We are speeding to our own demise while our politicians point the blame at each other. Trump deserves some credit for attempting to implement solutions, but without a unified bipartisan commitment we are toast. We are an incredibly dumb empire.

Kansas Kid said:

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jt2hunt said:

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Fat Bottom Squirrels said:

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I don't think the DOGE cuts will have any discernible effect on anything. It's almost entirely for optics and transparency.

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Yes, and no. The amount of cuts are significant if you consider the fact that had those cuts not been made those expensive would've recurred on an annual basis. Have to start somewhere.

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You absolutely have to start somewhere and I am all for getting rid of the waste and fraud but if we are going to even come close to balancing the budget, major reform is needed in Social Securty, Medicare and Medicaid which Trump and the Republicans (along with the Dems) have said aren't going to be touched.

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They didn't say they would not be touched. They will be reduced by eliminating fraud.

Big difference than won't be touched.

And we need convictions to go along with the cuts.

Funky Winkerbean said:

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And we need convictions to go along with the cuts.

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Would cost us a lot of money to put everyone in prison.

There go those cuts.

Science Denier said:

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Kansas Kid said:

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jt2hunt said:

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Fat Bottom Squirrels said:

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I don't think the DOGE cuts will have any discernible effect on anything. It's almost entirely for optics and transparency.

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Yes, and no. The amount of cuts are significant if you consider the fact that had those cuts not been made those expensive would've recurred on an annual basis. Have to start somewhere.

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You absolutely have to start somewhere and I am all for getting rid of the waste and fraud but if we are going to even come close to balancing the budget, major reform is needed in Social Securty, Medicare and Medicaid which Trump and the Republicans (along with the Dems) have said aren't going to be touched.

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They didn't say they would not be touched. They will be reduced by eliminating fraud.

Big difference than won't be touched.

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The amount of actual fraud still doesn't solve the problem. The vast majority of payments are legitimate payments under the current law and it will get worse due to demographics. Per the Trump administration

"FACT: The Social Security Administration made an estimated $72 billion in improper payments between 2015 and 2022. ($10b per year)
FACT: The Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services estimated it made $140+ billion in improper payments in 2024 alone."

So if you could get rid of all of those payments, it is approx $150b a year. A lot of money but far from enough to come close to solving the deficit problem.

It will help but we need serious, permanent changes like materially higher retirement age, means testing, lower payments, etc.

Science Denier said:

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Funky Winkerbean said:

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And we need convictions to go along with the cuts.

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Would cost us a lot of money to put everyone in prison.

There go those cuts.

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To slow it from happening again.

Funky Winkerbean said:

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We are speeding to our own demise while our politicians point the blame at each other. Trump deserves some credit for attempting to implement solutions, but without a unified bipartisan commitment we are toast. We are an incredibly dumb empire.

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The problem is we are a very arrogant bunch. We think we are special in some way and laws of economics don't apply to us.

This is why we opened the doors of the country to all kinds of foreign scumbags.

American Hardwood said:

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Fat Bottom Squirrels said:

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I don't think the DOGE cuts will have any discernible effect on anything. It's almost entirely for optics and transparency.

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It may not affect the annual budgets much, but it should have dramatic effect on how these agencies conduct business and the scope of that business. That should not be discounted.

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One can hope it changes how the public views these departments for the foreseeable future.

Logos Stick said:

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It will easily hit $40 tril before Trump leaves office. That's only an $800 billion yearly deficit on average to get there. We are at $2 trillion per year now on deficits!

The R congress has no intention of cutting spending. In fact, Trump is increasing spending on the defense budget.

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You can put the defense budget at zero and it wouldn't fix it

Here's some history for you to understand what the timeframe will look like.

When Russia became the USSR in the 1915 or so, it took basically 80 years for them to go bankrupt.

When Argentina became a socialist country in the 30s, it took them about 60 years to go bankrupt.

When Greece went in big on being a socialist country in the 50's-60's, it took about 40+ years to go bankrupt.

