vansprinkle said:

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Chinese steel sucks and lacks decent QC. This should help over the long term.

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I don't think its their QC because I think they knowingly cut corners on anything and everything they think they can get away with.

The second you aren't looking over their shoulder the quality drops.


Move outside of steel and I know a guy who has a sports supplement company. He has to test everything after arrival here and make regular visits to his suppliers there to keep things legit. The moment he stops testing or visiting purity drops and nasty contaminants appear.

If you buy any type of vitamin or supplement, there is a very good chance the base ingredients were made in China. Be careful with buying off Amazon. You just might be getting a nasty dose of something like mercury in your supplement.


In my space we have to have a European or American in the facility at all times to get what we ask for in terms of quality.

BigRobSA said:

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AgGrad99 said:

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Quote:

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Agreed.

Attack the problem like a conservative, instead, though

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Not opposed to that by any means.

But I dont know another solution to fixing the imbalance. When I have to compete with the Chinese manufacturer, who's being subsidized by the Government (sometimes owned/controlled outright), I dont know what the solution is. They have a very unfair price advantage, because it's very manipulated market.

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Tariffs won't fix the issue, unless you're willing to agree that liberalism ever works. Tariffs are liberal fiscal policy.

Massive deregulation. (Actually helps bring back mfg)
Gut spending.
Extra-massive tax cuts, of all types. (Helps fuel business reinvestment.)

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Overall, I dont disagree with you. And I do recognize what they are, and what negative consequences come with them.

But a lot of that assumes a fair market, and we operate in a manipulated market. Deregulation will absolutely help. Tax cuts will absolutely help.

But even if that happened, to a great extent, I still can't compete with companies in Asia....because they received govt assistance (specifically designed to retain mfg control). For better or worse, the tariffs do level the playing field.

While I dislike tariffs, and are getting hammered by them at the moment, I do recognize they can serve a purpose and do have the potential to be a powerful tool used sparingly, correctly and temporarily.

rocky the dog said:

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That's tariffic.

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CDUB98 said:

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Quote:

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Massive deregulation. (Actually helps bring back mfg)

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Have to point out something here.

In free trade, global free market, no amount of pragmatic regulation reduction will ever make the Western world competitive. The only way would be to ditch all safety and environmental regulations while also allowing a pittance of wages.

That's the fatal flaw in free trade. We are not competing apples to apples.

Having said that, I am fully on board with reducing regulations as much as possible without sacrificing safety and the environment.

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Right. I'm all about bringing back critical supply chains to the US or at least in our hemisphere, but we all better be ready to pay more for it. Most of gen pop has no concept of this and that things will naturally cost more once they are made here.

Personally, I rarely buy crap these days; only when I need something and I try to buy Made in the USA already. There is going to be some level of weaning for everyone else though.

Hyundai Steel Company is Korean. I guess American-owned steel companies aren't worth the investment.

CDUB98 said:

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Quote:

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Massive deregulation. (Actually helps bring back mfg)

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Have to point out something here.

In free trade, global free market, no amount of pragmatic regulation reduction will ever make the Western world competitive. The only way would be to ditch all safety and environmental regulations while also allowing a pittance of wages.

That's the fatal flaw in free trade. We are not competing apples to apples.

Having said that, I am fully on board with reducing regulations as much as possible without sacrificing safety and the environment.

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Threatening with a good time.

Tariffs only serve to hurt us, the consumers.

rocky the dog said:

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That's tariffic.

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Rocky on the way to POTD, without a meme!

Quote:

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Quote:

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rocky the dog said:
That's tariffic.

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Rocky on the way to POTD, without a meme!

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vansprinkle said:

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Chinese steel sucks and lacks decent QC. This should help over the long term.

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Testify.

There's a major fracking company here in Texas that has had two significant failures from gate valves made from cheap Chinese steel in the last few weeks.

Those stories are spreading like wildfire through the fracking industry. The fracking company has already written off the suppliers of the Chinese made steel valves and turned to a new US steel valve supplier.

Can't imagine the rest of the industry doesn't make a command decision of the same sort pretty soon.

The small amount of money saved by buying cheap Chinese valves is dwarfed by the cost of having to buy every piece of iron on the frac all over again because of a major pressure incident.

