarebody
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The problem with those opposed is that it removes forced participation. That's something the entire LGBTQO+++ crowd hates. Foe the movement as a whole, it isn't enough to exist, your participation is required.
Ryan the Temp
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TxSquarebody said:

The problem with those opposed is that it removes forced participation. That's something the entire LGBTQO+++ crowd hates. Foe the movement as a whole, it isn't enough to exist, your participation is required.
Not so much. Even Lambda Legal, which has handled most of the major LGBT cases in recent years, had a very measured response to the ruling that did not claim it was wrongly decided or harmed LGBT people in any way.

I'll grant you there are some folks who see every decision like this as the end of the world, but many of us do view it in very rational terms on the merits of the case.
TacosaurusRex
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Ryan the Temp said:

I've spent the better part of the day since the Mahmoud opinion was released talking a bunch of my LGBT friends off the ledge about the Mahmoud opinion. I thought it was worthy of a separate thread here because it's an interesting case where many folks who disagree with the opinion view it as an apocalyptic result and many who agree view it as a dunk on LGBT people.

The ruling, in my opinion, is neither, and to be quite honest, I was a bit surprised the ruling was not 9-0.

The fundamental issue here was the school district had a long-standing, broad policy of religious accommodation in schools. However, when it came to LGBT subject matter in curriculum, the district explicitly chose to exempt said material from the religious accommodations policy. The district made a point that the timing of such material being introduced into the classroom would not be announced in advance, attendance on those class days was mandatory for all students, and parents were prohibited from opting their kids out of that curriculum. The approach was designed to ensure students would be subjected to curriculum that may be counter to their sincerely-held religious beliefs.

More succinctly, the district was violating its own religious accommodation policy.

It's been a little more than 20 years since I spent a lot of time studying constitutional law, but one case in particular stood out to me when I was thinking about this case - Wisconsin v. Yoder, 406 U.S. 205 (1972). In Wisconsin v. Yoder, the court held that Wisconsin's law requiring students to attend 12 years of public schooling violated the religious rights of Amish people who chose to remove their children from public schools after 8th grade. Yes, parents could opt their children out of ALL public education based solely on their religious beliefs.

It stands to reason, then, in light of Wisconsin v. Yoder, that parents should be equally entitled to opt out of certain educational matter on religious grounds and the precedent set by that case remains intact. I was not at all surprised to see Alito cite the case in the first paragraph of his opinion because it seems to be the strongest guiding force when balancing educational laws and requirements against First Amendment-protected religious beliefs.

What I'm seeing is some of those in disagreement incorrectly believe this ruling requires schools to ban LGBT subject matter from curriculum or even any mention of it by anyone while in a school. One comment a friend made to me was that his son would be prohibited from even mentioning his family, lest the school notify all parents his sone wanted to mention his family and allow those parents to remove their children from school while his son spoke. Not only is that claim patently absurd, this ruling does not require schools to stop offering LGBT subject matter as part of its curriculum or prohibit students from talking about it. That's also the part that means this ruling isn't some massive victory against the "Alphabet Mafia."

Now I'm not an attorney, but my reading of the opinion appears simply say the school cannot prohibit religious accommodation on any one single piece of subject matter, and ultimately places the burden to opt out on the parents or student who objects to the subject matter.

The thing I have had to explain to my friends today is that we can disagree with the religious beliefs of those parents all day long; we can think their decisions are ill-advised; we can think their decisions short-change their kids' ability to function effectively in a society where they may encounter LGBT people, but it remains the constitutional right of those parents to raise their children as they see fit, provided it does not harm or otherwise violate the rights of others.

tldr version: Mahmoud is a constitutionally sound ruling based in 53 years of precedent.
Why do straight people need to learn to function in a society with gay people? Why is it any different than any other human interaction? Gay people aren't special, they're just gay.
"If you are reading this, I have passed on from this world — not as big a deal for you as it was for me."
T. Boone Pickens
Sid Farkas
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Legacy media will intentionally misinterpret the result for the purpose of inflaming emotions about the conservative court.
Ryan the Temp
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Sid Farkas said:

Legacy media will intentionally misinterpret the result for the purpose of inflaming emotions about the conservative court.
And that's one reason why it's important to talk about Wisconsin v. Yoder in these discussions. No one should have been surprised by this decsion.
BusterAg
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Quote:

That's also the part that means this ruling isn't some massive victory against the "Alphabet Mafia."
I disagree with this.

