Tom Fox said:

---

GasPasser97 said:

---

Tom Fox said:

---

GasPasser97 said:

---

Tom Fox said:

---

Ag CPA said:

---

Too many lawyers as it is; unless you get into one of the top firms out of school it's a dead-end career.

---

This is a very definitive statement that is not entirely true. While I went to a top law school and spent a short stint at big law, my partners did not and they make high 6 figures in their mid 30s.

There are significant opportunities for conservative attorneys from top law schools. 2 out of 5 of my study partners worked in the first Trump admin. 4 out of 5 of us were offered jobs this go around but none accepted because we are all making too much money in our careers now to 10 years post graduation to take a 65-80% pay cut.

---

I should've gone to law school instead of medical school.

Top 5% of my med school class…any residency program I wanted…19 years in private practice and I'm making 1/3 to 1/2 of your colleagues in their mid 30s…

Depressing…

---

That doesn't sound possible, but I know very little about the business of private medical practices.

---

If you are suggesting the majority of doctors make upper 6 figures a year EVER…much less than in their 30's…prepare to be surprised

---

Obviously not in their mid 30s for doctors because attorneys graduate and enter practice at 25 or 26 and doctors not until 30 or so. But I was more surprised that a physician 20 years into their career would make less than $500K-$600K in private practice. They are essentially just selling their time like attorneys. Again I would think people would be willing to find the money to pay for their health or freedom.

I wonder if medical practice overhead is higher than a legal practice. But I bet it has more to do with government intrusion being more significant in skewing your market than mine.

---

My early Gen X family members make more than a million dollars a year as specialists in medicine.

TheWoodlandsTxAg said:

---

Tom Fox said:

---

GasPasser97 said:

---

Tom Fox said:

---

GasPasser97 said:

---

Tom Fox said:

---

Ag CPA said:

---

Too many lawyers as it is; unless you get into one of the top firms out of school it's a dead-end career.

---

This is a very definitive statement that is not entirely true. While I went to a top law school and spent a short stint at big law, my partners did not and they make high 6 figures in their mid 30s.

There are significant opportunities for conservative attorneys from top law schools. 2 out of 5 of my study partners worked in the first Trump admin. 4 out of 5 of us were offered jobs this go around but none accepted because we are all making too much money in our careers now to 10 years post graduation to take a 65-80% pay cut.

---

I should've gone to law school instead of medical school.

Top 5% of my med school class…any residency program I wanted…19 years in private practice and I'm making 1/3 to 1/2 of your colleagues in their mid 30s…

Depressing…

---

That doesn't sound possible, but I know very little about the business of private medical practices.

---

If you are suggesting the majority of doctors make upper 6 figures a year EVER…much less than in their 30's…prepare to be surprised

---

Obviously not in their mid 30s for doctors because attorneys graduate and enter practice at 25 or 26 and doctors not until 30 or so. But I was more surprised that a physician 20 years into their career would make less than $500K-$600K in private practice. They are essentially just selling their time like attorneys. Again I would think people would be willing to find the money to pay for their health or freedom.

I wonder if medical practice overhead is higher than a legal practice. But I bet it has more to do with government intrusion being more significant in skewing your market than mine.

---

My early Gen X family members make more than a million dollars a year as specialists in medicine.

---

Nice! That is more in line with what I was expecting from top end doctors.

I might consider running for Judge or DA at the end of my career but it is not economically viable for my family anytime soon.

LMCane said:

---

If you want to actually do something tangible then JOIN THE FEDERALIST SOCIETY

it's open to non-attorneys as well.

the Society plays a major role in selecting applicants for Judgeships and Justices.

https://fedsoc.org/membership

---

Do y'all take physicians?

My family of conservative and Republican physicians are really passionate about fighting against the Soros funded takeover of the local justice systems in metro areas across the United States.

There is actually a shortage of lawyers that can do really complicated work at the big law level, at least in corporate, tax, etc. all these people saying big law is a dead end honestly are very uninformed. I've been in big law my whole career (only in my 9th year) and all of my friends make mid six figures to 7 figures. Even if you only do big law for a few years the in house options for a corporate person are very good. Now, this is talking about the the elite big law, but the notion that it isn't a good option is just wrong.


The risk/danger is going to a non-elite law school and not getting a good job but have massive debt.

Tom Fox said:

---

TheWoodlandsTxAg said:

---

Tom Fox said:

---

GasPasser97 said:

---

Tom Fox said:

---

GasPasser97 said:

---

Tom Fox said:

---

Ag CPA said:

---

Too many lawyers as it is; unless you get into one of the top firms out of school it's a dead-end career.

