Ag87H2O said:

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Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

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Many people are starting to realize Phonics is how you teach reading and are going back to it. They never should have left but Big Education convinced them to buy their systems.

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Yep, and it was a big lie. Phonics was the tried and true method for teaching reading for decades until academia decided they knew better and started using the whole language model.

It's like Reagan used to say, "The trouble with our liberal friends isn't that they're ignorant, it's that they know so much that isn't so."

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This was the straw that broke the camel's back for us to start home schooling. We're at a parent teacher conference and the teacher is going over what they're doing and she shows us some of the "sight words" and several were words that you could sound out phonetically. I questioned why they were "sight words" and the teacher said that the curriculum taught it that way and they had to follow it.

We used the rest of that school year to get prepped for home schooling and no more public school since.

Glad to hear Mississippi is getting it right!

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Still, evidence suggests these states have made promising gains for low-income kids in particular. In 2019, Alabama ranked 49th in NAEP reading scores for low-income fourth-graders; in 2022, it ranked 27th. Amid the pandemic that saw most states lose ground, Louisiana soared from 42nd to 11th. Mississippi ranks second-highest in the country, after Florida.

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How do most states "lose ground" in a rating system comparing them to other states? MS' rise in the rankings may be a reflection of bluer states tanking because of COVID policies.

93MarineHorn said:

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Still, evidence suggests these states have made promising gains for low-income kids in particular. In 2019, Alabama ranked 49th in NAEP reading scores for low-income fourth-graders; in 2022, it ranked 27th. Amid the pandemic that saw most states lose ground, Louisiana soared from 42nd to 11th. Mississippi ranks second-highest in the country, after Florida.

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How do most states "lose ground" in a rating system comparing them to other states? MS' rise in the rankings may be a reflection of bluer states tanking because of COVID policies.

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I take that to mean...they lost ground, with respect to educating the kids, but Bama and Louisiana actually made improvements during that time.

lb3 said:

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I also don't want 15 year olds in 3rd grade. What do you do with the kids that continually fail when social promotion is no longer an option?

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The hard reality is not everyone is cut out for a 12 year education all the way through high school. One of the favorite phrases of my dad and grandfather was, "well, the world needs ditch diggers too". While they always told me that to motivate me to be something more than a ditch digger, in reality it's a universal truth, and there is nothing wrong with it.

3 of my 4 grandparents didn't finish high school. They had jobs in agriculture and the trades and the 2 women, for the most part being stay at home moms. By most historical comparisons, fairly successful without a full 12 year education.

Get kids to a minimum of a 7th or 8th grade proficiency in reading, writing and arithmetic. Don't keep shoving them into high school courses they get nothing out of and only become a distraction for those that want to continue their education. Make them take an exit finance/life skills course and let them enroll in a trade school or become an apprentice of some sort.

lb3 said:

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fightingfarmer09 said:

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lb3 said:

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AgGrad99 said:

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I recently heard Charlie Kirk mention the 'Mississippi Miracle' with regard to education, specifically reading. I just assumed their schools were still terrible, but it turns out, returning to common sense and neglecting the demands of teacher's unions actually helps kids.

You can read about it here: https://apnews.com/article/reading-scores-phonics-mississippi-alabama-louisiana-5bdd5d6ff719b23faa37db2fb95d5004

Summary: Miss has been one of, if not the lowest ranked educational systems in the country. Many blamed it on demographics. but about 10 years ago, they changed their system, and now are ranked around 20th in education (#2 when adjusted for demographics...but that's a longer discussion).

They simply re-introduced phonics, and stopped 'failing kids forward'. The schools now have several benchmarks to measure the kids in grades 1 & 2, and are assessed for proficiency in 3rd grade. If the kids cannot meet the scores, they are held back. No more passing them through for 'feels'. The State provides several tutoring and summer options to help them along if needed, but they remain in 3rd until they are ready for the next step. Teachers unions pushed back on this, but look silly in hindsight.

