titan said:

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For those going to the other extreme of talking about abandoning Ukraine entirely, what if any culpability or responsibility do you see we have for our mid 1990's arrangements and assurances with Urkaine?

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Do we have a handy list of those arrangements and assurances? Did they have any part of the bargain to hold up on their end? I would need to understand that to better determine. Though I think it can be assumed that I would answer "none" unless I have missed something.

Teslag said:

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TxSquarebody said:

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Only a sovereign nation for as long as they can keep it.

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Isn't that what they are being demonized for trying to do?

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I'm old enough to remember when you swore Trump would put the screws to Putin.

titan said:

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For those going to the other extreme of talking about abandoning Ukraine entirely, what if any culpability or responsibility do you see we have for our mid 1990's arrangements and assurances with Urkaine?

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If America fights a war with Russia the chances that China is able to expand their reach in Asia and South America greatly increases. So we risk major world wide outcomes just to save Ukraine? Taiwan wouldn't like that (we made promises to them). What about Japan and South Korea? Or any of the south American countries?

Look the promise was made under conditions where Russia was the 1 threat. Now there is a new threat China. Russia is honestly more of a neutral.

What good is it to save Ukraine to seed power to China? The real world has tradeoffs and that is one any rational person isn't willing to risk.

That's a very good answer. Was just asking the question, because that assurance is in the mix.

Your reasoning is very sound in my view. Of course I much prefer something closer to President Washington's caution about entangling alliances. Which more or less directly caused World War One.

flown-the-coop said:

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titan said:

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For those going to the other extreme of talking about abandoning Ukraine entirely, what if any culpability or responsibility do you see we have for our mid 1990's arrangements and assurances with Urkaine?

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Do we have a handy list of those arrangements and assurances? Did they have any part of the bargain to hold up on their end? I would need to understand that to better determine. Though I think it can be assumed that I would answer "none" unless I have missed something.

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Here's the cliffs notes. Basically we promised we'd "do something" to ensure their security if Russia violated their end of the bargain, short of deploying troops. We were intentionally vague so as to be able to avoid any hard commitments when Russia inevitably reneged. Most likely the same will be true for any treaty resulting from the current situation, as everyone is well aware of what to expect from Russia.

https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/ukraine-nuclear-weapons-and-security-assurances-glance

https://cisac.fsi.stanford.edu/news/budapest-memorandum-myths

https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/constructive-ambiguity-of-the-budapest-memorandum-at-28-making-sense-of-the-controversial-agreement

Everyone knows Putin is a dictator. But people or I should say western media act like zelensky is a super hero. And thus why Trump is calling him out.

People also have to come to terms with the fact western media has been propping Russia up as the world bully to siphon defense spending.

Russia was the premier country in the world during the turn of the century in 1900. Russia also was one of the largest Christian nations. It sadly was overtaken by communists and Bolsheviks. Russia and Russian people are not the United States mortal enemies.

There's also a false idea in the west that if you remove Putin you automatically get someone better. Thats not likely the case at all. Youd end up with someone far more brutal as they would naturally have to be to consolidate power. Even Putin faced Wagner troops fighting inside Russia.

Appreciate the links. I have some reading to do.

AgOutsideAustin said:

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Big, beautiful Ocean lol !!

Damn I missed the way he talks !!

We are back !!

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Same. I was gonna post about that exact phrasing

Yukon Cornelius said:

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Everyone knows Putin is a dictator. But people or I should say western media act like zelensky is a super hero. And thus why Trump is calling him out.

People also have to come to terms with the fact western media has been propping Russia up as the world bully to siphon defense spending.

Russia was the premier country in the world during the turn of the century in 1900. Russia also was one of the largest Christian nations. It sadly was overtaken by communists and Bolsheviks. Russia and Russian people are not the United States mortal enemies.

There's also a false idea in the west that if you remove Putin you automatically get someone better. Thats not likely the case at all. Youd end up with someone far more brutal as they would naturally have to be to consolidate power. Even Putin faced Wagner troops fighting inside Russia.

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#1 Someone should tell Trump putin is a dictator then because he is acting like he is the only one that doesn't know.
#2 We should have listened to Patton.
#3 It doesn't sound like you have read The Gulag Archipelago.

Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

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So we're rewarding Russia for taking Ukrainian soil?