---

This is a very definitive statement that is not entirely true. While I went to a top law school and spent a short stint at big law, my partners did not and they make high 6 figures in their mid 30s.

There are significant opportunities for conservative attorneys from top law schools. 2 out of 5 of my study partners worked in the first Trump admin. 4 out of 5 of us were offered jobs this go around but none accepted because we are all making too much money in our careers now to 10 years post graduation to take a 65-80% pay cut.

---

I should've gone to law school instead of medical school.

Top 5% of my med school class…any residency program I wanted…19 years in private practice and I'm making 1/3 to 1/2 of your colleagues in their mid 30s…

Depressing…

---

That doesn't sound possible, but I know very little about the business of private medical practices.

---

If you are suggesting the majority of doctors make upper 6 figures a year EVER…much less than in their 30's…prepare to be surprised

---

Obviously not in their mid 30s for doctors because attorneys graduate and enter practice at 25 or 26 and doctors not until 30 or so. But I was more surprised that a physician 20 years into their career would make less than $500K-$600K in private practice. They are essentially just selling their time like attorneys. Again I would think people would be willing to find the money to pay for their health or freedom.

I wonder if medical practice overhead is higher than a legal practice. But I bet it has more to do with government intrusion being more significant in skewing your market than mine.

---

My early Gen X family members make more than a million dollars a year as specialists in medicine.

---

Nice! That is more in line with what I was expecting from top end doctors.

I might consider running for Judge or DA at the end of my career but it is not economically viable for my family anytime soon.

---

Most docs dont make that... theyre in line with what gas was saying, and that's for specialists. PCPs make like 300, median doc pay is 350k or so.

Those here would not tolerate the training or lifestyle of most surgical subspecialties (aside from urology or ent), so not going to entertain that. The only docs I know with reasonable lifestyles who make 7 figures are dermatologists, radiologists, gastroenterologists, pain docs, that's all I can think of now. Doc pay would shock most of you here lol. Going into law/finance/engineering is a much better ROI

To me, this seems like a classic "the grass is greener across the fence" situation. Google "average lawyer salaries" and I suspect that most will be surprised how low they are.

The overwhelming majority of lawyers are relatively low-level government employees, mid-level corporate employees, or in private practice just scraping by.

How about we tell kids to do their own research into something they find interesting and rewarding (and pays the bills), and remind them that work is not life and shouldn't be their identity?

plowe32 said:

---

Ag CPA said:

---

Too many lawyers as it is; unless you get into one of the top firms out of school it's a dead-end career.

---

Lol. Glad I didn't listen to you! That is an incredibly bad take. Let me guess, as a CPA, you draft Company Agreements for your clients too?

---

Let me guess.. as a lawyer you draft tax language for operating agreements that doesn't apply and actually screws your clients and give other similarly bad tax advice because CPAs can't ever be as smart?

whytho987654 said:

---

Tom Fox said:

---

TheWoodlandsTxAg said:

---

Tom Fox said:

---

GasPasser97 said:

---

Tom Fox said:

---

GasPasser97 said:

---

Tom Fox said:

---

Ag CPA said:

---

Too many lawyers as it is; unless you get into one of the top firms out of school it's a dead-end career.

---

This is a very definitive statement that is not entirely true. While I went to a top law school and spent a short stint at big law, my partners did not and they make high 6 figures in their mid 30s.

There are significant opportunities for conservative attorneys from top law schools. 2 out of 5 of my study partners worked in the first Trump admin. 4 out of 5 of us were offered jobs this go around but none accepted because we are all making too much money in our careers now to 10 years post graduation to take a 65-80% pay cut.

---

I should've gone to law school instead of medical school.

Top 5% of my med school class…any residency program I wanted…19 years in private practice and I'm making 1/3 to 1/2 of your colleagues in their mid 30s…

Depressing…

---

That doesn't sound possible, but I know very little about the business of private medical practices.

---

If you are suggesting the majority of doctors make upper 6 figures a year EVER…much less than in their 30's…prepare to be surprised

---

Obviously not in their mid 30s for doctors because attorneys graduate and enter practice at 25 or 26 and doctors not until 30 or so. But I was more surprised that a physician 20 years into their career would make less than $500K-$600K in private practice. They are essentially just selling their time like attorneys. Again I would think people would be willing to find the money to pay for their health or freedom.