In other words, they're now focused on the actual proficiency of the kids, and not on benchmarks for the schools. They've gone back to the way it used to be, and are seeing giant strides. Several other States are modeling this (Bama and Louisiana have seen large gains also).

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Still, evidence suggests these states have made promising gains for low-income kids in particular. In 2019, Alabama ranked 49th in NAEP reading scores for low-income fourth-graders; in 2022, it ranked 27th. Amid the pandemic that saw most states lose ground, Louisiana soared from 42nd to 11th. Mississippi ranks second-highest in the country, after Florida.

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I hope to see more of this across the country.

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Individual accountability is the key. Holding schools and districts accountable just results in cries for more funding. Tell a parent that if a kid fails the 3rd grade proficiency for a third time, they will get put in special ed, you might get some real results.

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SPED classification actually opens up the door to more handouts for college tuition and accommodations. Parents already actively try and get their kids classified for these advantages. You don't want to offer it.

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I also don't want 15 year olds in 3rd grade. What do you do with the kids that continually fail when social promotion is no longer an option?

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Send them to work?

angus55 said:

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lb3 said:

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fightingfarmer09 said:

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lb3 said:

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AgGrad99 said:

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I recently heard Charlie Kirk mention the 'Mississippi Miracle' with regard to education, specifically reading. I just assumed their schools were still terrible, but it turns out, returning to common sense and neglecting the demands of teacher's unions actually helps kids.

You can read about it here: https://apnews.com/article/reading-scores-phonics-mississippi-alabama-louisiana-5bdd5d6ff719b23faa37db2fb95d5004

Summary: Miss has been one of, if not the lowest ranked educational systems in the country. Many blamed it on demographics. but about 10 years ago, they changed their system, and now are ranked around 20th in education (#2 when adjusted for demographics...but that's a longer discussion).

They simply re-introduced phonics, and stopped 'failing kids forward'. The schools now have several benchmarks to measure the kids in grades 1 & 2, and are assessed for proficiency in 3rd grade. If the kids cannot meet the scores, they are held back. No more passing them through for 'feels'. The State provides several tutoring and summer options to help them along if needed, but they remain in 3rd until they are ready for the next step. Teachers unions pushed back on this, but look silly in hindsight.

In other words, they're now focused on the actual proficiency of the kids, and not on benchmarks for the schools. They've gone back to the way it used to be, and are seeing giant strides. Several other States are modeling this (Bama and Louisiana have seen large gains also).

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Still, evidence suggests these states have made promising gains for low-income kids in particular. In 2019, Alabama ranked 49th in NAEP reading scores for low-income fourth-graders; in 2022, it ranked 27th. Amid the pandemic that saw most states lose ground, Louisiana soared from 42nd to 11th. Mississippi ranks second-highest in the country, after Florida.

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I hope to see more of this across the country.

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Individual accountability is the key. Holding schools and districts accountable just results in cries for more funding. Tell a parent that if a kid fails the 3rd grade proficiency for a third time, they will get put in special ed, you might get some real results.

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SPED classification actually opens up the door to more handouts for college tuition and accommodations. Parents already actively try and get their kids classified for these advantages. You don't want to offer it.

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I also don't want 15 year olds in 3rd grade. What do you do with the kids that continually fail when social promotion is no longer an option?

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Send them to work?

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Good idea. They can mow grass, clean bathrooms, etc. at the school.

In the 90's we had a program where kids in alternative school had the opportunity to get out of class to mow public spaces, around the schools, the football field, our Little League baseball park, etc. It seemed like they all loved it and much preferred to get outside and work as opposed to spend all day in class banging their head against the desk.

Finally a positive story. This is tremendous! Schools are for learning. Some kids learn faster than other kids. Reading is fundamental to the process.

Long time educator here. Yes, Mississippi is getting it right. Part of it is what they are teaching. I came from Florida where we taught phonics and was shocked when I came here and it was whole language. However, I closed my door and taught phonics because I knew the value of that. Texas is now implementing phonics with the science of teaching reading but you still have teachers who aren't doing it.