MouthBQ98 said:

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It helps those investors and workers. Will that future steel production offset current price increases for many consumers? It depends on what your goals are and how you weigh opportunity costs and consequences.

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I own a steel fabrication shop. I haven't really noticed the tariffs a whole lot in our material bills yet. But I'd gladly pay higher cost and have American made steel. The end.

Detmersdislocatedshoulder said:

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MouthBQ98 said:

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It helps those investors and workers. Will that future steel production offset current price increases for many consumers? It depends on what your goals are and how you weigh opportunity costs and consequences.

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if you want what is best for america long term that includes rebuilding our manufacturing base. nafta and the trans pacific partnership has gutted this infrastructure over the last 35 years. there may be some pain but a little pain is acceptable for the greater good. this is for the greater good of our country.

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It depends on who you are and how you fit into the larger puzzle. If you work in manufacturing, then it's great. If you're just paying permanently higher prices, that's not great. Everything is a trade off.

The tariff endgame is higher prices and unfulfilled promises. If tariffs are the only thing that make large scale manufacturing investments financially viable, then prices aren't going to come down once these facilities are built. Even in the decade + of low interest rates we did not see large investment into these industries. It's not just an infrastructure issue, its labor.

The fundamental issue is that Americans have a high standard of living and we have a global economy. The only way to beat low priced labor is to raise prices on foreign made items so that our expensive domestic labor can compete. And deporting a large cohort of our cheapest laborers is going to exacerbate this. If you drop the tariffs after the factories are built, be ready for layoffs in the coming years.

Detmersdislocatedshoulder said:

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MouthBQ98 said:

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It helps those investors and workers. Will that future steel production offset current price increases for many consumers? It depends on what your goals are and how you weigh opportunity costs and consequences.

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if you want what is best for america long term that includes rebuilding our manufacturing base. nafta and the trans pacific partnership has gutted this infrastructure over the last 35 years. there may be some pain but a little pain is acceptable for the greater good. this is for the greater good of our country.

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When and how does the pain end? There are only two options:

1) Reduce the American Standard of Living
2) Go back to cheap foreign made items and have this investment be wasted in the long run

What am I missing? What other solution is there when foreign labor + logistics costs are cheaper than domestic labor + logistics?

GarlandAg2012 said:

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The tariff endgame is higher prices and unfulfilled promises. If tariffs are the only thing that make large scale manufacturing investments financially viable, then prices aren't going to come down once these facilities are built. Even in the decade + of low interest rates we did not see large investment into these industries. It's not just an infrastructure issue, its labor.

The fundamental issue is that Americans have a high standard of living and we have a global economy. The only way to beat low priced labor is to raise prices on foreign made items so that our expensive domestic labor can compete. And deporting a large cohort of our cheapest laborers is going to exacerbate this. If you drop the tariffs after the factories are built, be ready for layoffs in the coming years.

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You can't drop the tariffs after that, unless you want things to go right back to the way they were. If we're not prepared for them to be permanent then we should stop right now. And if we're ARE prepared for them to be permanent, we need to accept that this pain won't be temporary.

If we don't clear these issues from our system in the next 18 months, we can kiss the mid terms goodbye.

FWIW I do think certain industries should be repatriated for national security:

Pharmaceuticals
Steel
Chips
Ships

And there are certainly others. But that would be knowing we're paying a premium for the security of it.

CenTexSmoke said:

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MouthBQ98 said:

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It helps those investors and workers. Will that future steel production offset current price increases for many consumers? It depends on what your goals are and how you weigh opportunity costs and consequences.

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I own a steel fabrication shop. I haven't really noticed the tariffs a whole lot in our material bills yet. But I'd gladly pay higher cost and have American made steel. The end.

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I am seeing about a 3% increase thus far.

Section 232 steel tariffs have been in place since Trump's first term. Difficulty when you have to factor in steel pricing is based on fluctuations of the composition of the steel itself. That's the one to look into if you want to know if it worked or draw parallels to other industries. Only other difference is those tariffs lived and survived Covid 19.

CDUB98 said:

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Quote:

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Construction on the plant is expected to begin in the third quarter of 2026.