We know that we had a very small deficit to none at all when GWB got elected in 2000 and came into office in 2001. The deficits started there, then Obama spent more than every previous administration combined and our deficit became too much to bear. SO, whether you want to argue 2001 or 2009 is when this all started, it's not really the point. It's knowing that the world's largest economy will go bankrupt, but it will most likely take 100 years or more to get there. Most of us, if not all will be gone by 2100-2125. Most of our children will be gone, too.

But make no mistake, this is not ever being overcome until we hit bankruptcy. The inevitable fall here will be when a different country becomes the leader of the world. That's not China or Russia. China's stupid one daughter policy will kill their society off from ever being a world leader eventually, as will their communist control, just as the USSR fell apart. People will not have enough drive or ingenuity to find better methods or technology under communism/socialism. Laziness or acceptance is a human condition. People won't work unless they are motivated by positive results.

So, my guess is that it will take a society of well-educated people, with resources and land, and a desire to be better as world--that is probably India. And that's at least 60-75 years away from even seeing them pass a China or other European countries at the wealth and influence table.

The 323k per taxpayer is an interesting way to put a huge number in context, but it's grossly impractical.

Most taxpayers know they will never pay anywhere near that and think "the rich can afford it", so they don't care. They are more than happy to run up someone else's tab.

Meanwhile, some taxpayers pay "their share" of the debt every year or two, and some more than that.

I'd would have happily paid my 323k share of the debt to be left alone from this point forward, but no way are they going to relax the screws on the actual productive class.

American Hardwood said:

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I accept that both parties contributed to this mess.

But my vote went to the best candidate that I could vote for to do the exact opposite of what has occurred. It's not my fault that these candidates fail either by lack of power to change things themselves or because they were liars with no intent to change anything. There isn't anything else I can do except revolt and that would accomplish even less than continuing to hope the next guy I vote for can do something positive.

So, I do not accept your premise that I still bear blame for the egregious deficits our leaders have created over the decades. I wasn't even alive when most of this began, and I didn't vote for anyone that campaigned for greater deficit spending.

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But you didn't hold the people you voted for to account. Trump blatantly campaigned on greater deficit spending in his first term. He just didn't call it that. "Biggest military budget ever". "Protect SS and Medicare for our seniors". Lo and behold the deficit increased every single year of his first term.

No one cared enough to ever vote for a true fiscal conservative. Can't play the blame game without looking in the mirror. Some are more responsible than others but everyone that voted for Bush, Obama, Trump, Biden, etc. bears some blame.

Let California rot. They voted for it.

We gone.

There is no way to curb this debt growth without cutting (1) medical benefits (access) for those who cannot afford to pay for their treatment (2) reducing retirement benefits via SS and (3) increasing tax rates, which reduce disposable income.

Collectively we need to feel about $12,000 per year per person in real pain.





What you can't do is cut healthcare funding but refuse to allow hospitals/providers to deny care for those who cannot afford it (EMTALA)


What you cannot do is let the Boomer Generation claim their benefits are "untouchable" because they "paid their share" for them in the past, when they also voted into power the politicians that already raided those assets.


What you cannot do is force all the tax hikes onto the middle class and expect them to work just as hard or harder while decreasing spending power



We need to nut up and take our medicine. It's time to make some real and difficult trade off decisions.

If a China war goes hot like most analysts believe before Trump leaves office, $40T is basically guaranteed.

This is never going to be fixed. Anyone with a more than simple understanding of math knows it will take multiple consecutive generations of united and likeminded disciplined Americans to get us back to where we should be. That is not going to happen, period. At least not before a major nation shifting event occurs.

There are exactly three ways to really cut the deficit. Eliminate SS, Medicare, and Military. And absolutely no one will accept one of these, much less all of them. Not politicians, nor voters. They'll all just let the pot reach the boiling pot while they sit in the water.

I am as conservative as it gets, but if I were Trump, the first place I'd look at cutting in today's world is the Woke military. Close foreign bases, stop defense spending beyond anything that is cyber. No newer anything for 5-10 years. Forced retirement for anyone who has been in the service for over 20 years. The military has to be rebuilt anyway, and we need to get away from government lackeys running these branches and bases.