The other thing Mississippi is doing well comes from leadership. The government supports teachers in all levels, not only financially. Teachers are respected and treated as professionals instead of being questioned for every decision they make. Abbott withheld money for his vouchers to pass. Now that they have passed, the discussion around the bill that would raise funding per student and give teachers a raise has come to a screeching halt. Until our teachers are treated as the professionals they are, without micro-managing and scripted curriculum programs, Texas education will not improve.

I'll never forget when we were looking at elementary school for our oldest in California in the 90s, and the state had started this ridiculous "whole reading and math" curriculum. When I was reading the criteria for what this entailed, I was flabbergasted to see the bullet point of "DO NOT sound out words!" We immediately decided to put them in private school where they still taught phonics.

Just one of the MANY ways California governance is a disaster.

Butterflygrl said:

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Long time educator here. Yes, Mississippi is getting it right. Part of it is what they are teaching. I came from Florida where we taught phonics and was shocked when I came here and it was whole language. However, I closed my door and taught phonics because I knew the value of that. Texas is now implementing phonics with the science of teaching reading but you still have teachers who aren't doing it.

The other thing Mississippi is doing well comes from leadership. The government supports teachers in all levels, not only financially. Teachers are respected and treated as professionals instead of being questioned for every decision they make. Abbott withheld money for his vouchers to pass. Now that they have passed, the discussion around the bill that would raise funding per student and give teachers a raise has come to a screeching halt. Until our teachers are treated as the professionals they are, without micro-managing and scripted curriculum programs, Texas education will not improve.

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The scripted curriculum was the final straw for my Dad after teaching for 37 years.

They were going to try to make him use one instead of what he'd been doing for years and was working great.

He said **** it and bowed out. I think he would have kept on for a number of years if that hadn't happened - he loved teaching.

85aggie777 said:

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I'll never forget when we were looking at elementary school for our oldest in California in the 90s, and the state had started this ridiculous "whole reading and math" curriculum. When I was reading the criteria for what this entailed, I was flabbergasted to see the bullet point of "DO NOT sound out words!" We immediately decided to put them in private school where they still taught phonics.

Just one of the MANY ways California governance is a disaster.

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Wait.....they stopped teaching phonics?!

What in the actual ****?

That is sofa king we todd did.

Ag97 said:

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One of the favorite phrases of my dad and grandfather was, "well, the world needs ditch diggers too".

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Grandpa ... is that you??

I'm going out on a limb here, I get it...but what does "teaching phonics" mean?
This is a term I am not familiar with, even if it is how I learned.

smucket said:

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I'm going out on a limb here, I get it...but what does "teaching phonics" mean?
This is a term I am not familiar with, even if it is how I learned.

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More or less its "sound it out." Learning all the weird rules of English letter combinations.

lb3 said:

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fightingfarmer09 said:

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lb3 said:

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AgGrad99 said:

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I recently heard Charlie Kirk mention the 'Mississippi Miracle' with regard to education, specifically reading. I just assumed their schools were still terrible, but it turns out, returning to common sense and neglecting the demands of teacher's unions actually helps kids.

You can read about it here: https://apnews.com/article/reading-scores-phonics-mississippi-alabama-louisiana-5bdd5d6ff719b23faa37db2fb95d5004

Summary: Miss has been one of, if not the lowest ranked educational systems in the country. Many blamed it on demographics. but about 10 years ago, they changed their system, and now are ranked around 20th in education (#2 when adjusted for demographics...but that's a longer discussion).

They simply re-introduced phonics, and stopped 'failing kids forward'. The schools now have several benchmarks to measure the kids in grades 1 & 2, and are assessed for proficiency in 3rd grade. If the kids cannot meet the scores, they are held back. No more passing them through for 'feels'. The State provides several tutoring and summer options to help them along if needed, but they remain in 3rd until they are ready for the next step. Teachers unions pushed back on this, but look silly in hindsight.