It is a huge victory against the Alphabet Mafia.

It just isn't any kind of victory against gay people or people with other than heterosexual viewpoints.

These two groups of people are distinct.

Everyone should dislike the Alphabet Mafia, who want to force their beliefs on everyone.

Based on your analysis, I wouldn't put yourself in that category. But, not a good idea to defend them.
It takes a special kind of brainwashed useful idiot to politically defend government fraud, waste, and abuse.
Ryan the Temp
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Quote:

Why do straight people need to learn to function in a society with gay people? Why is it any different than any other human interaction? Gay people aren't special, they're just gay.
I'm not saying the kids need to be taught the secret handshake or anything like that, but believe it or not, there are parents out their who don't want their kids to know gay people even exist. That's the sort of thing I'm referring to.

nortex97
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More to the point, young kids don't need to be forcibly exposed to obscene pornographic gay books and indoctrination to learn to interact in society with gay people as adults.

Montgomery County had previously allowed parents to opt out and then decided that was too large a burden on the school system, one of the wealthiest in the country, which is run by communists oh btw.
TacosaurusRex
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Ryan the Temp said:

Quote:

Why do straight people need to learn to function in a society with gay people? Why is it any different than any other human interaction? Gay people aren't special, they're just gay.
I'm not saying the kids need to be taught the secret handshake or anything like that, but believe it or not, there are parents out their who don't want their kids to know gay people even exist. That's the sort of thing I'm referring to.


That makes sense. The people on the extremes are the biggest roadblocks to commonsense for the rest of us.

ETA: I know you don't care about some random guys opinion, but this is where I think pride month and all the parades create more problems than they have solved. That goes past showing people it is ok and goes right to forcibly in your face. Then when books are published "for kids" that any reasonable adult would say it is not ok for children and trying to get those into the curriculum was a massive mistake.
"If you are reading this, I have passed on from this world — not as big a deal for you as it was for me."
T. Boone Pickens
Ryan the Temp
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nortex97 said:

Montgomery County had previously allowed parents to opt out and then decided that was too large a burden on the school system
Yet allowing any other religious accommodation was not too large a burden. This was a loser for Montgomery County before it ever got off the ground.
astros4545
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Ryan the Temp said:

Quote:

Why do straight people need to learn to function in a society with gay people? Why is it any different than any other human interaction? Gay people aren't special, they're just gay.
I'm not saying the kids need to be taught the secret handshake or anything like that, but believe it or not, there are parents out their who don't want their kids to know gay people even exist. That's the sort of thing I'm referring to.


m

But why does it matter

Most kindergarten don't know that sex exists
Who?mikejones!
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I listened to the arguments live and generally had the same takeaway.

The issue was the district wasn't being consistent on opt outs and couldn't provide a sufficient reason why the lgbtq course shouldn't be open to opt outs.

The district was pretty much participating in indoctrination and wasn't necessarily trying to hide it

I do think it's a bigger hit the the lgbtq movement than it seems. Schools are a primary driver of forcing this issues onto impressionable kids outside of the parents purview.

There's also a chance this rulingn leads to a little chaos as groups attempt to opt out pf otherwise benign lessons.
nortex97
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astros4545 said:

Ryan the Temp said:

Quote:

Why do straight people need to learn to function in a society with gay people? Why is it any different than any other human interaction? Gay people aren't special, they're just gay.
I'm not saying the kids need to be taught the secret handshake or anything like that, but believe it or not, there are parents out their who don't want their kids to know gay people even exist. That's the sort of thing I'm referring to.


m

But why does it matter

Most kindergarten don't know that sex exists
The gay lobby has an incredible drive to proselytize to kids. That's why. Part of it I suspect is to be able to brag to others (adults) that they have taken various actions to 'educate' and 'normalize' acceptance of their religion/dogma/practices etc. It's akin to going to church on Sunday and taking part in the sacraments, in many ways (and the takeover of the mainline Protestant denominations sort of reflects this).
American Hardwood
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If the objective for the alphabet crowd was to not be mistreated and coexist with the normies, they wouldn't be trying to force the lifestyle down everyone's throat. The fact that they do, tells you that coexisting isn't the objective. They want special privilege.
The best way to keep evil men from wielding great power is to not create great power in the first place.
Silent For Too Long
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Ryan the Temp said:

Quote:

Why do straight people need to learn to function in a society with gay people? Why is it any different than any other human interaction? Gay people aren't special, they're just gay.
I'm not saying the kids need to be taught the secret handshake or anything like that, but believe it or not, there are parents out their who don't want their kids to know gay people even exist. That's the sort of thing I'm referring to.