I wonder if medical practice overhead is higher than a legal practice. But I bet it has more to do with government intrusion being more significant in skewing your market than mine.

---

My early Gen X family members make more than a million dollars a year as specialists in medicine.

---

Nice! That is more in line with what I was expecting from top end doctors.

I might consider running for Judge or DA at the end of my career but it is not economically viable for my family anytime soon.

---

Most docs dont make that... theyre in line with what gas was saying, and that's for specialists. PCPs make like 300, median doc pay is 350k or so.

Those here would not tolerate the training or lifestyle of most surgical subspecialties (aside from urology or ent), so not going to entertain that. The only docs I know with reasonable lifestyles who make 7 figures are dermatologists, radiologists, gastroenterologists, pain docs, that's all I can think of now. Doc pay would shock most of you here lol. Going into law/finance/engineering is a much better ROI

---

This is true. Just look at the data that was published in this thread, it is real world data.

As far as the number of years you give up, it is considerable. Mine was four years of medical school, two years of general surgery, four years of ENT, and then a fellowship year. 11 years after college before you are starting to pay off your debt and make a good salary.

What's worse is that the profession is being squeezed from above by insurance companies and CMS and from below by midlevel providers (NPs, PAs, etc.). Medicare has us slated for a 2.8% pay CUT this year. No concerns at all that our overhead has increased along with inflation, to the tune of 20%. Rents, employee salaries and benefits, supplies, EMR costs - everything except for reimbursement is going up. It's not sustainable, but people don't see it yet. I am in the final years of my practice, but I am glad that my son has absolutely zero interest in going into medicine. People don't know it yet, but it is going to get extremely difficult for Medicare and Medicaid patients to find providers (in many areas it already is), then it will spill into the rest of the populace. We will move to a two tiered system as the U.K. has.

Jabin said:

---

To me, this seems like a classic "the grass is greener across the fence" situation. Google "average lawyer salaries" and I suspect that most will be surprised how low they are.

The overwhelming majority of lawyers are relatively low-level government employees, mid-level corporate employees, or in private practice just scraping by.

---

It really varies.

What's interesting to me is Texas state court judges. In small towns/counties, the pay is a nice living and you can be a part of the local elite.

In places like Houston or Dallas, they get paid 2/3 what a 1st year associate in BigLaw gets paid. So you end up with Texas southern law grads on the ballot whose career was hanging a shingle after law school because firms weren't interested and then getting themselves embedded with the local democrat party.

I'm glad Texas started the business courts because some of the dum-dums on the bench probably spell "Yale" with a 6.

Kool said:

---

whytho987654 said:

---

Tom Fox said:

---

TheWoodlandsTxAg said:

---

Tom Fox said:

---

GasPasser97 said:

---

Tom Fox said:

---

GasPasser97 said:

---

Tom Fox said:

---

Ag CPA said:

---

Too many lawyers as it is; unless you get into one of the top firms out of school it's a dead-end career.

---

This is a very definitive statement that is not entirely true. While I went to a top law school and spent a short stint at big law, my partners did not and they make high 6 figures in their mid 30s.

There are significant opportunities for conservative attorneys from top law schools. 2 out of 5 of my study partners worked in the first Trump admin. 4 out of 5 of us were offered jobs this go around but none accepted because we are all making too much money in our careers now to 10 years post graduation to take a 65-80% pay cut.

---

I should've gone to law school instead of medical school.

Top 5% of my med school class…any residency program I wanted…19 years in private practice and I'm making 1/3 to 1/2 of your colleagues in their mid 30s…

Depressing…

---

That doesn't sound possible, but I know very little about the business of private medical practices.

---

If you are suggesting the majority of doctors make upper 6 figures a year EVER…much less than in their 30's…prepare to be surprised

---

Obviously not in their mid 30s for doctors because attorneys graduate and enter practice at 25 or 26 and doctors not until 30 or so. But I was more surprised that a physician 20 years into their career would make less than $500K-$600K in private practice. They are essentially just selling their time like attorneys. Again I would think people would be willing to find the money to pay for their health or freedom.

I wonder if medical practice overhead is higher than a legal practice. But I bet it has more to do with government intrusion being more significant in skewing your market than mine.

---

My early Gen X family members make more than a million dollars a year as specialists in medicine.

---

Nice! That is more in line with what I was expecting from top end doctors.

I might consider running for Judge or DA at the end of my career but it is not economically viable for my family anytime soon.