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If:
1.) The war/bloodshed ends...
2.) The drain on US resources ends...
3.) Prevention of a broader conflict is the result...and;
3.) Peace prevails...
Then, yes. Win/Win!
Never should have gotten involved in the first place.

titan said:

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That's a very good answer. Was just asking the question, because that assurance is in the mix.

Your reasoning is very sound in my view. Of course I much prefer something closer to President Washington's caution about entangling alliances. Which more or less directly caused World War One.

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I might be the resident anti-treaty poster. A contract is only valid if there is a means of enforcement, which requires a "higher power". There isn't really a higher power when America, Russia and China are involved.
Otherwise a treaty runs the risk of forcing your hand. Were the treaties pre WW1 really taking into account an assanation of a Duke? Probably not. But they didn't "force majure" themselves out of it. Likely because the generals wanted glory.

Quote:

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There's also a false idea in the west that if you remove Putin you automatically get someone better. Thats not likely the case at all. Youd end up with someone far more brutal as they would naturally have to be to consolidate power. Even Putin faced Wagner troops fighting inside Russia.

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Correct. This is one of the more dangerous aspects and catch-22s not appreciated. MOST Russian leaders feel that way about Ukraine and especially Crimea. Many of them see NATO as a direct willful enemy, not just a potential threat. This over-focus on Putin is kind of scary because it is not realized how relatively cultured and somewhat restrained he is compared to many of those waiting in the wings. And since we have squandered so much of our moral capital that we often have had in the past as some kind of peace-broker, it makes it far more dangerous.

We should have listened to somebody but it wasn't Patton. Russia isn't our enemy nor should they be.

There's a problem in Eastern Europe few are willing to actually address which has been the source of conflict in that area for hundreds of years.

Dr. Not Yet Dr. Ag said:

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Elections weren't held in 2024 for the Ukraine due to an active war going on. How are you supposed to have a fair, democratic election when people in occupied lands are not safe to go out to the polls and vote and a sizeable proportion of young men in the country are busy fighting a war? Or how about the near 20% of the population that fled due to the war?

Surely people here aren't this gullible.

Trump calling Zelensky a dictator is rich considering Putin is an actual dictator, and yet Trump remains silent on this fact. What the hell happened to conservatives in this country that so many are willing to lap up Russian talking points?

I get the argument of not wanting to send tax payer money to help Ukraine, but stating Zelensky is a dictator because no elections were held is a braindead take, and literally just a Russian state media talking point.

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Have you ever negotiated anything in your life?

Trump told Zelensky what it would take…Zelensky didn't like the terms, threw a fit, so Trump put him on blast…

Zelensky will cave and Trump will get what he wants…

And again…there is a China angle here that a lot of you are missing…stop being shortsighted…

PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Teslag said:

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TxSquarebody said:

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Only a sovereign nation for as long as they can keep it.

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Isn't that what they are being demonized for trying to do?

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I'm old enough to remember when you swore Trump would put the screws to Putin.

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Hopefully he still does. I was told he was a deal maker. At this point seems like he's all in on appeasement.

Well said.

Yukon Cornelius said:

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We should have listened to somebody but it wasn't Patton. Russia isn't our enemy nor should they be.

There's a problem in Eastern Europe few are willing to actually address which has been the source of conflict in that area for hundreds of years.

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Russia is a trash country with a broken culture. They have very little in common with American values and ideals.

Says the western media for decades. Russia was one of the largest Christian nations until recently since the Bolsheviks took over. They had the premier universities, research, music, art, literature and math for a long time.

It is recency bias to ignore their history. Not to mention western media literally getting paid to spread such narrative to boost nato spending.

That post is one of the dumbest things I've ever seen Trump say. There's no way he can even believe that.

Ukraine was never going to be able to defeat Russia. Also, it's not America's problem to solve. I've never understood the people that hang Ukraine flags outside of their houses.

Yukon Cornelius said:

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Says the western media for decades. Russia was one of the largest Christian nations until recently since the Bolsheviks took over. They had the premier universities, research, music, art, literature and math for a long time.

It is recency bias to ignore their history. Not to mention western media literally getting paid to spread such narrative to boost nato spending.

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Cultures change. 70 years of communism broke them and it's ingrained. They are no closer to what they were than modern reservation Comanches are to being horsemen on the plains.

Teslag said:

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Yukon Cornelius said:

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We should have listened to somebody but it wasn't Patton. Russia isn't our enemy nor should they be.