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Be very careful about giving Trump credit.

Based on that timeline for construction start, this project was already underway during the Biden Admin.

Also, typically, these press releases are a few to several months after the Detailed Design has started. Now, given Trump wanting a public win, I could see the announcement being sped up right after FID approval, which would fit this timeline.

And, if FID was just approved, the FEL-2 and FEED phases were likely completed in the past two years, with FEED ending December of 2024.

The Trump tariff threats and the $100MM subsidy certainly help make the math work and decisions easier, but Trump did not do this.



Also worth noting that Hyundai cancelled a giant Blue Ammonia plant in this same area last year. Hell, it may even be the same property. The largest drawback was the site prep. Hyundai wanted lump sum, but given that it is effectively river bottoms, nobody would do that. Way too much risk of losing your ass.

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Biden would only get credit for a correct jello order.

BigRobSA said:

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AgGrad99 said:

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Quote:

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Agreed.

Attack the problem like a conservative, instead, though

---

Not opposed to that by any means.

But I dont know another solution to fixing the imbalance. When I have to compete with the Chinese manufacturer, who's being subsidized by the Government (sometimes owned/controlled outright), I dont know what the solution is. They have a very unfair price advantage, because it's very manipulated market.

---

Tariffs won't fix the issue, unless you're willing to agree that liberalism ever works. Tariffs are liberal fiscal policy.

Massive deregulation. (Actually helps bring back mfg)
Gut spending.
Extra-massive tax cuts, of all types. (Helps fuel business reinvestment.)

---

WTH are keeping repeating this liberal argument.

Tariffs, also known as protectionism, have a long, long history of being done by the GOP.

GarlandAg2012 said:

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The tariff endgame is higher prices and unfulfilled promises. If tariffs are the only thing that make large scale manufacturing investments financially viable, then prices aren't going to come down once these facilities are built. Even in the decade + of low interest rates we did not see large investment into these industries. It's not just an infrastructure issue, its labor.

The fundamental issue is that Americans have a high standard of living and we have a global economy. The only way to beat low priced labor is to raise prices on foreign made items so that our expensive domestic labor can compete. And deporting a large cohort of our cheapest laborers is going to exacerbate this. If you drop the tariffs after the factories are built, be ready for layoffs in the coming years.

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Correct. To my point earlier, we better all be prepared to pay higher prices.

CenTexSmoke said:

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MouthBQ98 said:

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It helps those investors and workers. Will that future steel production offset current price increases for many consumers? It depends on what your goals are and how you weigh opportunity costs and consequences.

---

I own a steel fabrication shop. I haven't really noticed the tariffs a whole lot in our material bills yet. But I'd gladly pay higher cost and have American made steel. The end.

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Our family owns a steel fab shop too and you are full of *****

There will be others, I expect some big investments coming in steel.

I would not be surprised to see JSW invest more here soon. Sucks for car companies because of the stupid Unions, man I would make some kind of deal where it says if unions take over we can leave without penalization

Red Fishing Ag93 said:

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BigRobSA said:

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AgGrad99 said:

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Quote:

---

Agreed.

Attack the problem like a conservative, instead, though

---

Not opposed to that by any means.

But I dont know another solution to fixing the imbalance. When I have to compete with the Chinese manufacturer, who's being subsidized by the Government (sometimes owned/controlled outright), I dont know what the solution is. They have a very unfair price advantage, because it's very manipulated market.

---

Tariffs won't fix the issue, unless you're willing to agree that liberalism ever works. Tariffs are liberal fiscal policy.

Massive deregulation. (Actually helps bring back mfg)
Gut spending.
Extra-massive tax cuts, of all types. (Helps fuel business reinvestment.)

---

WTH are keeping repeating this liberal argument.

Tariffs, also known as protectionism, have a long, long history of being done by the GOP.

---

That's not the argument you think it is. The GOP isn't overly conservative and hasn't been for a long, long time.

Amen Hermano Rob, Amen....

BigRobSA said:

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CDUB98 said:

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Quote:

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Massive deregulation. (Actually helps bring back mfg)

---

Have to point out something here.

In free trade, global free market, no amount of pragmatic regulation reduction will ever make the Western world competitive. The only way would be to ditch all safety and environmental regulations while also allowing a pittance of wages.