---

Most docs dont make that... theyre in line with what gas was saying, and that's for specialists. PCPs make like 300, median doc pay is 350k or so.

Those here would not tolerate the training or lifestyle of most surgical subspecialties (aside from urology or ent), so not going to entertain that. The only docs I know with reasonable lifestyles who make 7 figures are dermatologists, radiologists, gastroenterologists, pain docs, that's all I can think of now. Doc pay would shock most of you here lol. Going into law/finance/engineering is a much better ROI

---

This is true. Just look at the data that was published in this thread, it is real world data.

As far as the number of years you give up, it is considerable. Mine was four years of medical school, two years of general surgery, four years of ENT, and then a fellowship year. 11 years after college before you are starting to pay off your debt and make a good salary.

What's worse is that the profession is being squeezed from above by insurance companies and CMS and from below by midlevel providers (NPs, PAs, etc.). Medicare has us slated for a 2.8% pay CUT this year. No concerns at all that our overhead has increased along with inflation, to the tune of 20%. Rents, employee salaries and benefits, supplies, EMR costs - everything except for reimbursement is going up. It's not sustainable, but people don't see it yet. I am in the final years of my practice, but I am glad that my son has absolutely zero interest in going into medicine. People don't know it yet, but it is going to get extremely difficult for Medicare and Medicaid patients to find providers (in many areas it already is), then it will spill into the rest of the populace. We will move to a two tiered system as the U.K. has.

---

On the mark. I think peoples perceptions of physicians are stuck in the 1980s. Many are now graduating with 300-400k of debt, and this admin is very hostile towards PSFL and REPAYE (which were options available and promised to those when they signed on the loans...), and wonderful RFK is on record saying he would like physician pay to be cut to European levels, what a joke. Midlevel creep and healthcare consolidation are also major threats.

And I don't think people realize how rough it is to be a surgical subspecialist like yourself, my friends in ENT work 5am-8pm, with q3-q4 36 hour call mixed in x5 years minimum, and I'm sure it was worse for you back in the day. My friends in finance/mid firm law complain about "long" 8 hour days where half the time they're bsing (and they're making 200-300k in their late 20s!). Im in a relative lifestyle field (pgy3 IR), and even I grind pretty hard, and my pay is roughly 63k with 240k of student loans.... Yeah don't recommend medicine lol

If a field has the pay get cut year after year with the rise of inflation, overhead and ancillary staff price rise, it is not a viable business option- that is medicine now. And private practice docs get reimbursed pennies on the dollar what a hospital does for the same office visit, same surgery, same MRI read, same procedure, etc. And you're right, people don't see it yet. I plan on doing locums for 5-6 years and trying to get into device patent design and have that be my career. Practicing medicine is a losing proposition going forward, which is sad because people will need care, and midlevels will be the only ones there left (they're terrible btw)

Jabin said:

---

To me, this seems like a classic "the grass is greener across the fence" situation. Google "average lawyer salaries" and I suspect that most will be surprised how low they are.

The overwhelming majority of lawyers are relatively low-level government employees, mid-level corporate employees, or in private practice just scraping by.

---

Nope, just laying down reality. Public perception of physicians has lagged behind what is really going on

Tom Fox said:

---

GasPasser97 said:

---

Tom Fox said:

---

GasPasser97 said:

---

Tom Fox said:

---

Ag CPA said:

---

Too many lawyers as it is; unless you get into one of the top firms out of school it's a dead-end career.

---

This is a very definitive statement that is not entirely true. While I went to a top law school and spent a short stint at big law, my partners did not and they make high 6 figures in their mid 30s.

There are significant opportunities for conservative attorneys from top law schools. 2 out of 5 of my study partners worked in the first Trump admin. 4 out of 5 of us were offered jobs this go around but none accepted because we are all making too much money in our careers now to 10 years post graduation to take a 65-80% pay cut.

---

I should've gone to law school instead of medical school.

Top 5% of my med school class…any residency program I wanted…19 years in private practice and I'm making 1/3 to 1/2 of your colleagues in their mid 30s…

Depressing…

---

That doesn't sound possible, but I know very little about the business of private medical practices.

---

If you are suggesting the majority of doctors make upper 6 figures a year EVER…much less than in their 30's…prepare to be surprised

---

Obviously not in their mid 30s for doctors because attorneys graduate and enter practice at 25 or 26 and doctors not until 30 or so. But I was more surprised that a physician 20 years into their career would make less than $500K-$600K in private practice. They are essentially just selling their time like attorneys. Again I would think people would be willing to find the money to pay for their health or freedom.