It's 2025. Every single show or movie that has been released in the last 15 years has had at least one gay person.

When my son was in elementary school (in Fort Bend county) there was a fad to claim to be gay for the fun of it.

Times have changed.
Ryan the Temp
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BusterAg said:

Quote:

That's also the part that means this ruling isn't some massive victory against the "Alphabet Mafia."
I disagree with this.

It is a huge victory against the Alphabet Mafia.

It just isn't any kind of victory against gay people or people with other than heterosexual viewpoints.

These two groups of people are distinct.

Everyone should dislike the Alphabet Mafia, who want to force their beliefs on everyone.

Based on your analysis, I wouldn't put yourself in that category. But, not a good idea to defend them.
I completely understand where you're coming from, and if some folks view it as a major victory, then I'm glad they will sleep well tonight. There was a time when I did public policy work that would have had y'all branding me as the Alphabet Mafia, but the one guiding principal I always held close was that of mutual respect in society. That is to say, there should always be a way to achieve many of our goals for society while maintaining respect for those with other goals and opinions. I wish that principal was more important to people in public discourse today.
javajaws
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No real surprise - the average person (on both sides) don't really know what's ACTUALLY being determined in these cases. They just react based on social media reposts of reposts of incorrect/incomplete/inaccurate summarizations. Often times such original info is PURPOSEFULLY put out to overly politicize something with inaccuracies in order to shape public opinion in their favor without respect to facts. Its basically mob rule on the public opinion front - facts and laws don't really matter to these people.
Claude!
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I think it's a reasonably sound decision that the district brought on itself. They can't pick and choose where religious accommodations apply, and I don't think the burden imposed on the district by offering such accommodations overcomes any sort of exception.

And to RTT's point, this ruling doesn't "erase gay people" or anything like that. It allows parents to opt out of specific curriculum they don't want their children being exposed to. I remember a gal getting excused from my middle school human reproduction lesson because her folks didn't want her in it.

I would also posit that this doesn't exclude gays from the curriculum. A teacher could potentially write word problems in math that included homosexuals, I.e., "Adam and Steve want to invite friends to their wedding. If Adam has 15 friends and Steve has 17, how many friends are they inviting to their wedding?"
American Hardwood
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Ryan the Temp said:

Quote:

Why do straight people need to learn to function in a society with gay people? Why is it any different than any other human interaction? Gay people aren't special, they're just gay.
I'm not saying the kids need to be taught the secret handshake or anything like that, but believe it or not, there are parents out their who don't want their kids to know gay people even exist. That's the sort of thing I'm referring to.


There are parents out there that don't want their kids to know about pedophilia, drug use, murders on the streets, suicide, and a whole host of things that kids shouldn't be exposed to when they are too young to be able to process the information maturely. This is called parental judgment, and it is a foundational element in forming adults out of children.

We would all be better off just adhering to Christian principles of treating people with goodwill. Gays included.
The best way to keep evil men from wielding great power is to not create great power in the first place.
Backyard Gator
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Ryan the Temp said:

Quote:

Why do straight people need to learn to function in a society with gay people? Why is it any different than any other human interaction? Gay people aren't special, they're just gay.
I'm not saying the kids need to be taught the secret handshake or anything like that, but believe it or not, there are parents out their who don't want their kids to know gay people even exist. That's the sort of thing I'm referring to.


And why does that concern you?

There are people all over the world ignorant to the existence of mundane details in the lives of other people, why does what you do in your bedroom matter so damn much?