This would buy us some time on the USS Debt sinking completely. But again, nobody is going to ever do any of this because it's too hard.

Tell me how I am supposed to hold those people I voted for accountable? I have voted many times to primary an incumbent I had previously voted for. Doesn't always succeed but that's the way it works in this country.

ETA: give me a candidate that says they will cut SS and Medicare and I will vote for them.

American Hardwood said:

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Tell me how I am supposed to hold those people I voted for accountable? I have voted many times to primary an incumbent I had previously voted for. Doesn't always succeed but that's the way it works in this country.

ETA: give me a candidate that says they will cut SS and Medicare and I will vote for them.

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Vote third party. But of course you and me and everyone else won't. We will continue to vote for our demise.

Quote:

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ETA: give me a candidate that says they will cut SS and Medicare and I will vote for them.

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You do realize that absolutely no serious candidate will run on that don't you?

Yep, hence the dilemma.

Jack Boyette said:

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Jeeper79 said:

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It could hit $40T before he leaves office.

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It's Congress that created this mess. SS and Medicare have to be cut.

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Medicare and Medicaid need to be audited. Those, along with SS, are the biggest line items in the budget and ripe with fraud. That's where anyone serious about cutting spending needs to start. All of the so called waste and fraud that doge has found are little more than rounding errors comparatively.

The feds take in over $3 Trillion a year in taxes, probably more.

We don't have a problem with money. We have a problem with politicians being incapable of not spending 2x what our income is. It can be done, and it doens't have to be done at the expense of you and me and telling us that we just need to nut up and pay more in taxes, wave goodbye to any semblance of the SS that was stolen from us, etc.

But, based on the comments on this thread for hte most part, seems that everybody is pretty much resigned to the fact that we will just fork over more and more of our income and that will somehow work.

This is why people are convinced you cannot solve the Expense>Revenue problem without touching tax rates, healthcare, SS and defense.

FrioAg 00 said:

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This is why people are convinced you cannot solve the Expense>Revenue problem without touching tax rates, healthcare, SS and defense.

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You don't have to touch defense.

But entitlements HAVE to be dealt with.

SS, Medicare, Medicaid and interest consume every dollar we take in via taxes.

We would have a $2 trillion surplus if we didn't have those 4 items.

BTKAG97 said:

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Keep in mind MOST of the US Public Debt is held by the Federal Reserve.

Thank you Woodrow Wilson.

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Can you explain this to me?

American Hardwood said:

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Jeeper79 said:

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Jack Boyette said:

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Jeeper79 said:

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It could hit $40T before he leaves office.

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It's Congress that created this mess. SS and Medicare have to be cut.

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Its everyone that's created this mess.

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No not everyone. I didn't. We don't all share the blame. Don't make excuses for the greedy thieves that set this up.

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Presidents don't have to sign the bull**** they propose. And the PotUS is the defacto leader of their respective party.

It is on all 47 of them as much as Congress.


As to the OP, he's fiscally liberal so you can count on it going up.

pagerman @ work said:

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FrioAg 00 said:

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This is why people are convinced you cannot solve the Expense>Revenue problem without touching tax rates, healthcare, SS and defense.

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You don't have to touch defense.

But entitlements HAVE to be dealt with.

SS, Medicare, Medicaid and interest consume every dollar we take in via taxes.

We would have a $2 trillion surplus if we didn't have those 4 items.

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This is such the obvious solution. We have idiots talking about raising the SS cap and means testing. So turning it into one more straight up entitlement, We have to stop people from getting money to pay for their individual needs from the treasury.

If not, just blow it up and let's see who comes out the other side. It won't be the leeches and the survivors won't be creating entitlements anytime soon.

schmellba99 said:

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The feds take in over $3 Trillion a year in taxes, probably more.

We don't have a problem with money. We have a problem with politicians being incapable of not spending 2x what our income is. It can be done, and it doens't have to be done at the expense of you and me and telling us that we just need to nut up and pay more in taxes, wave goodbye to any semblance of the SS that was stolen from us, etc.