There's a problem in Eastern Europe few are willing to actually address which has been the source of conflict in that area for hundreds of years.

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Russia is a trash country with a broken culture. They have very little in common with American values and ideals.

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Thanks in no small part to our foreign policy after 1991 vis-vis-them and China.

Not one of them, but there are regular posters here who have visited there recently and say it reminds them a little of 1980's America and the potential to be better. The space endeavor is not the only really positive work they are doing, there are similar in the maritime exploration and of course the arts. This absolute demonizing of them seems crazy.

Yukon Cornelius said:

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We should have listened to somebody but it wasn't Patton. Russia isn't our enemy nor should they be.

There's a problem in Eastern Europe few are willing to actually address which has been the source of conflict in that area for hundreds of years.

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Ahhh, there it is. The Joooooos.
You people always show your spots.

Except it was Christianity they allowed that culture to develop for a 1000 plus years. Not all is lost.

It's insane of you to have such an ego to be able to call such a people group trash like that. But you've been crying that trope for years now.

That post is about Jews? Had taken it to refer to the deep Muslim incursion in Eastern Europe and the Islam vs Orthodox clash of hundreds of years. It even lay behind what Serbia was trying to do in the 1990's.

annie88 said:

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rgvag11 said:

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That's going to make peace a little harder to achieve.

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Trump is 100% right in what he said.

You don't bow down the little corrupt, pieces of **** like Zelenskky, but of course, Biden did.

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I think you've got it backwards. Zelensky was Biden's *****, not the other way around.

Democrats hate Russia, and the Ukraine invasion gave them a politically acceptable cover to kill Russians. If Biden had been re-elected, he would have continued to force feed weapons into Ukraine until there wasn't a single Ukrainian left to hold them. I don't think Zelensky ever had much say in the way things were conducted (for an example, see all the weapons use restrictions).

Zelensky was a comedian and entertainer until 2018. He isn't some modern day machiavelli, he's just a bozo who got stuck between Russia and Biden's meat grinder offshore balancing strategy.

• 
• Trump taking a break after his first month in office!

if only we lived in a democracy with a free press that would think "maybe we should ask what happened to $100 billion dollars under Joe Biden"

alas! "democracy dies in darkness!"

Good question https://t.co/bPut87CF5X

— Elon Musk (@elonmusk) February 19, 2025

Yukon Cornelius said:

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Except it was Christianity they allowed that culture to develop for a 1000 plus years. Not all is lost.

It's insane of you to have such an ego to be able to call such a people group trash like that. But you've been crying that trope for years now.

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Lots of cultures are trash. It's just the way of the world.

Zelensky is obummer's pawn

LMCane said:

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if only we lived in a democracy with a free press that would think "maybe we should ask what happened to $100 billion dollars under Joe Biden"

alas! "democracy dies in darkness!"

Good question https://t.co/bPut87CF5X

— Elon Musk (@elonmusk) February 19, 2025

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This has been addressed. He's referring to the fact that a lot of the Ukraine aid wasn't directly given to Ukraine. It was spent domestically in support of Ukraine assistance.

Dr. Not Yet Dr. Ag said:

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Elections weren't held in 2024 for the Ukraine due to an active war going on. How are you supposed to have a fair, democratic election when people in occupied lands are not safe to go out to the polls and vote and a sizeable proportion of young men in the country are busy fighting a war? Or how about the near 20% of the population that fled due to the war?

Surely people here aren't this gullible.

Trump calling Zelensky a dictator is rich considering Putin is an actual dictator, and yet Trump remains silent on this fact. What the hell happened to conservatives in this country that so many are willing to lap up Russian talking points?

I get the argument of not wanting to send tax payer money to help Ukraine, but stating Zelensky is a dictator because no elections were held is a braindead take, and literally just a Russian state media talking point.

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While you may be right about all of this, how much money is the US sending to Russia?

What Trump says or doesn't about Putin means less than nothing. It won't affect him or US policy since we're not supporting Russia. So what's your point here?

I'm talking about Islam and more recently ATHEISM Both have plagued Eastern Europe and destroyed 2000 years of Christian civilization.

So who had the right idea in WWII?

President Eisenhower. Warning us about the military industrial complex. That has now guided foreign policy for 70 years causing war, destruction and chaos to keep the gravy train going.