That's the fatal flaw in free trade. We are not competing apples to apples.

Having said that, I am fully on board with reducing regulations as much as possible without sacrificing safety and the environment.

---

Threatening with a good time.

Tariffs only serve to hurt us, the consumers.

---

You don't have a political position, you have a religion. You don't have political beliefs, you have a set of stringent dogma. The positions you espouse are a caricature of a reasonable view of the world. It's as bad as arguing with a democrat.

GarlandAg2012 said:

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The tariff endgame is higher prices and unfulfilled promises. If tariffs are the only thing that make large scale manufacturing investments financially viable, then prices aren't going to come down once these facilities are built. Even in the decade + of low interest rates we did not see large investment into these industries. It's not just an infrastructure issue, its labor.

The fundamental issue is that Americans have a high standard of living and we have a global economy. The only way to beat low priced labor is to raise prices on foreign made items so that our expensive domestic labor can compete. And deporting a large cohort of our cheapest laborers is going to exacerbate this. If you drop the tariffs after the factories are built, be ready for layoffs in the coming years.

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Your entire post assumes that the tariffed products are fairly priced. In large part, they are not. They are artificially cheaper due to foreign government intervention.

There is a theory that we should just take advantage of these lower prices, because, America, as a whole, is better off. But, when one segment of the population bears the brunt of all the foreign manipulation, it is not good for the economy, because the political situation becomes unstable. And then you get revolts like MAGA.

Focusing only on economic theory without considerations of socio-political costs in 2025 is folly. If Trump fails to help the middle class, we are likely to see a Bernie Sanders in office. That would make these tariffs look like a rounding error.

Quote:

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Focusing only on economic theory without considerations of socio-political costs in 2025 is folly. If Trump fails to help the middle class, we are likely to see a Bernie Sanders in office. That would make these tariffs look like a rounding error.

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"Construction timeline

Construction on the plant is expected to begin in the third quarter of 2026."


Read as mid-terms may cancel the project.

TyHolden said:

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the south is the new rust belt

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Right to work states with big foreign auto plants

****in owned

CDUB98 said:

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Quote:

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Massive deregulation. (Actually helps bring back mfg)

---

Have to point out something here.

In free trade, global free market, no amount of pragmatic regulation reduction will ever make the Western world competitive. The only way would be to ditch all safety and environmental regulations while also allowing a pittance of wages.

That's the fatal flaw in free trade. We are not competing apples to apples.

Having said that, I am fully on board with reducing regulations as much as possible without sacrificing safety and the environment.

---

Anyone who thinks competing with countries that have their own tariffs to protect internal industries that we don't reciprocate on, facilitate IP theft, depression wages and manipulate their own currency to maintain an export advantage is free trade is an idiot.

Build baby build!

Just keep the ****ing unions out of it.

Wait, NBC's Nicole Russell has a piece out today about what Trump is doing is working? What planet am I on?

Quote:

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Trump is reforming government and restoring liberty

Americans who are alarmed by Trump should recognize the significance of the nation's decline under progressive leaders. President Joe Biden drove the country to the far left, losing control of our borders, driving up the budget deficit and the national debt and imposing a progressive social agenda that ignored what most Americans believed. Democratic presidential nominee Kamala Harris and her running mate Tim Walz were even more progressive and would have made it even harder to turn the ship around.

Opinion: Don't panic over the stock market. Trump is fixing holes in our economy.

America's quest for liberty is not exclusive to a 248-year-old revolution, identifiable by red coats and taxation without representation. Tyranny is now trickier to spot, but it can be found in far-left ideas embedded in federal aid programs, higher taxes and attempts to infringe on personal liberties. Republicans have bought into these efforts at times, but Democrats are far worse.
Trump presidency isn't normal, and that's a good thing

My litmus test for Trump's efficacy isn't whether he passes the normalcy test he's already failed it. Mine is simply this: Is Trump supporting ideas and polices that make my family and me more free? Love him or hate him, Trump is doing exactly that.

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I mean, not tariffs directly, and note that she lives in Texas, but wow. She also basically admitted in the article to having had at least stage 3 TDS in 2021.