But, based on the comments on this thread for hte most part, seems that everybody is pretty much resigned to the fact that we will just fork over more and more of our income and that will somehow work.

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Ok you pick. What do you want to gut. Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, Defense, Income Security Programs, Veterans Benefits. After those spending categories they are pretty much irrelevant.

We just announced that we will be increasing defense spending so we are already digging the hole deeper.

pagerman @ work said:

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FrioAg 00 said:

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This is why people are convinced you cannot solve the Expense>Revenue problem without touching tax rates, healthcare, SS and defense.

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You don't have to touch defense.

But entitlements HAVE to be dealt with.

SS, Medicare, Medicaid and interest consume every dollar we take in via taxes.

We would have a $2 trillion surplus if we didn't have those 4 items.

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I refuse to concede on those because I've been paying in for over 40 years and I now realize we are governed by children. I'd rather cut defense spending for a few years given our technological advantages. Our system and culture needs a reset. A very hard reset.

pagerman @ work said:

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FrioAg 00 said:

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This is why people are convinced you cannot solve the Expense>Revenue problem without touching tax rates, healthcare, SS and defense.

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You don't have to touch defense.

But entitlements HAVE to be dealt with.

SS, Medicare, Medicaid and interest consume every dollar we take in via taxes.

We would have a $2 trillion surplus if we didn't have those 4 items.

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I agree in theory but how will you just cut Grandma's SS when she needs it to survive? She's paid into it for 40 years. If it is just cut, it will drive so many old people onto the streets.

And why is it an "entitlement"? I was forced to pay into it by the Govt. Now I want my money back. Nothing more nothing less.

Funky Winkerbean said:

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pagerman @ work said:

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FrioAg 00 said:

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This is why people are convinced you cannot solve the Expense>Revenue problem without touching tax rates, healthcare, SS and defense.

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You don't have to touch defense.

But entitlements HAVE to be dealt with.

SS, Medicare, Medicaid and interest consume every dollar we take in via taxes.

We would have a $2 trillion surplus if we didn't have those 4 items.

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I refuse to concede on those because I've been paying in for over 40 years and I now realize we are governed by children. I'd rather cut defense spending for a few years given our technological advantages. Our system and culture needs a reset. A very hard reset.

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I am sure we can cut defense by making it more efficient. I am sure there is a lot of fat there needing to be trimmed.

I agree with you, why should I give up my SS when my money is wasted on foreigners and illegals?

infinity ag said:

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Funky Winkerbean said:

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pagerman @ work said:

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FrioAg 00 said:

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This is why people are convinced you cannot solve the Expense>Revenue problem without touching tax rates, healthcare, SS and defense.

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You don't have to touch defense.

But entitlements HAVE to be dealt with.

SS, Medicare, Medicaid and interest consume every dollar we take in via taxes.

We would have a $2 trillion surplus if we didn't have those 4 items.

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I refuse to concede on those because I've been paying in for over 40 years and I now realize we are governed by children. I'd rather cut defense spending for a few years given our technological advantages. Our system and culture needs a reset. A very hard reset.

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I am sure we can cut defense by making it more efficient. I am sure there is a lot of fat there needing to be trimmed.

I agree with you, why should I give up my SS when my money is wasted on foreigners and illegals and idiots?

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Fify..

rootube said:

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schmellba99 said:

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The feds take in over $3 Trillion a year in taxes, probably more.

We don't have a problem with money. We have a problem with politicians being incapable of not spending 2x what our income is. It can be done, and it doens't have to be done at the expense of you and me and telling us that we just need to nut up and pay more in taxes, wave goodbye to any semblance of the SS that was stolen from us, etc.

But, based on the comments on this thread for hte most part, seems that everybody is pretty much resigned to the fact that we will just fork over more and more of our income and that will somehow work.

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Ok you pick. What do you want to gut. Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, Defense, Income Security Programs, Veterans Benefits. After those spending categories they are pretty much irrelevant.

We just announced that we will be increasing defense spending so we are already digging the hole deeper.

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There. I picked for you.

Who do we owe 38 trillion to? Isn't most of it to ourselves?