Other than the fact that some gay people consider their sexual preference their whole personality, I am mystified by their need for attention/acknowledgment/validation.
Backyard Gator
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TxSquarebody said:

The problem with those opposed is that it removes forced participation. That's something the entire LGBTQO+++ crowd hates. Foe the movement as a whole, it isn't enough to exist, your participation is required.
Not just forced participation, forced acceptance.

When confronted with something we're unfamiliar with, we usually move from rejection to tolerance to acceptance. I think the vast, vast majority of people are perfectly fine tolerating LGBQ people, the reversal of DOMA is proof of that. "We don't care who you marry, live your life."

But then you had the extremists move in and take over, tolerance wasn't enough, tolerance is HATE now, acceptance is the only option. Acceptance is demanded!! And if you don't automatically accept their dogma, you're a phobe or an ist or some other type of insult.
Ryan the Temp
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Backyard Gator said:

Ryan the Temp said:

Quote:

Why do straight people need to learn to function in a society with gay people? Why is it any different than any other human interaction? Gay people aren't special, they're just gay.
I'm not saying the kids need to be taught the secret handshake or anything like that, but believe it or not, there are parents out their who don't want their kids to know gay people even exist. That's the sort of thing I'm referring to.


And why does that concern you?

There are people all over the world ignorant to the existence of mundane details in the lives of other people, why does what you do in your bedroom matter so damn much?

Other than the fact that some gay people consider their sexual preference their whole personality, I am mystified by their need for attention/acknowledgment/validation.
I'm only stating it as a known fact. It has no effect on my personal life at all.

I don't know what your youth was like, but I recall encountering people we called "sheltered" whose parents tried to keep locked away from society who always had some level of difficulty interacting with people once they got out into the world.
Detmersdislocatedshoulder
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TxSquarebody said:

The problem with those opposed is that it removes forced participation. That's something the entire LGBTQO+++ crowd hates. Foe the movement as a whole, it isn't enough to exist, your participation is required.


and then approval. they always have to have approval of their sinful nature.
samurai_science
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Ryan the Temp said:

Backyard Gator said:

Ryan the Temp said:

Quote:

Why do straight people need to learn to function in a society with gay people? Why is it any different than any other human interaction? Gay people aren't special, they're just gay.
I'm not saying the kids need to be taught the secret handshake or anything like that, but believe it or not, there are parents out their who don't want their kids to know gay people even exist. That's the sort of thing I'm referring to.


And why does that concern you?

There are people all over the world ignorant to the existence of mundane details in the lives of other people, why does what you do in your bedroom matter so damn much?

Other than the fact that some gay people consider their sexual preference their whole personality, I am mystified by their need for attention/acknowledgment/validation.
I'm only stating it as a known fact. It has no effect on my personal life at all.

I don't know what your youth was like, but I recall encountering people we called "sheltered" whose parents tried to keep locked away from society who always had some level of difficulty interacting with people once they got out into the world.
That ancedote is meaningless because we have plenty of people who have not been locked away and cant interact with people.

El Gallo Blanco
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Ryan the Temp said:

Quote:

Why do straight people need to learn to function in a society with gay people? Why is it any different than any other human interaction? Gay people aren't special, they're just gay.
I'm not saying the kids need to be taught the secret handshake or anything like that, but believe it or not, there are parents out their who don't want their kids to know gay people even exist. That's the sort of thing I'm referring to.
What is wrong with not even wanting or expecting a 5 or 6 yr old to even grasp the concept of hetero vs homosexual? Can't we just teach them to love everyone and be kind to all?

I don't feel some weird duty to teach my daughter about swingers or their lifestyle, or polygamists.

Can we just let them keep their innocence for a few years? I'll be honest, I don't want my daughter thinking two men or women having sex or romantic relationships is normal, or that it's normal to be trans, or to be a swinger, or participate in orgies etc. But I will teach her to be kind to people, even if they may be sexual deviants.
Ryan the Temp
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I'm just citing a narrow handful of examples, not an exhaustive list of sociological scenarios that make people weird.
Ryan the Temp
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Quote:

I don't feel some weird duty to teach my daughter about swingers or their lifestyle, or polygamists.
Please share with us which school(s)/district(s) has this as part of their curriculum. ETA: I'll be happy to write a letter to them to express my disapproval.
TacosaurusRex
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Ryan the Temp said:

Quote:

I don't feel some weird duty to teach my daughter about swingers or their lifestyle, or polygamists.
Please share with us which school(s)/district(s) has this as part of their curriculum.
I think you made his point for him... there isn't. Which is why people do not understand the need for gay curriculum, but maybe I am not reading this interaction correctly?
"If you are reading this, I have passed on from this world — not as big a deal for you as it was for me."
T. Boone Pickens
captkirk
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LGBTQ fatigue is real
captkirk
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TacosaurusRex said:

Ryan the Temp said:

Quote:

I don't feel some weird duty to teach my daughter about swingers or their lifestyle, or polygamists.
Please share with us which school(s)/district(s) has this as part of their curriculum.
I think you made his point for him... there isn't. Which is why people do not understand the need for gay curriculum, but maybe I am not reading this interaction correctly?
Bingo. Why prioritize coursework on a certain set of sexual preferences, but not others?
BadMoonRisin
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The point was clearly that he didn't want a school teaching his daughter about people's sexual preferences.
BusterAg
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Ryan the Temp said:

BusterAg said:

Quote:

That's also the part that means this ruling isn't some massive victory against the "Alphabet Mafia."
I disagree with this.

It is a huge victory against the Alphabet Mafia.

It just isn't any kind of victory against gay people or people with other than heterosexual viewpoints.

These two groups of people are distinct.

Everyone should dislike the Alphabet Mafia, who want to force their beliefs on everyone.

Based on your analysis, I wouldn't put yourself in that category. But, not a good idea to defend them.
I completely understand where you're coming from, and if some folks view it as a major victory, then I'm glad they will sleep well tonight. There was a time when I did public policy work that would have had y'all branding me as the Alphabet Mafia, but the one guiding principal I always held close was that of mutual respect in society. That is to say, there should always be a way to achieve many of our goals for society while maintaining respect for those with other goals and opinions. I wish that principal was more important to people in public discourse today.
Well, I am just fine with letting people do in their bedrooms whatever they want. Those aren't the people I have a problem with.

The people I have a problem with are those that want to forcibly expose children that are too young to think about sex stuff to sex stuff. There are a lot of people that really, really want to do that. I dislike those people, whether they are gay or not. I generally support people that will defend my right to raise my kids the way that I believe I should related to sex stuff, whether those people are gay or not.

Maybe you used to be in the former camp, I don't know, but my position hasn't changed.
It takes a special kind of brainwashed useful idiot to politically defend government fraud, waste, and abuse.
Rapier108
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Detmersdislocatedshoulder said:

TxSquarebody said:

The problem with those opposed is that it removes forced participation. That's something the entire LGBTQO+++ crowd hates. Foe the movement as a whole, it isn't enough to exist, your participation is required.


and then approval. they always have to have approval of their sinful nature.
Not just approval, forced affirmation.

Eventually some would push so far as to demand that anyone refusing the romantic/sexual advances of someone based on the sex of the person (or the person being "trans") would constitute a hate crime.
"If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without blood shed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves." - Sir Winston Churchill
Ryan the Temp
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TacosaurusRex said:

Ryan the Temp said:

Quote:

I don't feel some weird duty to teach my daughter about swingers or their lifestyle, or polygamists.
Please share with us which school(s)/district(s) has this as part of their curriculum.
I think you made his point for him... there isn't. Which is why people do not understand the need for gay curriculum, but maybe I am not reading this interaction correctly?
Exactly. There isn't, but all too often we see people claim on this board that it is occurring. Curriculum that includes LGBT subject matter overwhelmingly falls into a handful of categories:
  • Gay people exist in society (i.e. stories that teach a lesson that happen to involve gay people)
  • Bona fide sex education
  • Notable historical figures who happen to be gay

That being said, there are folks who believe even the mere mention of anything within that real is "overtly sexual" or "pornographic" and "focuses on what gays do in their bedroom." Some people believe there's nothing wrong with a heterosexual teacher having a photo of their spouse on their desk, while simultaneously believe a gay teacher having a photo of their spouse on their desk is "sexual perversion" or "grooming." These are the sorts of arguments that aren't even worth having because no one is going to change their mind when it devolves to extremes like that.

But these sort of extreme mischaracterization aren't what this thread is about, anyway.
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