In other words, they're now focused on the actual proficiency of the kids, and not on benchmarks for the schools. They've gone back to the way it used to be, and are seeing giant strides. Several other States are modeling this (Bama and Louisiana have seen large gains also).

Quote:

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Still, evidence suggests these states have made promising gains for low-income kids in particular. In 2019, Alabama ranked 49th in NAEP reading scores for low-income fourth-graders; in 2022, it ranked 27th. Amid the pandemic that saw most states lose ground, Louisiana soared from 42nd to 11th. Mississippi ranks second-highest in the country, after Florida.

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I hope to see more of this across the country.

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Individual accountability is the key. Holding schools and districts accountable just results in cries for more funding. Tell a parent that if a kid fails the 3rd grade proficiency for a third time, they will get put in special ed, you might get some real results.

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SPED classification actually opens up the door to more handouts for college tuition and accommodations. Parents already actively try and get their kids classified for these advantages. You don't want to offer it.

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I also don't want 15 year olds in 3rd grade. What do you do with the kids that continually fail when social promotion is no longer an option?

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That's my question, too. How many times are they held back and, if continuing to fail, what's the recourse then?

t_J_e_C_x said:

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lb3 said:

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fightingfarmer09 said:

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lb3 said:

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AgGrad99 said:

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I recently heard Charlie Kirk mention the 'Mississippi Miracle' with regard to education, specifically reading. I just assumed their schools were still terrible, but it turns out, returning to common sense and neglecting the demands of teacher's unions actually helps kids.

You can read about it here: https://apnews.com/article/reading-scores-phonics-mississippi-alabama-louisiana-5bdd5d6ff719b23faa37db2fb95d5004

Summary: Miss has been one of, if not the lowest ranked educational systems in the country. Many blamed it on demographics. but about 10 years ago, they changed their system, and now are ranked around 20th in education (#2 when adjusted for demographics...but that's a longer discussion).

They simply re-introduced phonics, and stopped 'failing kids forward'. The schools now have several benchmarks to measure the kids in grades 1 & 2, and are assessed for proficiency in 3rd grade. If the kids cannot meet the scores, they are held back. No more passing them through for 'feels'. The State provides several tutoring and summer options to help them along if needed, but they remain in 3rd until they are ready for the next step. Teachers unions pushed back on this, but look silly in hindsight.

In other words, they're now focused on the actual proficiency of the kids, and not on benchmarks for the schools. They've gone back to the way it used to be, and are seeing giant strides. Several other States are modeling this (Bama and Louisiana have seen large gains also).

Quote:

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Still, evidence suggests these states have made promising gains for low-income kids in particular. In 2019, Alabama ranked 49th in NAEP reading scores for low-income fourth-graders; in 2022, it ranked 27th. Amid the pandemic that saw most states lose ground, Louisiana soared from 42nd to 11th. Mississippi ranks second-highest in the country, after Florida.

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I hope to see more of this across the country.

---

Individual accountability is the key. Holding schools and districts accountable just results in cries for more funding. Tell a parent that if a kid fails the 3rd grade proficiency for a third time, they will get put in special ed, you might get some real results.

---

SPED classification actually opens up the door to more handouts for college tuition and accommodations. Parents already actively try and get their kids classified for these advantages. You don't want to offer it.

---

I also don't want 15 year olds in 3rd grade. What do you do with the kids that continually fail when social promotion is no longer an option?

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That's my question, too. How many times are they held back and, if continuing to fail, what's the recourse then?

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Third grade standards are basic literacy and math. That many fails suggest extreme special ed or a CPS call. The CPS is out of scope of public schools, and extreme special ed should be a sub-KPI that doesnt count against the baseline statistics.

BigRobSA said:

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85aggie777 said:

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I'll never forget when we were looking at elementary school for our oldest in California in the 90s, and the state had started this ridiculous "whole reading and math" curriculum. When I was reading the criteria for what this entailed, I was flabbergasted to see the bullet point of "DO NOT sound out words!" We immediately decided to put them in private school where they still taught phonics.