I wonder if medical practice overhead is higher than a legal practice. But I bet it has more to do with government intrusion being more significant in skewing your market than mine.

---

500-600k in private practice is killing it now as a subspecialist lol

MemphisAg1 said:

---

Those numbers seem low.

My middle son will graduate dental school in May and land a starting job $150k to $200k fresh out of dental school.

Doctor $ > Dentist $, at least from how I understood the world.

He's contemplating going on for oral surgery, which could be 3X to 4X standard dentistry if you're good at what you do and in the right place.

---

OMFS can make 1.5-2 mil. Dental subspecialties do way better than medicine ones because their reimbursement isn't at a whim of CMS/medicare

GasPasser97 said:

---

Tom Fox said:

---

GasPasser97 said:

---

Tom Fox said:

---

GasPasser97 said:

---

Tom Fox said:

---

Ag CPA said:

---

Too many lawyers as it is; unless you get into one of the top firms out of school it's a dead-end career.

---

This is a very definitive statement that is not entirely true. While I went to a top law school and spent a short stint at big law, my partners did not and they make high 6 figures in their mid 30s.

There are significant opportunities for conservative attorneys from top law schools. 2 out of 5 of my study partners worked in the first Trump admin. 4 out of 5 of us were offered jobs this go around but none accepted because we are all making too much money in our careers now to 10 years post graduation to take a 65-80% pay cut.

---

I should've gone to law school instead of medical school.

Top 5% of my med school class…any residency program I wanted…19 years in private practice and I'm making 1/3 to 1/2 of your colleagues in their mid 30s…

Depressing…

---

That doesn't sound possible, but I know very little about the business of private medical practices.

---

If you are suggesting the majority of doctors make upper 6 figures a year EVER…much less than in their 30's…prepare to be surprised

---

Obviously not in their mid 30s for doctors because attorneys graduate and enter practice at 25 or 26 and doctors not until 30 or so. But I was more surprised that a physician 20 years into their career would make less than $500K-$600K in private practice. They are essentially just selling their time like attorneys. Again I would think people would be willing to find the money to pay for their health or freedom.

I wonder if medical practice overhead is higher than a legal practice. But I bet it has more to do with government intrusion being more significant in skewing your market than mine.

---

A lot of specialists make $4-600K

Primary care less

Income tends to start in that range and stay flat

But I'm not office based, so I can't speak to overhead

I did have a surgeon (now retired) tell me he started private practice in the 80's with just a RN and receptionist…which grew to an office staff of 10 by the 2010s…mostly due to insurance/government bureaucracy

Also was trained by a guy who who made more in the 80s than I do now

Had another surgeon tell me the first 6 cases he did per day were just to cover overhead…and it took the 7th case to put money in his pocket

All anecdotal, so take it with a BIG grain of salt

Still…it's a pretty consistent story I hear, so there's something there…

I think you are on point about the market being skewed

---

Are you a pain doc?

To me, a law school education has value because it does teach you to doubt what you think you know. That means a keener awareness of what you might not know. (Which has made lawyers widely more cautious and not the best business people. Too cautious and can miss opportunities.

OTOH, vast majority of lawyers never set foot in a courtroom, unless there has been a massive foul-up somewhere and they have to testify in court.

And on the third hand, trial practice is the most chaotic, nerve wracking but exciting specialty in practice. But it is not for everybody. My longest trial was about a month. I literally collapsed and slept for nearly a week afterwards. They take a lot out of you, not because of court time (even back in my day, when crap wasn't happening in the middle of the freakin' night) but the hours of prep needed

aggiehawg said:

---

To me, a law school education has value because it does teach you to doubt what you think you know. That means a keener awareness of what you might not know. (Which has made lawyers widely more cautious and not the best business people. Too cautious and can miss opportunities.

OTOH, vast majority of lawyers never set foot in a courtroom, unless there has been a massive foul-up somewhere and they have to testify in court.

And on the third hand, trial practice is the most chaotic, nerve wracking but exciting specialty in practice. But it is not for everybody. My longest trial was about a month. I literally collapsed and slept for nearly a week afterwards. They take a lot out of you, not because of court time (even back in my day, when crap wasn't happening in the middle of the freakin' night) but the hours of prep needed

---

I can't imagine not being a trial lawyer. I wouldn't feel like an actual lawyer if I wasn't in the courtroom all the time.