Just one of the MANY ways California governance is a disaster.

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Wait.....they stopped teaching phonics?!

What in the actual ****?

That is sofa king we todd did.

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Yes, they did for a while. Once they started having problems with kids being very delayed in reading ability, they decided to go back to it... or at least a hybrid of it. That was 25 years ago, though, so I'm not sure how they are teaching it now. Glad my grandchild is not growing up here in California, regardless.

Here in CA, my kids are learning phonics. Embedded in drag queen story hour of course

t_J_e_C_x said:

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lb3 said:

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fightingfarmer09 said:

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lb3 said:

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AgGrad99 said:

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I recently heard Charlie Kirk mention the 'Mississippi Miracle' with regard to education, specifically reading. I just assumed their schools were still terrible, but it turns out, returning to common sense and neglecting the demands of teacher's unions actually helps kids.

You can read about it here: https://apnews.com/article/reading-scores-phonics-mississippi-alabama-louisiana-5bdd5d6ff719b23faa37db2fb95d5004

Summary: Miss has been one of, if not the lowest ranked educational systems in the country. Many blamed it on demographics. but about 10 years ago, they changed their system, and now are ranked around 20th in education (#2 when adjusted for demographics...but that's a longer discussion).

They simply re-introduced phonics, and stopped 'failing kids forward'. The schools now have several benchmarks to measure the kids in grades 1 & 2, and are assessed for proficiency in 3rd grade. If the kids cannot meet the scores, they are held back. No more passing them through for 'feels'. The State provides several tutoring and summer options to help them along if needed, but they remain in 3rd until they are ready for the next step. Teachers unions pushed back on this, but look silly in hindsight.

In other words, they're now focused on the actual proficiency of the kids, and not on benchmarks for the schools. They've gone back to the way it used to be, and are seeing giant strides. Several other States are modeling this (Bama and Louisiana have seen large gains also).

Quote:

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Still, evidence suggests these states have made promising gains for low-income kids in particular. In 2019, Alabama ranked 49th in NAEP reading scores for low-income fourth-graders; in 2022, it ranked 27th. Amid the pandemic that saw most states lose ground, Louisiana soared from 42nd to 11th. Mississippi ranks second-highest in the country, after Florida.

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I hope to see more of this across the country.

---

Individual accountability is the key. Holding schools and districts accountable just results in cries for more funding. Tell a parent that if a kid fails the 3rd grade proficiency for a third time, they will get put in special ed, you might get some real results.

---

SPED classification actually opens up the door to more handouts for college tuition and accommodations. Parents already actively try and get their kids classified for these advantages. You don't want to offer it.

---

I also don't want 15 year olds in 3rd grade. What do you do with the kids that continually fail when social promotion is no longer an option?

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That's my question, too. How many times are they held back and, if continuing to fail, what's the recourse then?

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I think I would put them in Special Ed if severe enough, create a classroom of all day phonics for the rest. Then anyone not on track to graduate by 21, gets dis-enrolled at age 16 and told to get a job.

Malibu said:

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smucket said:

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I'm going out on a limb here, I get it...but what does "teaching phonics" mean?
This is a term I am not familiar with, even if it is how I learned.

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More or less its "sound it out." Learning all the weird rules of English letter combinations.

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There are ways that "sounding it out" can go wrong, too. I learned ITA in the mid-'70s in Kentucky (Dad was stationed at Ft. Campbell). It didn't realize until just now that it is still around.

http://itafoundation.org/about-us/what-is-i-t-a/

I have a friend that was a teacher in Mississippi. From my understanding, there was a lot of growth at the elementary level but that growth evaporated by the time the kids got to middle school.

edit: Mississippi is ranked 10th in 4th grade reading scores, but 43rd in 8th grade reading scores. The program has been around since 2013.